Automotive temp MCU

I am looking at replacing several hardware chips with an MCU.  I
considered this once before but was looking for a lot more in the way of
IO than I am now.  Also, this time the MCU has to operate over the full
automotive temp range of -40 to +125C.  I have looked at several
manufacturers web sites, but they typically don't include temperature
range in the guides.  So I have to pick the dozen or so that are a
likely fit otherwise and then download every data sheet.  

I thought I might ask here for chips that anyone has used before that
would fit my needs.  

-40C to 125C range (of course)
ISP
18 or more IOs (after accounting for ISP)
at least two outputs must drive LEDs at 20 mA
very little RAM and Flash size requirements, they just have to be there
the flash has to be writable by the MCU (or data EEPROM will do)
temperature measurement or ADC inputs
small package; TSSOP or QFN or very small QFP (like 48 TQFP)
low price, <$3 in 1k qty
easy to buy in 100's or 1000's

I have found a PIC16F818, but the IO count is very tight.  I expect that
after setting it up for ISP it won't meet my needs.  Microchip is *very*
hard to check for automotive temp since they have literally hundreds of
chips and temperature is not listed anywhere other than in the data
sheet (and is not always noted very clearly there).  Atmel AVR chips
don't seem to come in automotive temp at all AFAICT.  Motorola makes a
few, but none seem to fit all my requirements (mainly pkg and cost
issues).  Cygnal is way too expensive and doesn't seem to be
automotive.  

Any others that I should look at?  I bet there are tons of low cost
automotive 8051s.

Ralph Malph wrote:
> I am looking at replacing several hardware chips with an MCU.  I
> considered this once before but was looking for a lot more in the way of
> IO than I am now.  Also, this time the MCU has to operate over the full
> automotive temp range of -40 to +125C.  I have looked at several
> manufacturers web sites, but they typically don't include temperature
> range in the guides.  So I have to pick the dozen or so that are a
> likely fit otherwise and then download every data sheet.  
> 
> I thought I might ask here for chips that anyone has used before that
> would fit my needs.  
> 
> -40C to 125C range (of course)
> ISP
> 18 or more IOs (after accounting for ISP)
> at least two outputs must drive LEDs at 20 mA
> very little RAM and Flash size requirements, they just have to be there
> the flash has to be writable by the MCU (or data EEPROM will do)
> temperature measurement or ADC inputs
> small package; TSSOP or QFN or very small QFP (like 48 TQFP)
> low price, <$3 in 1k qty
> easy to buy in 100's or 1000's
> 
> I have found a PIC16F818, but the IO count is very tight.  I expect that
> after setting it up for ISP it won't meet my needs.  Microchip is *very*
> hard to check for automotive temp since they have literally hundreds of
> chips and temperature is not listed anywhere other than in the data
> sheet (and is not always noted very clearly there).  Atmel AVR chips
> don't seem to come in automotive temp at all AFAICT.  Motorola makes a
> few, but none seem to fit all my requirements (mainly pkg and cost
> issues).  Cygnal is way too expensive and doesn't seem to be
> automotive.  
> 
> Any others that I should look at?  I bet there are tons of low cost
> automotive 8051s.

Something like the P89LPC932 (etc) ~$2.27  ?
comes in HQFN28 package
Abs max spec (bias) is -55'C-125'C
Std data shows Industrial specs, so I'd ask a FAE about Automotive.

Full data for Automotive for smaller uC is not so common, as the
extra test costs have more impact, so you'll find some that spec
MIX/MAX Industrial, and graph/spec typical for wider.

The reality is in actual use, a device will NOT be asked to
run at 123'C for thousands of hours.

-jg

jim granville wrote:
> 
> Ralph Malph wrote:
> > I am looking at replacing several hardware chips with an MCU.  I
> > considered this once before but was looking for a lot more in the way of
> > IO than I am now.  Also, this time the MCU has to operate over the full
> > automotive temp range of -40 to +125C.  I have looked at several
> > manufacturers web sites, but they typically don't include temperature
> > range in the guides.  So I have to pick the dozen or so that are a
> > likely fit otherwise and then download every data sheet.
> >
> > I thought I might ask here for chips that anyone has used before that
> > would fit my needs.
> >
> > -40C to 125C range (of course)
> > ISP
> > 18 or more IOs (after accounting for ISP)
> > at least two outputs must drive LEDs at 20 mA
> > very little RAM and Flash size requirements, they just have to be there
> > the flash has to be writable by the MCU (or data EEPROM will do)
> > temperature measurement or ADC inputs
> > small package; TSSOP or QFN or very small QFP (like 48 TQFP)
> > low price, <$3 in 1k qty
> > easy to buy in 100's or 1000's
> >
> > I have found a PIC16F818, but the IO count is very tight.  I expect that
> > after setting it up for ISP it won't meet my needs.  Microchip is *very*
> > hard to check for automotive temp since they have literally hundreds of
> > chips and temperature is not listed anywhere other than in the data
> > sheet (and is not always noted very clearly there).  Atmel AVR chips
> > don't seem to come in automotive temp at all AFAICT.  Motorola makes a
> > few, but none seem to fit all my requirements (mainly pkg and cost
> > issues).  Cygnal is way too expensive and doesn't seem to be
> > automotive.
> >
> > Any others that I should look at?  I bet there are tons of low cost
> > automotive 8051s.
> 
> Something like the P89LPC932 (etc) ~$2.27  ?
> comes in HQFN28 package
> Abs max spec (bias) is -55'C-125'C
> Std data shows Industrial specs, so I'd ask a FAE about Automotive.
> 
> Full data for Automotive for smaller uC is not so common, as the
> extra test costs have more impact, so you'll find some that spec
> MIX/MAX Industrial, and graph/spec typical for wider.
> 
> The reality is in actual use, a device will NOT be asked to
> run at 123'C for thousands of hours.

Thanks for the info.  The P89LPC932/3 seems to be about exactly what I
am looking for other than the temperature.  Motorola seems to be big in
automotive temps, but it is a real PITA to use their web site.  I
finally found a couple of candidates there.  I seem to recall that
Motorola does not make it easy to get a development system, you have to
shell out a few bucks.  

We'll see what Philips can do for me.  I'll contact the local rep on
Monday.

Have you considered putting the computer in an insulated box?

I did this for a couple of test projects and was impressed with how little
foam I needed. Depending on what semi's are in the box a little 'self
heating' might help as well....

just another way of looking at it....

Jay

"j.b. miller" wrote:
> 
> Have you considered putting the computer in an insulated box?
> 
> I did this for a couple of test projects and was impressed with how little
> foam I needed. Depending on what semi's are in the box a little 'self
> heating' might help as well....
> 
> just another way of looking at it....


I'm not sure what you mean.  I am not worried about the low end.  It is
the high temp end that is the problem.  I think a foam box would be more
of a problem than a cure.  

:)

Ralph Malph wrote:
> 
> I am looking at replacing several hardware chips with an MCU.  I
> considered this once before but was looking for a lot more in the way of
> IO than I am now.  Also, this time the MCU has to operate over the full
> automotive temp range of -40 to +125C.  I have looked at several
> manufacturers web sites, but they typically don't include temperature
> range in the guides.  So I have to pick the dozen or so that are a
> likely fit otherwise and then download every data sheet.
> 
> I thought I might ask here for chips that anyone has used before that
> would fit my needs.
> 
> -40C to 125C range (of course)
> ISP
> 18 or more IOs (after accounting for ISP)
> at least two outputs must drive LEDs at 20 mA
> very little RAM and Flash size requirements, they just have to be there
> the flash has to be writable by the MCU (or data EEPROM will do)
> temperature measurement or ADC inputs
> small package; TSSOP or QFN or very small QFP (like 48 TQFP)
> low price, <$3 in 1k qty
> easy to buy in 100's or 1000's


I must say that I am a bit dissapointed in Atmel in this search.  They
have a page on their web site that talks about automotive devices, but
little specific content.  I can't imagine they don't make AVRs for the
automotive market.  But maybe they do everything on a custom basis
because of the large volumes.  Still, I can't see not having even one
standard automotive temp product in the AVR line, it is such a nice
MCU.  

Anyone from Atmel care to comment?

Ralph Malph wrote:
> 
> I am looking at replacing several hardware chips with an MCU.  I
> considered this once before but was looking for a lot more in the way of
> IO than I am now.  Also, this time the MCU has to operate over the full
> automotive temp range of -40 to +125C.  I have looked at several
> manufacturers web sites, but they typically don't include temperature
> range in the guides.  So I have to pick the dozen or so that are a
> likely fit otherwise and then download every data sheet.
> 
> I thought I might ask here for chips that anyone has used before that
> would fit my needs.
> 
> -40C to 125C range (of course)
> ISP
> 18 or more IOs (after accounting for ISP)
> at least two outputs must drive LEDs at 20 mA
> very little RAM and Flash size requirements, they just have to be there
> the flash has to be writable by the MCU (or data EEPROM will do)
> temperature measurement or ADC inputs
> small package; TSSOP or QFN or very small QFP (like 48 TQFP)
> low price, <$3 in 1k qty
> easy to buy in 100's or 1000's


I think I found a good one at Microchip.  The PIC16F872 comes in
extended temperature rather than "automotive" which explains why I
couldn't find parts in a search.  It also turns out that Microchip will
make extended temp versions of chips and not put it in the data sheet or
in any selection guides.  They really do make it hard to use their
chips.  The price on this one is a bit higher that my target, but not by
much.  It meets all the above criteria except for the package, but they
have a SSOP28 which is not overly large at about 50% larger than a 28
pin QFN.  I can live with that.  I can buy them at Digikey although not
in onesies-twosies.  There minimum on most extended temp parts is what
the maker requires, 260 or so in this case.  

I would still like to have a second choice and I wouldn't mind cutting
the price a bit more (sometimes I can be a real penny pincher).  I
looked at Motorola (nothing below $4 that meets the specs), Atmel
(nothing automotive that I could find), National (nothing to the spec),
Fairchild (only very tiny parts), Analog Devices (MicroConverts are a
bit steep), Dallas (too pricey) and I even looked at Intersil (the old
RCA 1802 which has no memory on chip it seems).  

Did I miss any good candiates?  I am shy of the Asian companies because
they can be very hard to buy from, much less get support.

Ralph Malph <noone@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4014C024.EF30F1D@yahoo.com>...
> Ralph Malph wrote:
> > 
> > I am looking at replacing several hardware chips with an MCU.  I
> > considered this once before but was looking for a lot more in the way of
> > IO than I am now.  Also, this time the MCU has to operate over the full
> > automotive temp range of -40 to +125C.  I have looked at several
> > manufacturers web sites, but they typically don't include temperature
> > range in the guides.  So I have to pick the dozen or so that are a
> > likely fit otherwise and then download every data sheet.
> > 
> > I thought I might ask here for chips that anyone has used before that
> > would fit my needs.
> > 
> > -40C to 125C range (of course)
> > ISP
> > 18 or more IOs (after accounting for ISP)
> > at least two outputs must drive LEDs at 20 mA
> > very little RAM and Flash size requirements, they just have to be there
> > the flash has to be writable by the MCU (or data EEPROM will do)
> > temperature measurement or ADC inputs
> > small package; TSSOP or QFN or very small QFP (like 48 TQFP)
> > low price, <$3 in 1k qty
> > easy to buy in 100's or 1000's
> 
> 
> I think I found a good one at Microchip.  The PIC16F872 comes in
> extended temperature rather than "automotive" which explains why I
> couldn't find parts in a search.  It also turns out that Microchip will
> make extended temp versions of chips and not put it in the data sheet or
> in any selection guides.  They really do make it hard to use their
> chips.  The price on this one is a bit higher that my target, but not by
> much.  It meets all the above criteria except for the package, but they
> have a SSOP28 which is not overly large at about 50% larger than a 28
> pin QFN.  I can live with that.  I can buy them at Digikey although not
> in onesies-twosies.  There minimum on most extended temp parts is what
> the maker requires, 260 or so in this case.  
> 
> I would still like to have a second choice and I wouldn't mind cutting
> the price a bit more (sometimes I can be a real penny pincher).  I
> looked at Motorola (nothing below $4 that meets the specs), Atmel
> (nothing automotive that I could find), National (nothing to the spec),
> Fairchild (only very tiny parts), Analog Devices (MicroConverts are a
> bit steep), Dallas (too pricey) and I even looked at Intersil (the old
> RCA 1802 which has no memory on chip it seems).  
> 
> Did I miss any good candiates?  I am shy of the Asian companies because
> they can be very hard to buy from, much less get support.


You can probably get better pricing on the part if you check with
Future Electronics  http://www.futureelectronics.com/

PIC16F872-I/SS is listed at $2.90 each if you buy them 47 at a time (1
tube).  Somewhat cheaper than Digikey.

And if you just want a few to "play" with, Microchip has a pretty good
sampling policy.  I think you can get up to 3 or 5 parts per 6 month
period free.

Rob Young
rwyoung@ieee.org

Rob Young wrote:
> 
> Ralph Malph <noone@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4014C024.EF30F1D@yahoo.com>...
> > I think I found a good one at Microchip.  The PIC16F872 comes in
> > extended temperature rather than "automotive" which explains why I
> > couldn't find parts in a search.  It also turns out that Microchip will
> > make extended temp versions of chips and not put it in the data sheet or
> > in any selection guides.  They really do make it hard to use their
> > chips.  The price on this one is a bit higher that my target, but not by
> > much.  It meets all the above criteria except for the package, but they
> > have a SSOP28 which is not overly large at about 50% larger than a 28
> > pin QFN.  I can live with that.  I can buy them at Digikey although not
> > in onesies-twosies.  There minimum on most extended temp parts is what
> > the maker requires, 260 or so in this case.
> >
> > I would still like to have a second choice and I wouldn't mind cutting
> > the price a bit more (sometimes I can be a real penny pincher).  I
> > looked at Motorola (nothing below $4 that meets the specs), Atmel
> > (nothing automotive that I could find), National (nothing to the spec),
> > Fairchild (only very tiny parts), Analog Devices (MicroConverts are a
> > bit steep), Dallas (too pricey) and I even looked at Intersil (the old
> > RCA 1802 which has no memory on chip it seems).
> >
> > Did I miss any good candiates?  I am shy of the Asian companies because
> > they can be very hard to buy from, much less get support.
> 
> You can probably get better pricing on the part if you check with
> Future Electronics  http://www.futureelectronics.com/
> 
> PIC16F872-I/SS is listed at $2.90 each if you buy them 47 at a time (1
> tube).  Somewhat cheaper than Digikey.
> 
> And if you just want a few to "play" with, Microchip has a pretty good
> sampling policy.  I think you can get up to 3 or 5 parts per 6 month
> period free.

Thanks for the info.  But I already checked with most of the major
distributors.  I also checked with Freetradezone.com who can search
multiple vendors.  The inventory at Future does not do me much good
since I will be working with  the -E/SS parts rather than the -I/SS
parts.  Although I would prefer to work with the /ML package that the
872 does not seem to come in.  I might try to use the PIC16F818 in the
-E/ML version as it is about the same, but has fewer IO.  But if I use
the smaller 818 in the /ML package and need the extra IO, I will be
stuck!  We'll see how confident I am in the IO count as the design
progresses.  

I am a bit surprised that no one has been able to point me toward
another maker or two of automotive MCUs.  I guess the pickin's are
pretty slim out there.

hi, 125deg used to be the military grade, have things changed while I wasn't
looking? Can't you get away with 85deg?