Low cost PCB layout software

I am looking for low cost PCB layout software.  My designs are not
overly complex, and are on small boards, but I will be using very small
parts and features ~0.4mm/0.016" pitch, .006"/.006" trace/space.  I have
looked at a couple of web sites that list free software and have found
two types of packages; the no strings attached open source packages that
are not very mature or run on xNIX (and not windows) or the PCB fab
house supplied packages that tie you to getting your boards from them.  

Clearly I need something that actually works, so most of the truely free
packages are not viable.  The PCB package from
http://bach.ece.jhu.edu/~haceaton/pcb/ seems to work, but is not
supported under windows.  It is not clear if it will run under Cygwin. 
I guess I could dedicate a machine to PCB design and run Linix, but I am
pretty sure I would end up creating problems from my lack of experience
with *NIX.  

I looked at a few of the PCB vendor packages and have done one design
and ordered boards.  It was fairly low risk since it only cost $59
including shipping from expressPCB.  But these boards have no soldermask
or silk screen.  I can live without silk screen, but the solder mask is
important when using fine pitch parts.  In general, I am not happy being
tied to a vendor and having to duplicate the layout work to use a
different vendor.  Reentering a schematic is no big deal, but layout is
very time intensive and each tool is toally different.  

So that brings us to the commercial layout packages.  Most of them are
several kilobucks and out of my budget.  I found a list at
http://www.olimex.com/pcb/dtools.html of a lot of packages, but there is
no real info on them.  So that is why I am here.  Can I ask for opinions
on what tools will give the best benifit for the cost of the low end
tools?  I hate to spend even $100 on a tool that I am not sure I will
want to continue to use, but if I have confidence that it will be a good
tool, I would not mind paying $500.  

So what are my options and how good are they for fine pitch work, up to
6 layers?  

And does anyone have any experience with TCI3?  It seems to be a free
tool, but when I follow the link, the page is in French.  Anyone know if
the tool can be used by English speakers (and readers)?  Any English
docs?  I guess I could learn metric dimensions; 0.15 trace - 0.15 space
:).

Ralph Malph wrote:
<snip>

I have had three packages I have purchased over the years.

Two are no logner available.  :-(

All PCB packages will have a different user interface. This is
really a pain. When you get use to useing one package, the same
vendor will change their interface, or they will go under.

So, try some of the freeware packages just to get a feel for
whats out there. Yes, you will burn up a lot of time.

I have just starting useing E.A.G.L.E software.
<http://www.cadsoft.de/index.htm>

Their demo version will only allow you two layers and a small PCB,
but it does work and you can send the Gerber files to anyone you like.

If you find anything you like, reply here so we can get a feel for
how you evaluated those packages.

hamilton

"Ralph Malph" <noone@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3FE89C8B.7FE17366@yahoo.com...
> I am looking for low cost PCB layout software.  My designs are not
> overly complex, and are on small boards, but I will be using very small
> parts and features ~0.4mm/0.016" pitch, .006"/.006" trace/space.

Laying out boards is such a pain in the neck. As the layout s/w becomes more
"featureful", the work becomes more difficult and more time consuming.

My opinion is that it isn't worth doing these things on your own. I had
olimex.com do a several board layouts for me and the boards came out fine.
They can do the manufacturing, too, at a good price, and I'm pretty sure
they can provide you with gerbers.

There are a lot of other places to go for board layout, for sure. I just
mention this place because I've worked with them before and they did a good
job.

Mike

Ralph Malph wrote:

> I am looking for low cost PCB layout software.  My designs are not
> overly complex, and are on small boards, but I will be using very small
> parts and features ~0.4mm/0.016" pitch, .006"/.006" trace/space.  I have
> looked at a couple of web sites that list free software and have found
> two types of packages; the no strings attached open source packages that
> are not very mature or run on xNIX (and not windows) or the PCB fab
> house supplied packages that tie you to getting your boards from them.  

Check out Protel Autotrax and Easytrax.  They are at the
bottom of the page under freeware:

http://www.protel.com/resources/downloads/

I started my company with Autotrax when I couldn't afford
anything else.  If you can find yourself an early dos
version of Orcad, Autotrax will take it's netlist.

Autotrax runs under DOS, but that shouldn't be a big
hassle if money is your major concern.

Hi,

> I am looking for low cost PCB layout software.  My designs are not
> overly complex, and are on small boards, but I will be using very small
> parts and features ~0.4mm/0.016" pitch, .006"/.006" trace/space.  I have

Did you evaluate EAGLE (www.cadsoftusa.com)? It is available for
Windows and Linux, it is very mature, and the current version has
(finally) added support for blind/buried vias, making it much better
suited for 6-layer boards and MBGA. You can't evaluate that in the
free version (limited to two layers) but trust me, it works :) Eagle
is always the package I recommend when people ask here for
cost-effective PCB layout tools. It even has an autorouter which is
adequate for most simple jobs.

Pitch is neither here nor there, Eagle can handle any trace
width/spacing you care to name.

The cheapest version is $50 but it won't do your layer requirement
(basically, it is just permission to use the free version for
commercial projects). But the pricing of the full package is very
reasonable compared to similarly featured products. And the Cadsoft
newsgroups are very active, so there is good peer support.

> are not very mature or run on xNIX (and not windows) or the PCB fab
> house supplied packages that tie you to getting your boards from them.  

These packages are evil. Don't use them.

Jim Stewart wrote:
> Ralph Malph wrote:
> 
>> I am looking for low cost PCB layout software.  My designs are not
>> overly complex, and are on small boards, but I will be using very small
>> parts and features ~0.4mm/0.016" pitch, .006"/.006" trace/space.  I have
>> looked at a couple of web sites that list free software and have found
>> two types of packages; the no strings attached open source packages that
>> are not very mature or run on xNIX (and not windows) or the PCB fab
>> house supplied packages that tie you to getting your boards from them.  
> 
> 
> Check out Protel Autotrax and Easytrax.  They are at the
> bottom of the page under freeware:
> 
> http://www.protel.com/resources/downloads/
> 
> I started my company with Autotrax when I couldn't afford
> anything else.  If you can find yourself an early dos
> version of Orcad, Autotrax will take it's netlist.
> 
> Autotrax runs under DOS, but that shouldn't be a big
> hassle if money is your major concern.
> 
> 
I agree; give Protel Autotrax a go.

There are some higher resolution display drivers available.
It runs fine DOS full screen in windows.

The biggest problem I found is that display zoom; it would be nice to go 
another level or two in for very fine work (0.001 tweeking). It doesn't 
support burried vias and the copper pour could be better, but it's OK 
for fine pitch double sided boards.

I purchased Autotrax when it was first released probably 15 years ago 
and still use it. Autotrax can be used very quickly from the keyboard 
with little mousing. The manual editing, draging etc. is quick and easy. 
It's also quite easy to create new component footprints.

I've recently tried other packages looking for a replacement but haven't 
picked one yet. To get the same features you end up with a bit more at 
prices starting at $1000 to $1500 USD, and a windows interface that's 
quite different to Autotrax and I find slower.

Paul Bealing
www.pmb.co.nz

I've used Eagle from CADSoft for a few months now and have been
generally pleased.  The trial version is free for download, but the
board size is limited and the auto router dosen't work.  This can be
"fixed" by paying a resonable registration fee of 50 USD, or by other
means.  Their website is:

http://www.cadsoftusa.com/

-J


Ralph Malph <noone@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3FE89C8B.7FE17366@yahoo.com>...
> I am looking for low cost PCB layout software.  My designs are not
> overly complex, and are on small boards, but I will be using very small
> parts and features ~0.4mm/0.016" pitch, .006"/.006" trace/space.  I have
> looked at a couple of web sites that list free software and have found
> two types of packages; the no strings attached open source packages that
> are not very mature or run on xNIX (and not windows) or the PCB fab
> house supplied packages that tie you to getting your boards from them.  
> 
> Clearly I need something that actually works, so most of the truely free
> packages are not viable.  The PCB package from
> http://bach.ece.jhu.edu/~haceaton/pcb/ seems to work, but is not
> supported under windows.  It is not clear if it will run under Cygwin. 
> I guess I could dedicate a machine to PCB design and run Linix, but I am
> pretty sure I would end up creating problems from my lack of experience
> with *NIX.  
> 
> I looked at a few of the PCB vendor packages and have done one design
> and ordered boards.  It was fairly low risk since it only cost $59
> including shipping from expressPCB.  But these boards have no soldermask
> or silk screen.  I can live without silk screen, but the solder mask is
> important when using fine pitch parts.  In general, I am not happy being
> tied to a vendor and having to duplicate the layout work to use a
> different vendor.  Reentering a schematic is no big deal, but layout is
> very time intensive and each tool is toally different.  
> 
> So that brings us to the commercial layout packages.  Most of them are
> several kilobucks and out of my budget.  I found a list at
> http://www.olimex.com/pcb/dtools.html of a lot of packages, but there is
> no real info on them.  So that is why I am here.  Can I ask for opinions
> on what tools will give the best benifit for the cost of the low end
> tools?  I hate to spend even $100 on a tool that I am not sure I will
> want to continue to use, but if I have confidence that it will be a good
> tool, I would not mind paying $500.  
> 
> So what are my options and how good are they for fine pitch work, up to
> 6 layers?  
> 
> And does anyone have any experience with TCI3?  It seems to be a free
> tool, but when I follow the link, the page is in French.  Anyone know if
> the tool can be used by English speakers (and readers)?  Any English
> docs?  I guess I could learn metric dimensions; 0.15 trace - 0.15 space
> :).

Ralph Malph threw some tea leaves on the floor
 and this is what they wrote:

> I am looking for low cost PCB layout software.  My designs are not
> overly complex, and are on small boards, but I will be using very small
> parts and features ~0.4mm/0.016" pitch, .006"/.006" trace/space.  I have
> looked at a couple of web sites that list free software and have found
> two types of packages; the no strings attached open source packages that
> are not very mature or run on xNIX (and not windows) or the PCB fab
> house supplied packages that tie you to getting your boards from them.  
>
> Clearly I need something that actually works, so most of the truely free
> packages are not viable.  The PCB package from
> http://bach.ece.jhu.edu/~haceaton/pcb/ seems to work,

It definitely does work, I've been using it for at least 5 years.

> but is not
> supported under windows.

That's because it was developed on GNU/Linux.

> It is not clear if it will run under Cygwin. 
> I guess I could dedicate a machine to PCB design and run Linix, but I am
> pretty sure I would end up creating problems from my lack of experience
> with *NIX.

I think if you can lay out pcbs, you can handle simple file operations
with GNU/Linux, it really isn't hard.

PCB is "click and grunt" just like any other GUI cad app.

I have some pics of PCB at work on my site:-
http://milkstone.d2.net.au/software/pcb.html

-- 
              Kind Regards from Terry 
    My Desktop is powered by GNU/LinuX, Gentoo-1.4_rc2   
         New Homepage: http://milkstone.d2.net.au/          
 ** Linux Registration Number: 103931,  http://counter.li.org **

Ralph Malph wrote:
> I am looking for low cost PCB layout software.  My designs are not
> overly complex, and are on small boards, but I will be using very small
> parts and features ~0.4mm/0.016" pitch, .006"/.006" trace/space.  I have
> looked at a couple of web sites that list free software and have found
> two types of packages; the no strings attached open source packages that
> are not very mature or run on xNIX (and not windows) or the PCB fab
> house supplied packages that tie you to getting your boards from them.  
> 
> Clearly I need something that actually works, so most of the truely free
> packages are not viable.  The PCB package from
> http://bach.ece.jhu.edu/~haceaton/pcb/ seems to work, but is not
> supported under windows.  It is not clear if it will run under Cygwin. 
> I guess I could dedicate a machine to PCB design and run Linix, but I am
> pretty sure I would end up creating problems from my lack of experience
> with *NIX.  
> 
> I looked at a few of the PCB vendor packages and have done one design
> and ordered boards.  It was fairly low risk since it only cost $59
> including shipping from expressPCB.  But these boards have no soldermask
> or silk screen.  I can live without silk screen, but the solder mask is
> important when using fine pitch parts.  In general, I am not happy being
> tied to a vendor and having to duplicate the layout work to use a
> different vendor.  Reentering a schematic is no big deal, but layout is
> very time intensive and each tool is toally different.  
> 
> So that brings us to the commercial layout packages.  Most of them are
> several kilobucks and out of my budget.  I found a list at
> http://www.olimex.com/pcb/dtools.html of a lot of packages, but there is
> no real info on them.  So that is why I am here.  Can I ask for opinions
> on what tools will give the best benifit for the cost of the low end
> tools?  I hate to spend even $100 on a tool that I am not sure I will
> want to continue to use, but if I have confidence that it will be a good
> tool, I would not mind paying $500.  
> 
> So what are my options and how good are they for fine pitch work, up to
> 6 layers?  
> 
> And does anyone have any experience with TCI3?  It seems to be a free
> tool, but when I follow the link, the page is in French.  Anyone know if
> the tool can be used by English speakers (and readers)?  Any English
> docs?  I guess I could learn metric dimensions; 0.15 trace - 0.15 space
> :).

Have a loom at EasyPC: http://www.numberone.com

It's very easy to use and is inexpensive. I used it for years.

Leon
-- 
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Email: aqzf13@dsl.pipex.com
My low-cost Philips LPC210x ARM development system:
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller/lpc2104.html

> generally pleased.  The trial version is free for download, but the
> board size is limited and the auto router dosen't work.  This can be
> "fixed" by paying a resonable registration fee of 50 USD, or by other

The autorouter is disabled in eval versions now? That is a new twist
for 4.11. Download 4.09 - it's still available on their ftp site, and
the autorouter works in eval mode.