Next generation products - microprocessor family

Hi all,
we're trying to solve a complicated task. We have to choose uP' family for 
our next generation's products.
Since now we  disperse a lot of energy (and money of course) in different 
system equipped with:
- infineon C167CRLM
- fujitsu MB90545
- various microchip
- some atmel (AVR)
- some TI (don't remember partname)

Mine product are something like PLC. To be more precise, product are 
Automotive PLC.
Since now, we develop two family of systems with various architectures:
- visualizer
- actuators

Visualizer usually has a display (monochrome) and sometimes some limited I/O 
resources.
Actuators, has a lot of I/O of any kind.

We spent a lot of money in development systems, employee's formation, 
problem solving and we're tryng to change our way of thinking.
We'd like to move to just ONE architecture in order to move tecnician and 
programmer from a project to another one as quickly as possible.

Please suggest us a family of micro that has:
- good cost
- integrated CAN bus
- free C compiler
- web literature (forum, docs, etc...)
- flash
- good interchangeability
- low cost dev sys?

At this time, we are thinking to atmel' family but we'd like to have your 
precious suggestions.

Please, if you can, suggest also:
_Visualization tools_
we need a tool that it's able to design in a quick way our display's 
content. Best could be a software that generate C code of bargraph, gauge, 
bitmap, variables...
_Ladder tool_
tool that generate C code from a ladder diagram (since now, we found only 
ftp://ftp.visi.com/users/grante/stuff/led.tar.gz 
http://www.visi.com/~grante/ladder.pdf but it is working with linux only 
... )
_ST tool_
tools that generate C code from a StructuredText listing

We'll appreciate all good suggestions of every kind.
Best regards to all readers,
Gian.

Gian wrote:

> Hi all,
> we're trying to solve a complicated task. We have to choose uP' family for 
> our next generation's products.
> Since now we  disperse a lot of energy (and money of course) in different 
> system equipped with:
> - infineon C167CRLM
> - fujitsu MB90545
> - various microchip
> - some atmel (AVR)
> - some TI (don't remember partname)
> 
> Mine product are something like PLC. To be more precise, product are 
> Automotive PLC.
> Since now, we develop two family of systems with various architectures:
> - visualizer
> - actuators
> 
> Visualizer usually has a display (monochrome) and sometimes some limited I/O 
> resources.
> Actuators, has a lot of I/O of any kind.
> 
> We spent a lot of money in development systems, employee's formation, 
> problem solving and we're tryng to change our way of thinking.
> We'd like to move to just ONE architecture in order to move tecnician and 
> programmer from a project to another one as quickly as possible.
> 
> Please suggest us a family of micro that has:
> - good cost
> - integrated CAN bus
> - free C compiler
> - web literature (forum, docs, etc...)
> - flash
> - good interchangeability
> - low cost dev sys?
> 
> At this time, we are thinking to atmel' family but we'd like to have your 
> precious suggestions.
> 
> Please, if you can, suggest also:
> _Visualization tools_
> we need a tool that it's able to design in a quick way our display's 
> content. Best could be a software that generate C code of bargraph, gauge, 
> bitmap, variables...
> _Ladder tool_
> tool that generate C code from a ladder diagram (since now, we found only 
> ftp://ftp.visi.com/users/grante/stuff/led.tar.gz 
> http://www.visi.com/~grante/ladder.pdf but it is working with linux only 
> ... )
> _ST tool_
> tools that generate C code from a StructuredText listing
> 
> We'll appreciate all good suggestions of every kind.
> Best regards to all readers,
> Gian.
> 
I suggest you do the following:

1.  Compile all the requirements.  You have most of them, but to those 
you need to add an estimate of the performance and memory requirements, 
plus your temperature requirements.  I'd run the requirements by all 
your senior engineers, to make sure you haven't missed anything (like 
easy download?).

2.  Start slogging through data sheets.  Find some candidates (hopefully 
more than one) and winnow through them to find the best one.  Try to 
guess at one that has upward growth potential, for when you run out of 
space or performance.  Lean toward manufacturers that have given you 
good service in the past.  Failing that, ask about those few candidates 
here, and give the most weight to answers from companies in similar 
positions to yours.

3.  Make your decision.  You may find that you need two different 
processors, or at least two strikingly different variants for your two 
different families of products.  You'll probably either have to accept 
that, or accept higher per-piece price on one or both variants.

3a.  You may find that the best decision you can make is one of the 
processors that you're already using.

-- 

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Posting from Google?  See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/

"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Gian <gianmarcocverde@libero.it> wrote:

> Please suggest us a family of micro that has:
> - good cost
> - integrated CAN bus

What would be so bad about an external one?

> - free C compiler

Making this a _requirement_ right off the bat is quite certainly a
seriously bad idea.  You're trying to save money at the wrong end.
Even seemingly expensive tools are cheap, compared to the costs of
project failure or loss of productivity.

> - good interchangeability

Huh? Interchangeable with what?  How does this make sense in a plan to
become a one-architecture shop?

> - low cost dev sys?

You already said that.  Twice.


-- 
Hans-Bernhard Broeker (broeker@physik.rwth-aachen.de)
Even if all the snow were burnt, ashes would remain.

The economics of C compilers are, "Can it save the loaded costs of 1-2 man days?". If it can the cost of the C compiler and the application development support that comes with it will make you money.

w..


Gian wrote:

>
> - free C compiler
>

>> Please suggest us a family of micro that has:
>> - good cost
>> - integrated CAN bus
>
> What would be so bad about an external one?
Not so bad... just more expensive.

>> - free C compiler
>
> Making this a _requirement_ right off the bat is quite certainly a
> seriously bad idea.  You're trying to save money at the wrong end.
> Even seemingly expensive tools are cheap, compared to the costs of
> project failure or loss of productivity.
Just two example: fujitsu series MB90xxx comes with a free compiler. Very 
affordable and professional.
There's also an integration with a very simple serial ICD.
AVR has an affordable gnu compiler...

>
>> - good interchangeability
>
> Huh? Interchangeable with what?  How does this make sense in a plan to
> become a one-architecture shop?
Interchangeable: i mean the possibility to use same pinout with different 
micros and different peripheral.

>
>> - low cost dev sys?
>
> You already said that.  Twice.
Sorry. With devsys I mean ICE. Not compiler...

Regards. 

"Walter Banks" <walter@bytecraft.com> ha scritto nel messaggio 
news:44D8DDE6.85AC149A@bytecraft.com...
> The economics of C compilers are, "Can it save the loaded costs of 1-2 man 
> days?". If it can the cost of the C compiler and the application 
> development support that comes with it will make you money.
>
> w..
I agree with u but _in my experience_, equation 'free=less professional' 
doesn't always works.
Regards. 

Gian <gianmarcocverde@libero.it> wrote:

> "Walter Banks" <walter@bytecraft.com> ha scritto nel messaggio 
> news:44D8DDE6.85AC149A@bytecraft.com...
> > The economics of C compilers are, "Can it save the loaded costs of 1-2 man 
> > days?". If it can the cost of the C compiler and the application 
> > development support that comes with it will make you money.

> I agree with u but _in my experience_, equation 'free=less professional' 
> doesn't always works.

But neither does your negation of it, which appears to be "free ==
better than anything that costs money".

-- 
Hans-Bernhard Broeker (broeker@physik.rwth-aachen.de)
Even if all the snow were burnt, ashes would remain.

Gian <gianmarcocverde@libero.it> wrote:

> Just two example: fujitsu series MB90xxx comes with a free compiler. 

No sourcecode, and if it's downloadable at all, they've hidden that
link really well.

So it's only "for free", which is not the same as free software.  It
gives you all of the drawbacks of a proprietary tool (linked to one OS
platform which you may no longer have 10 years down the road),
combined with all the drawbacks of free software (no-one to sue for a
refund if it didn't live up to its promises).

> Very affordable and professional.

> There's also an integration with a very simple serial ICD.

... and yet, there's another company that made quite a nice business
out of selling a better serial ICD at several kilodollars a pop.
Guess why?

Availability of free compilers is a good thing.  But it's certainly
not enough of an argument to disqualify an entire platform from your
selection.

-- 
Hans-Bernhard Broeker (broeker@physik.rwth-aachen.de)
Even if all the snow were burnt, ashes would remain.

> So it's only "for free", which is not the same as free software.  It
> gives you all of the drawbacks of a proprietary tool (linked to one OS
> platform which you may no longer have 10 years down the road),
Good observation. Thanks. Wich professional tool is't linked to one OS?

> Availability of free compilers is a good thing.  But it's certainly
> not enough of an argument to disqualify an entire platform from your
> selection.
Thanks for observation.

Regards, Gian. 

>> I agree with u but _in my experience_, equation 'free=less professional'
>> doesn't always works.
>
> But neither does your negation of it, which appears to be "free ==
> better than anything that costs money".

Do you write compilers?
Sorry I'm just joking!!! :-)

Hans, thanks for your suggestion and best regards,
Gian.