Good Hardware Tools

I will be working from home to help an open ventilator project and want to acquire some tools.  I've needed a new scope for some time, but want an attached scope using the PC for a display.  They are no cheaper than the full scopes and good ones may be more expensive.  The only ones I've found that are decent are the Pico Technology scopes.  Rather pricey.  

Then there are small logic analyzers, again on the PC.  One I've seen used is good and not too pricey, but I don't recall the name.  My only issue with it is that it doesn't have a Linux driver.  I keep wanting to switch to Linux, but this is the sort of thing that holds me back.  Ah, found it.  LogicPort by Intronix.  Not a bad device, but no scope. 

This one is interesting.  I'm thinking about the $1100 model, MSO-9201 w/LAPOD meaning it has a 12 bit logic analyzer and not just the scope.  Anyone use this?  Link Instruments 

https://www.linkinstruments.com/mso9201.htm

It includes the probes and serial analysis software apparently along with various math operations like spectrum analysis along with data logging.  Again no Linux, but not even Win10!  

$325 will get you a 60 MHz bandwidth little brother with an 8 channel logic analyzer.  If I can't find anyone who has these devices I think this one is less of a risk and likely the right choice anyway.  Other than the much more limited buffer size it's probably enough for my needs anyway.  

Then little brother has a little brother for $249 with only one input channel, but adds a pattern generator (on the logic analyzer port) and TDR.  I think I'd still want the two channels.  A one channel scope is rather limited. 

I wonder how good the software is.  I got a Hantek scope once and couldn't even get the software to run.  Zero support...  ZERO!  I got a full refund because they couldn't track the package and I still have the piece of junk.  It's just an MCU on a serial port.  

-- 

  Rick C.

  - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
  - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> writes:
> I got a Hantek scope once and couldn't even get the software to run.
> Zero support...  ZERO!  I got a full refund because they couldn't
> track the package and I still have the piece of junk.  

Wow, I was gonna say I don't know much about scopes but an online
acquaintenance recommended a particular Hantek scope a while back (I
forget which model).

In general, expect all software coming from hardware companies to be
crap.  Find something with good independent FOSS support.

Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> writes:
> > I got a Hantek scope once and couldn't even get the software to run.
> > Zero support...  ZERO!  I got a full refund because they couldn't
> > track the package and I still have the piece of junk.  
> 
> Wow, I was gonna say I don't know much about scopes but an online
> acquaintenance recommended a particular Hantek scope a while back (I
> forget which model).
> 
> In general, expect all software coming from hardware companies to be
> crap.  Find something with good independent FOSS support.

On logic analysers, we have a Saleae:
https://www.saleae.com/

It's not cheap but the software is fairly nice (and runs on Linux).  It's also supported
by Sigrok, which is an open source logic analyser program for Linux, that
supports a wide range of analyser (digital/analogue) hardware.

Sigrok even supports cheap CY7C68013A modules like this one, that you can
use as crude logic analysers:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CY7C68013A-56-EZ-USB-FX2LP-USB2-0-Develope-Board-Module-Logic-Analyzer-EEPROM-NW/153551608305
(that gives you 24MHz unbuffered sampling, for as long as your PC can stream
out the data in realtime)

For scopes, I often prefer to have the immediacy of having a separate
display with knobs to twiddle - having to use a PC app would get in the way, I
think.  Most of the cost is in the analogue and sampling frontend, so the
display doesn't cost very much extra.

Theo

On 10/30/20 03:17, Rick C wrote:
> I will be working from home to help an open ventilator project and want to acquire some tools.  I've needed a new scope for some time, but want an attached scope using the PC for a display.  They are no cheaper than the full scopes and good ones may be more expensive.  The only ones I've found that are decent are the Pico Technology scopes.  Rather pricey.
>
> Then there are small logic analyzers, again on the PC.  One I've seen used is good and not too pricey, but I don't recall the name.  My only issue with it is that it doesn't have a Linux driver.  I keep wanting to switch to Linux, but this is the sort of thing that holds me back.  Ah, found it.  LogicPort by Intronix.  Not a bad device, but no scope.
>
> This one is interesting.  I'm thinking about the $1100 model, MSO-9201 w/LAPOD meaning it has a 12 bit logic analyzer and not just the scope.  Anyone use this?  Link Instruments
>
> https://www.linkinstruments.com/mso9201.htm
>
> It includes the probes and serial analysis software apparently along with various math operations like spectrum analysis along with data logging.  Again no Linux, but not even Win10!
>
> $325 will get you a 60 MHz bandwidth little brother with an 8 channel logic analyzer.  If I can't find anyone who has these devices I think this one is less of a risk and likely the right choice anyway.  Other than the much more limited buffer size it's probably enough for my needs anyway.
>
> Then little brother has a little brother for $249 with only one input channel, but adds a pattern generator (on the logic analyzer port) and TDR.  I think I'd still want the two channels.  A one channel scope is rather limited.
>
> I wonder how good the software is.  I got a Hantek scope once and couldn't even get the software to run.  Zero support...  ZERO!  I got a full refund because they couldn't track the package and I still have the piece of junk.  It's just an MCU on a serial port.
>

Took a different approach here, never satisfied with second rate test
gear, not have the budget for the sort of kit I would want to use and
have respect for. Built a up a lab over the years buying s/hand HP,
Tek etc and fixing up where needed. Also, multi function gear is always
a compromise and often ends up doing nothing very well. If you are a
good engineer, you won't be happy with it :-).

Most of the kit here is a decade old or much more and some of it is
big and klunky, but once fixed up can be relied upon to work
whenever needed. At current prices, could spend 100K on test gear and 
still not have more capability. Ymmv, of course...

Chris

On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:17:16 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
> ... want an attached scope using the PC for a display.

I needed a new scope a couple years ago and started down this route.
But I really didn't find anything PC-attached and great, so ended up
buying a used Keysight MSO-X 3054T. This saves screen-shots to USB stick,
which is what I most need for engineering documentation, and has decode
for SPI, I2C, CAN, LIN, etc. (decoder is an option, make sure you don't buy
a used scope without this stuff). I'm REALLY happy with this scope/analyzer.
They are available overhauled/used from Keysight.
The decoder is great for debugging drivers, but can't log much stuff
if you need that for debugging. So...

I just received (Friday) an IKAlogic SP209i (PC-attached) logic analyzer.
This can decode just about anything. I haven't had a chance to fire
it up and see how it does on some buses here (RS-485 etc). It has
programmable scripts so you can add your own decoding and logging.
PC software is open source.

Hope that helps!
Best Regards, Dave

On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 8:56:33 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:17:16 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
> > ... want an attached scope using the PC for a display.
> 
> I needed a new scope a couple years ago and started down this route.
> But I really didn't find anything PC-attached and great, so ended up
> buying a used Keysight MSO-X 3054T. This saves screen-shots to USB stick,
> which is what I most need for engineering documentation, and has decode
> for SPI, I2C, CAN, LIN, etc. (decoder is an option, make sure you don't buy
> a used scope without this stuff). I'm REALLY happy with this scope/analyzer.
> They are available overhauled/used from Keysight.
> The decoder is great for debugging drivers, but can't log much stuff
> if you need that for debugging. So...
> 
> I just received (Friday) an IKAlogic SP209i (PC-attached) logic analyzer.
> This can decode just about anything. I haven't had a chance to fire
> it up and see how it does on some buses here (RS-485 etc). It has
> programmable scripts so you can add your own decoding and logging.
> PC software is open source.
> 
> Hope that helps!
> Best Regards, Dave

Thanks.  Partly I want an attached scope so it is very portable.  I think I've given up on shoving anything else in my computer bag, but it would be nice to have a brief case or second computer bag with all the tools I need for debugging boards.  

The IKAlogic is interesting, but a bit pricey for 9 bits of logic analyzer.  One thing I realize it is it's all about the software.  If the UI is not so good you won't be happy.  As someone has said, they like having knobs to twiddle.  I seem to recall reading about someone having a knob bank that would work with one of the attached scopes.  Too distant a memory to recall any details.  It was a nice job, but the knobs were all generic and uniform.  Maybe it was a commercial, generic unit, but I think he built it himself.  Not sure how it was interfaced to the software unless the software was open source. 

-- 

  Rick C.

  + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
  + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 10/29/2020 23:17, Rick C wrote:
> I will be working from home to help an open ventilator project and want to acquire some tools.  I've needed a new scope for some time, but want an attached scope using the PC for a display.  They are no cheaper than the full scopes and good ones may be more expensive.  The only ones I've found that are decent are the Pico Technology scopes.  Rather pricey.
>
> Then there are small logic analyzers, again on the PC.  One I've seen used is good and not too pricey, but I don't recall the name.  My only issue with it is that it doesn't have a Linux driver.  I keep wanting to switch to Linux, but this is the sort of thing that holds me back.  Ah, found it.  LogicPort by Intronix.  Not a bad device, but no scope.
>
> This one is interesting.  I'm thinking about the $1100 model, MSO-9201 w/LAPOD meaning it has a 12 bit logic analyzer and not just the scope.  Anyone use this?  Link Instruments
>
> https://www.linkinstruments.com/mso9201.htm
>
> It includes the probes and serial analysis software apparently along with various math operations like spectrum analysis along with data logging.  Again no Linux, but not even Win10!
>
> $325 will get you a 60 MHz bandwidth little brother with an 8 channel logic analyzer.  If I can't find anyone who has these devices I think this one is less of a risk and likely the right choice anyway.  Other than the much more limited buffer size it's probably enough for my needs anyway.
>
> Then little brother has a little brother for $249 with only one input channel, but adds a pattern generator (on the logic analyzer port) and TDR.  I think I'd still want the two channels.  A one channel scope is rather limited.
>
> I wonder how good the software is.  I got a Hantek scope once and couldn't even get the software to run.  Zero support...  ZERO!  I got a full refund because they couldn't track the package and I still have the piece of junk.  It's just an MCU on a serial port.
>
I purchased a Labnation Smart Scope a few years back.  I've run it under 
Win 7 and Win 10 but it does have software for Debian and Ubuntu listed. 
$229.  https://www.lab-nation.com/#specifications
Best wishes,
--Phil

On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 2:54:13 PM UTC-4, Philip Martel wrote:
> On 10/29/2020 23:17, Rick C wrote:
> > I will be working from home to help an open ventilator project and want to acquire some tools.  I've needed a new scope for some time, but want an attached scope using the PC for a display.  They are no cheaper than the full scopes and good ones may be more expensive.  The only ones I've found that are decent are the Pico Technology scopes.  Rather pricey.
> >
> > Then there are small logic analyzers, again on the PC.  One I've seen used is good and not too pricey, but I don't recall the name.  My only issue with it is that it doesn't have a Linux driver.  I keep wanting to switch to Linux, but this is the sort of thing that holds me back.  Ah, found it.  LogicPort by Intronix.  Not a bad device, but no scope.
> >
> > This one is interesting.  I'm thinking about the $1100 model, MSO-9201 w/LAPOD meaning it has a 12 bit logic analyzer and not just the scope.  Anyone use this?  Link Instruments
> >
> > https://www.linkinstruments.com/mso9201.htm
> >
> > It includes the probes and serial analysis software apparently along with various math operations like spectrum analysis along with data logging.  Again no Linux, but not even Win10!
> >
> > $325 will get you a 60 MHz bandwidth little brother with an 8 channel logic analyzer.  If I can't find anyone who has these devices I think this one is less of a risk and likely the right choice anyway.  Other than the much more limited buffer size it's probably enough for my needs anyway.
> >
> > Then little brother has a little brother for $249 with only one input channel, but adds a pattern generator (on the logic analyzer port) and TDR.  I think I'd still want the two channels.  A one channel scope is rather limited.
> >
> > I wonder how good the software is.  I got a Hantek scope once and couldn't even get the software to run.  Zero support...  ZERO!  I got a full refund because they couldn't track the package and I still have the piece of junk.  It's just an MCU on a serial port.
> >
> I purchased a Labnation Smart Scope a few years back.  I've run it under 
> Win 7 and Win 10 but it does have software for Debian and Ubuntu listed. 
> $229.  https://www.lab-nation.com/#specifications
> Best wishes,
> --Phil

Also iOS and Android.  Interesting.  Only 30 MHz though.  $230 seems a bit much for 30 MHz, but it does seem quality.  They sell a nice looking digital cable for $35, but give a crappy Dupont, separate pin connectors cable with the unit.  

I'll think about this.  I really wanted something with a bit faster scope.  At least the logic analyzer runs at 100 MHz.  

Thanks, 

-- 

  Rick C.

  -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
  -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

In article <56b82e62-c2f8-4523-9e9f-2d5ba7d32f13o@googlegroups.com>,
Rick C  <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 2:54:13 PM UTC-4, Philip Martel wrote:
>> On 10/29/2020 23:17, Rick C wrote:
>> > I will be working from home to help an open ventilator project and
>want to acquire some tools.  I've needed a new scope for some time, but
>want an attached scope using the PC for a display.  They are no cheaper
>than the full scopes and good ones may be more expensive.  The only ones
>I've found that are decent are the Pico Technology scopes.  Rather
>pricey.
>> >
>> > Then there are small logic analyzers, again on the PC.  One I've
>seen used is good and not too pricey, but I don't recall the name.  My
>only issue with it is that it doesn't have a Linux driver.  I keep
>wanting to switch to Linux, but this is the sort of thing that holds me
>back.  Ah, found it.  LogicPort by Intronix.  Not a bad device, but no
>scope.

I've had good luck in the past buying used HP 20+ year old test equipment on
ebay.  (It was named HP, then Agilent, now Keysight, which is kinda handy
when searching, you get to pick the age of the equipment through the name).
The HP16500C supports sending the display over X windows (so you can control
it from your desk), and I think it supports NFS mounting so you can get
at the trace data.  It supports 5 plug in cards.  The 16534a is the
2GSa/s 500MHz scope card which gives you two probes, and is about $500 or so.
It's excellent.  The 16555A cards are logic analyzer cards with 1 million
states deep at 125MHz (250MHz if you lose half the channels, and 500MHz fixed
sampling clock which is useful to see which signals are transitioning
later/earlier than others on a bus).  HP Logic Analyzers have very good
triggering and selective trace capture ability.  Try to get the
16555A already installed as a group in a chassis since there are special
connectors to "gang" them together which you'll want.  The 16500B chassis
doesn't have the X windows or NFS support, so it's a lot less useful.

I picked HP 16500C since I'd used it before--so think of something you
used and liked that was new 20 years ago, and buy a used version of that.
Everything is 20x-50x cheaper than new, which makes it a great deal.

You're taking some risk on ebay, but it looks like you can get 4x 16555A
in a 16500C chassis for under $500.  I found one for sale near me 10 years ago
and picked it up in person.  (This stuff is heavy--I'd be wary of shipping
damage).  Quality used equipment from 20-25 years ago is better than cheap
crap today.

To be safe, I bought two of everything I wanted--one system was perfect, the
other had some minor annoyances.

It looks like the PicoScope 6000 new is 5GSa/s at 500MHz with 2 channels
for $6916.  The 25 year old HP equipment is almost as good (half the
sampling rate) for 1/10th the price.

Kent

On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 6:11:08 PM UTC-5, Kent Dickey wrote:
> In article <56b82e62-c2f8-4523...@googlegroups.com>,
> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 2:54:13 PM UTC-4, Philip Martel wrote: 
> >> On 10/29/2020 23:17, Rick C wrote: 
> >> > I will be working from home to help an open ventilator project and 
> >want to acquire some tools. I've needed a new scope for some time, but 
> >want an attached scope using the PC for a display. They are no cheaper 
> >than the full scopes and good ones may be more expensive. The only ones 
> >I've found that are decent are the Pico Technology scopes. Rather 
> >pricey. 
> >> > 
> >> > Then there are small logic analyzers, again on the PC. One I've 
> >seen used is good and not too pricey, but I don't recall the name. My 
> >only issue with it is that it doesn't have a Linux driver. I keep 
> >wanting to switch to Linux, but this is the sort of thing that holds me 
> >back. Ah, found it. LogicPort by Intronix. Not a bad device, but no 
> >scope.
> I've had good luck in the past buying used HP 20+ year old test equipment on 
> ebay. (It was named HP, then Agilent, now Keysight, which is kinda handy 
> when searching, you get to pick the age of the equipment through the name). 
> The HP16500C supports sending the display over X windows (so you can control 
> it from your desk), and I think it supports NFS mounting so you can get 
> at the trace data. It supports 5 plug in cards. The 16534a is the 
> 2GSa/s 500MHz scope card which gives you two probes, and is about $500 or so. 
> It's excellent. The 16555A cards are logic analyzer cards with 1 million 
> states deep at 125MHz (250MHz if you lose half the channels, and 500MHz fixed 
> sampling clock which is useful to see which signals are transitioning 
> later/earlier than others on a bus). HP Logic Analyzers have very good 
> triggering and selective trace capture ability. Try to get the 
> 16555A already installed as a group in a chassis since there are special 
> connectors to "gang" them together which you'll want. The 16500B chassis 
> doesn't have the X windows or NFS support, so it's a lot less useful. 
> 
> I picked HP 16500C since I'd used it before--so think of something you 
> used and liked that was new 20 years ago, and buy a used version of that. 
> Everything is 20x-50x cheaper than new, which makes it a great deal. 
> 
> You're taking some risk on ebay, but it looks like you can get 4x 16555A 
> in a 16500C chassis for under $500. I found one for sale near me 10 years ago 
> and picked it up in person. (This stuff is heavy--I'd be wary of shipping 
> damage). Quality used equipment from 20-25 years ago is better than cheap 
> crap today. 
> 
> To be safe, I bought two of everything I wanted--one system was perfect, the 
> other had some minor annoyances. 
> 
> It looks like the PicoScope 6000 new is 5GSa/s at 500MHz with 2 channels 
> for $6916. The 25 year old HP equipment is almost as good (half the 
> sampling rate) for 1/10th the price. 
> 
> Kent

Thanks for the suggestions.  I used one of those HP logic analyzers complete with a floppy disk drive, MANY years ago.  You picked the top end PicoScope to compare to.  The problem is the HP16500 would barely fit in my car without breaking an axle while the PicoScope will fit in my computer bag!  

In the winter I might have to turn off the HP during my electricity peak billing time and in the summer I'd have to chill the house in the AM to keep the temperatures down in the afternoon.  lol, just kidding of course, but they do use a lot of power which gets turned into heat.  At this moment, the laptop is the highest power drain that's running.  I'd like to keep it that way.  Heck, I'm considering replacing my fridge because the web says buying a new one will save enough electricity to pay for itself in five years or less.  It's 30 years old too.  

-- 

Rick C.

  -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
  -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209