AFAIK there are no laws that regulate automotive software, specifically -- just threats of lawsuits if a car kills someone, and systems-level requirements that cover cases like Volkwagen and their dirty diesels. Am I right? Or are there safety (or other) regulations that extend their tentacles specifically into automotive software, the way DO-128 does in avionics, and the various IEC standards do with medical devices? -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com I'm looking for work -- see my website!
Automotive Software and the Law
Started by ●March 14, 2017
Reply by ●March 14, 20172017-03-14
On 2017-03-14 7:27 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:> AFAIK there are no laws that regulate automotive software, > specifically -- just threats of lawsuits if a car kills someone, and > systems-level requirements that cover cases like Volkwagen and their > dirty diesels. > > Am I right? Or are there safety (or other) regulations that extend > their tentacles specifically into automotive software, the way DO-128 > does in avionics, and the various IEC standards do with medical > devices? >As you eluded to there is quite a few system level requirements. For the most part it is a little like DO-128 lite. Most of the system regulations are EPA related broadly in three categories requirements, testing and documentation. There are a lot of industry related agreement on industry wide device compatibility much of it based around various standards. Contact me offline and I probably point you to specific documents that affect what you are doing. My personal knowledge is all most all power-train specific. w..
Reply by ●March 15, 20172017-03-15
On 14/03/2017 23:27, Tim Wescott wrote:> AFAIK there are no laws that regulate automotive software, specifically > -- just threats of lawsuits if a car kills someone, and systems-level > requirements that cover cases like Volkwagen and their dirty diesels. > > Am I right? Or are there safety (or other) regulations that extend their > tentacles specifically into automotive software, the way DO-128 does in > avionics, and the various IEC standards do with medical devices? >Here is one for FPGA/ASIC designs: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/mentor-graphics-achieves-iso-26262-certification-for-questa-product-line-tool-qualification-report-300422187.html "Today's safety-critical automotive products require development and tool flows which are proven safe in accordance with ISO 26262," said Gudrun Neumann, software & automation team leader for SGS-TÜV Saar. "SGS-TÜV Saar certification gives OEMs and suppliers confidence that qualification reports for software tools used in the development of safety-critical products have been properly assessed in accordance with ISO 26262, reducing the costly efforts needed for tool qualification." Hans www.ht-lab.com
Reply by ●March 15, 20172017-03-15
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 11:18:37 +0000, HT-Lab wrote:> On 14/03/2017 23:27, Tim Wescott wrote: >> AFAIK there are no laws that regulate automotive software, specifically >> -- just threats of lawsuits if a car kills someone, and systems-level >> requirements that cover cases like Volkwagen and their dirty diesels. >> >> Am I right? Or are there safety (or other) regulations that extend >> their tentacles specifically into automotive software, the way DO-128 >> does in avionics, and the various IEC standards do with medical >> devices? >> >> > Here is one for FPGA/ASIC designs: > > http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/mentor-graphics-achieves-iso-26262-certification-for-questa-product-line-tool-qualification- report-300422187.html> > "Today's safety-critical automotive products require development and > tool flows which are proven safe in accordance with ISO 26262," said > Gudrun Neumann, software & automation team leader for SGS-TÜV Saar. > "SGS-TÜV Saar certification gives OEMs and suppliers confidence that > qualification reports for software tools used in the development of > safety-critical products have been properly assessed in accordance with > ISO 26262, reducing the costly efforts needed for tool qualification."Thanks Hans! Actually, it looks like ISO 26262 covers anything electronic, including the software. Do you know if it's been adopted into law anywhere? -- Tim Wescott Control systems, embedded software and circuit design I'm looking for work! See my website if you're interested http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply by ●March 15, 20172017-03-15
On 15/03/2017 16:36, Tim Wescott wrote: ..> > Thanks Hans! Actually, it looks like ISO 26262 covers anything > electronic, including the software. > > Do you know if it's been adopted into law anywhere? >Hi Tim, I assume with law you mean if this is the standard that all automotive suppliers/manufacturers tried to adhere to (similar to DO-254 for the avionics market), I so then I believe this is indeed the case. However, I have no experience with this standard, I just play with FPGA's day in day out... Regards, Hans. www.ht-lab.com
Reply by ●March 15, 20172017-03-15
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 17:12:28 +0000, HT-Lab wrote:> On 15/03/2017 16:36, Tim Wescott wrote: > .. >> >> Thanks Hans! Actually, it looks like ISO 26262 covers anything >> electronic, including the software. >> >> Do you know if it's been adopted into law anywhere? >> > Hi Tim, > > I assume with law you mean if this is the standard that all automotive > suppliers/manufacturers tried to adhere to (similar to DO-254 for the > avionics market), I so then I believe this is indeed the case. > > However, I have no experience with this standard, I just play with > FPGA's day in day out...Actually by "law" I mean "law". Are there regulations in any country or other polity that require companies manufacturing or selling automobiles to adhere to the standard before they can legally sell their wares? Is there anywhere in the world where not following ISO 26262 will have a cop or a government lawyer knocking on your door? Is there anywhere in the world where, before you can offer a newly-designed car for sale, you have to show documentation that proves that you've followed the standard, or regulations based on the standard? -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com I'm looking for work -- see my website!
Reply by ●March 15, 20172017-03-15
> Actually by "law" I mean "law". Are there regulations in any country or > other polity that require companies manufacturing or selling automobiles > to adhere to the standard before they can legally sell their wares? Is > there anywhere in the world where not following ISO 26262 will have a cop > or a government lawyer knocking on your door? Is there anywhere in the > world where, before you can offer a newly-designed car for sale, you have > to show documentation that proves that you've followed the standard, or > regulations based on the standard?Here's a cynical response: No, no, and no; not until somebody is killed. Straying off topic, I personally believe that lack of gov regulation is the single biggest weakness of the technology. Imagine what will happen when a steering wheel free car is involved in a fatal crash. The entire fleet will be grounded. JJS
Reply by ●March 15, 20172017-03-15
Tim Wescott wrote:> Actually by "law" I mean "law". Are there regulations in any country or > other polity that require companies manufacturing or selling automobiles > to adhere to the standard before they can legally sell their wares?In Denmark a car model has to be approved by the authorities before it can be sold. The approval is related to safety and pollution, but I'm not sure if there is a formal requirement that the safety argument is based on ISO 26262. Jacob -- "people who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing rocks -- especially at those who don't live in glass houses"
Reply by ●March 15, 20172017-03-15
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 11:48:13 -0700, John Speth wrote:>> Actually by "law" I mean "law". Are there regulations in any country >> or other polity that require companies manufacturing or selling >> automobiles to adhere to the standard before they can legally sell >> their wares? Is there anywhere in the world where not following ISO >> 26262 will have a cop or a government lawyer knocking on your door? Is >> there anywhere in the world where, before you can offer a >> newly-designed car for sale, you have to show documentation that proves >> that you've followed the standard, or regulations based on the >> standard? > > Here's a cynical response: No, no, and no; not until somebody is killed.Well, yes, I'm pretty sure that's the case in the US. I know there's regulations governing safety features behaving correctly at some point in the process, but I suspect there isn't anything that governs the kind of stuff that can cause faults like Toyota's sudden unintended acceleration incidents.> Straying off topic, I personally believe that lack of gov regulation is > the single biggest weakness of the technology. Imagine what will happen > when a steering wheel free car is involved in a fatal crash. The entire > fleet will be grounded.Well, lack of proper care in the execution, which problem may only be fixed with government regulation. The entire Toyota fleet wasn't grounded even after several (possibly dozens of) deaths worldwide from unintended acceleration; I'm not sure that steer-by-wire or even autonomous vehicles will be stopped. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com I'm looking for work -- see my website!
Reply by ●March 15, 20172017-03-15
On 2017-03-15 6:31 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:>> Straying off topic, I personally believe that lack of gov >> regulation is the single biggest weakness of the technology. >> Imagine what will happen when a steering wheel free car is involved >> in a fatal crash. The entire fleet will be grounded. > Well, lack of proper care in the execution, which problem may only be > fixed with government regulation. > > The entire Toyota fleet wasn't grounded even after several (possibly > dozens of) deaths worldwide from unintended acceleration; I'm not > sure that steer-by-wire or even autonomous vehicles will be stopped.It is one thing to provide non critical add on's when it is part of the critical components with real consequences. I believe that the Toyota problem was component failure without an appropriate fail-safe mode even though there was testimony that given the following 24 conditions or so it could have been software. Another example of this type of failure is the GM ignition switches. It has been a long time since we have seen a fleet shutdown but mandatory few day recalls for ranges of serial numbers are actually quite common. The ability to flash software has made a real difference in a lot of area's. There are often several versions of software depending on where the vehicle is located. w..