Hello, I am comparatively new to the embedded world and hope to find here some advices and inspirations and maybe answers to the many questions I have. I am going to develop a distributed application with the following characteristics. A central control programme (probably on a PC) shall talk with a number of embedded devices (microcontroller with sensors and actuators etc.) and the transfer rate shall be relatively high (in fact there are real time issues). Also, the embedded devices shall be hot pluggable meaning that the central control should become immediately aware of a new deviced being plugged into the system. Also, direct communication between the devices shall be possible which suggests a multi-master-bus-protocol. At first, I had the idea of developing all this Ethernet TCP/IP based and develop all the hot-plug logic on my own. Unfortunately, TCP/IP is too slow and I found that actually firewire is fast enough, cheap enough, it's multi-master and it already has hot pluggability built in!!! (Am I right??) So my idea is that each device has its own firewire controller which enables communication. In fact, I hope that havnig controller relieves me from all the pain to develop hot-plug-capability for the whole system. IS THAT CORRECT???? The next question was, where can I find nice firewire-controllers or even better a microcontroller with built- in firewire interface which comes with a nice developes kit??? I have found some firewire controllers at TI, but all this information is hardly to understand for a non-expert. I mean, if I buy a firewire controller from TI (for example) - will it come with a development kit or with an API or something like this?? And will can I actually utilize the firewire controller for my own application??? Because firewire also works with the ROM on the chip, but the information on this ROM-chip should obviously different from the information of the ROM-chip of a firewire-camera....so, there are a lot of questions. Here is a list to facilitate answering: 1.) Do you think, firewire is a good choice for my type of application?? (it is an industrial one) 2.) Am I right, that putting firewire controllers on a microcontroller board enables hot pluggability of those microcontrollers straight away?? If not, what else do I have to do then? 3.) Do you know any good firewire products that come with a development kit, so that I could write a "Hello world" between a PC and a microcontroller? 4.) When I buy a fire wire controller from one of the various vendors, will they also provide me with tools to develop my own application based on firewire?? 5. Is there a practical tutorial out there?? For some reason, I could NOT find any code examples or tutorials on firewire....is there actually a good reason for this....??? If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me. Apart from that I do appreciate any answers to this thread. THANKS.
Development of a distributed system based on firewire- advice needed...
Started by ●January 31, 2007
Reply by ●January 31, 20072007-01-31
maxpower24@gmx.net wrote:> Hello, > > I am comparatively new to the embedded world and hope to find here > some advices and inspirations and maybe answers to the many questions > I have.Welcome to our world.> I am going to develop a distributed application with the following > characteristics. A central control programme (probably on a PC) shall > talk with a number of embedded devices (microcontroller with sensors > and actuators etc.) and the transfer rate shall be relatively high (in > fact there are real time issues). Also, the embedded devices shall be > hot pluggable meaning that the central control should become > immediately aware of a new deviced being plugged into the system. > Also, direct communication between the devices shall be possible which > suggests a multi-master-bus-protocol. > > At first, I had the idea of developing all this Ethernet TCP/IP based > and develop all the hot-plug logic on my own. Unfortunately, TCP/IP is > too slow and I found that actually firewire is fast enough, cheap > enough, it's multi-master and it already has hot pluggability built > in!!! (Am I right??)Not dealt with firewire but why does your analysis of the system requirements suggest that you could not meet the real-time requirements with a fast ethernet based system. There are some extensions to the TCP/IP and ethernet protocols that address providing communication of data in real-time across the network (sometimes by reserving specific time-slots within the communications for specific purposes). See IEEE1588, TTP and SafeNet for further information.> 1.) Do you think, firewire is a good choice for my type of > application?? (it is an industrial one)Don't know at this stage without some more specific details. You say this is an industrial application and have hinted that there will be sensors and actuators associated with each of the nodes. I would hope you have done some work to establish what your system safety requirements are. If not, you may have to consider wider measures than just whether or not you are using Firewire, Ethernet of some other communications medium. -- ******************************************************************** Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://peb@amleth.demon.co.uk> Forth based HIDECS Consultancy .....<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/> Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095 Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk.. ********************************************************************
Reply by ●January 31, 20072007-01-31
On 31 Jan., 20:07, "Paul E. Bennett" <p...@amleth.demon.co.uk> wrote:> maxpowe...@gmx.net wrote: > > Hello, > > > I am comparatively new to the embedded world and hope to find here > > some advices and inspirations and maybe answers to the many questions > > I have. > > Welcome to our world. > > > I am going to develop a distributed application with the following > > characteristics. A central control programme (probably on a PC) shall > > talk with a number of embedded devices (microcontroller with sensors > > and actuators etc.) and the transfer rate shall be relatively high (in > > fact there are real time issues). Also, the embedded devices shall be > > hot pluggable meaning that the central control should become > > immediately aware of a new deviced being plugged into the system. > > Also, direct communication between the devices shall be possible which > > suggests a multi-master-bus-protocol. > > > At first, I had the idea of developing all this Ethernet TCP/IP based > > and develop all the hot-plug logic on my own. Unfortunately, TCP/IP is > > too slow and I found that actually firewire is fast enough, cheap > > enough, it's multi-master and it already has hot pluggability built > > in!!! (Am I right??) > > Not dealt with firewire but why does your analysis of the system > requirements suggest that you could not meet the real-time requirements > with a fast ethernet based system. There are some extensions to the TCP/IP > and ethernet protocols that address providing communication of data in > real-time across the network (sometimes by reserving specific time-slots > within the communications for specific purposes). See IEEE1588, TTP and > SafeNet for further information. > > > 1.) Do you think, firewire is a good choice for my type of > > application?? (it is an industrial one) > > Don't know at this stage without some more specific details. > > You say this is an industrial application and have hinted that there will be > sensors and actuators associated with each of the nodes. I would hope you > have done some work to establish what your system safety requirements are. > If not, you may have to consider wider measures than just whether or not > you are using Firewire, Ethernet of some other communications medium. > > -- > ******************************************************************** > Paul E. Bennett ....................<email:/...@amleth.demon.co.uk> > Forth based HIDECS Consultancy .....<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/> > Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 > Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095 > Going Forth Safely ..... EBA.www.electric-boat-association.org.uk.. > ********************************************************************Hello, thanks for your reply.....so, far the project is still in an early stage with a lot of (unsure) assumptions concerning safety, speed etc. The main reason why firewire came into my mind, is the "hot pluggable"- feature the network shall provide (whatever bus or protocol is used). This means, whenever a device is plugged into the system, the control system shall become automatically aware of it.....I hope that I can get this feature "free of charge" when i use firewire as a lot of very clever people have developed it within 10years......and secondly, from what I read it is very fast and safe..... Concerning ethernet....I have so far only dealt with programming TCP/ IP and UDP/IP-applications, but because all the communication is implemented in software, it takes quite a long time to transmit packets, if i am not mistaken....I mean, when you use TCP/IP you have to open sockets, bind to it, send data to the socket and so on.....you are not directly using the (fast enough) ethernet protocol......To be honest, I have no idea how i could develop an application that communicates over pure ethernet, not TCP/IP over Ethernet.....I would like to know that by the way, so if you have an advice here... Thanks anyway...
Reply by ●January 31, 20072007-01-31
maxpower24@gmx.net wrote:> Hello, > > thanks for your reply.....so, far the project is still in an early > stage with a lot of (unsure) assumptions concerning safety, speed etc.OK, so just a cursory glance at options then.> The main reason why firewire came into my mind, is the "hot pluggable"- > feature the network shall provide (whatever bus or protocol is used). > This means, whenever a device is plugged into the system, the control > system shall become automatically aware of it.....I hope that I can > get this feature "free of charge" when i use firewire as a lot of very > clever people have developed it within 10years......and secondly, from > what I read it is very fast and safe.....I'd have a close look at the safety requirements first and then decide if it is safe enough or needs alternative network augmentation.> Concerning ethernet....I have so far only dealt with programming TCP/ > IP and UDP/IP-applications, but because all the communication is > implemented in software, it takes quite a long time to transmit > packets, if i am not mistaken....I mean, when you use TCP/IP you have > to open sockets, bind to it, send data to the socket and so on.....you > are not directly using the (fast enough) ethernet protocol......To be > honest, I have no idea how i could develop an application that > communicates over pure ethernet, not TCP/IP over Ethernet.....I would > like to know that by the way, so if you have an advice here...To give you a little light reading then:- http://www.ethernet-powerlink.org/ http://www.eng.auburn.edu/users/lim/sensit.html http://www.safetybusp.com/1_News/1.2_News_News.htm -- ******************************************************************** Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://peb@amleth.demon.co.uk> Forth based HIDECS Consultancy .....<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/> Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095 Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk.. ********************************************************************
Reply by ●February 15, 20072007-02-15
maxpower24@gmx.net wrote in news:1170239489.779749.225050 @j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com:> 5. Is there a practical tutorial out there?? For some reason, I could > NOT find any code examples or tutorials on firewire....is there > actually a good reason for this....???Talk to these people: http://agile-systems.com/ They do Firewire and Ethernet distributed controls. Check out their MicroMAX system.
