Are there any commercial adaptors that would replace a floppy drive with some type of flash storage (sd, mmc, thumb drive)? To the host, this would have to look just like the floppy drive it replaced, but use different media. The reason I ask is there are many old but useful embedded systems which have only the floppy for storage but no other interfaces (no IDE or USB).
Floppy emulator with flash media
Started by ●September 4, 2007
Reply by ●September 4, 20072007-09-04
On Sep 4, 10:04 am, tns1 <t...@cox.net> wrote:> some type of flash storage (sd, mmc, thumb drive)? To the host, this > would have to look just like the floppy drive it replaced, but useThere is the FlashPath adapter for SSFDC, which is a fake 3.5" diskette that goes into a regular floppy drive, and reads/writes SSFDC cards :)
Reply by ●September 4, 20072007-09-04
On Sep 4, 7:10 am, larwe <zwsdot...@gmail.com> wrote:> On Sep 4, 10:04 am, tns1 <t...@cox.net> wrote: > > > some type of flash storage (sd, mmc, thumb drive)? To the host, this > > would have to look just like the floppy drive it replaced, but use > > The reason I ask is there are many old but useful embedded systems which > > have only the floppy for storage but no other interfaces (no IDE or USB).I can understand no USB, but no IDE is totally useless. There are cheap (<$20) Pentium 75 to 200 boards with IDE. Any example of your useful IDE-less target?> > There is the FlashPath adapter for SSFDC, which is a fake 3.5" > diskette that goes into a regular floppy drive, and reads/writes SSFDC > cards :)Which is very unreliable. FlashPath is less reliable than floppy disks.
Reply by ●September 4, 20072007-09-04
linnix wrote:> On Sep 4, 7:10 am, larwe <zwsdot...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>On Sep 4, 10:04 am, tns1 <t...@cox.net> wrote: >> >> >>>some type of flash storage (sd, mmc, thumb drive)? To the host, this >>>would have to look just like the floppy drive it replaced, but use >>>The reason I ask is there are many old but useful embedded systems which >>>have only the floppy for storage but no other interfaces (no IDE or USB). > > > I can understand no USB, but no IDE is totally useless. There are > cheap (<$20) Pentium 75 to 200 boards with IDE. Any example of your > useful IDE-less target? > > >>There is the FlashPath adapter for SSFDC, which is a fake 3.5" >>diskette that goes into a regular floppy drive, and reads/writes SSFDC >>cards :) > > > Which is very unreliable. FlashPath is less reliable than floppy > disks. >Many types of test equipment such as oscopes and analyzers, music industry equip such as synthesizers, programmable sewing machines, industrial equip, etc. When these were manufactured, the floppy was the most common removable storage. Some also have an IDE interface, but to keep costs down, many have only a single floppy drive interface used for data storage and data transfer back and forth to a PC. Unlike the PC the useful life is 10-20yrs. Replacement cost is also high.
Reply by ●September 4, 20072007-09-04
On Sep 4, 9:21 am, tns1 <t...@cox.net> wrote:> linnix wrote: > > On Sep 4, 7:10 am, larwe <zwsdot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>On Sep 4, 10:04 am, tns1 <t...@cox.net> wrote: > > >>>some type of flash storage (sd, mmc, thumb drive)? To the host, this > >>>would have to look just like the floppy drive it replaced, but use > >>>The reason I ask is there are many old but useful embedded systems which > >>>have only the floppy for storage but no other interfaces (no IDE or USB). > > > I can understand no USB, but no IDE is totally useless. There are > > cheap (<$20) Pentium 75 to 200 boards with IDE. Any example of your > > useful IDE-less target? > > >>There is the FlashPath adapter for SSFDC, which is a fake 3.5" > >>diskette that goes into a regular floppy drive, and reads/writes SSFDC > >>cards :) > > > Which is very unreliable. FlashPath is less reliable than floppy > > disks. > > Many types of test equipment such as oscopes and analyzers, music > industry equip such as synthesizers, programmable sewing machines, > industrial equip, etc. When these were manufactured, the floppy was the > most common removable storage. Some also have an IDE interface, but to > keep costs down, many have only a single floppy drive interface used for > data storage and data transfer back and forth to a PC. Unlike the PC the > useful life is 10-20yrs. Replacement cost is also high.A while back I created a gizmo that connected an IDE drive to a ST-412 controller, so it can be done, and reliably. The question is whether it's worth it or not. The above product went into equipment where the down-time was measured in the 10's of thousands of dollars per hour, so replacement was not an option. 3.5" floppies are still available, and should be for a while. It's fairly easy to strap one up to "just about any" FDD controller. G.
Reply by ●September 4, 20072007-09-04
On Sep 4, 10:59 am, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:> > > There is the FlashPath adapter for SSFDC, which is a fake 3.5" > > diskette that goes into a regular floppy drive, and reads/writes SSFDC > > cards :) > > Which is very unreliable. FlashPath is less reliable than floppy > disks.Note the smiley. I never got as far as a reliability assessment on FlashPath because I could never get it to work on any of my computers. I know the Mac guys in the office had it working but they complained bitterly that the Mac required special software, and writing to the card wasn't supported by that software.
Reply by ●September 4, 20072007-09-04
> > A while back I created a gizmo that connected an IDE drive to a ST-412 > controller, so it can be done, and reliably.As I understand it this is was an IDE controller, not a FDC controller. I can go out and buy an IDE to CF or SD adaptor, but I don't see any FDC to X adaptors. I have seen a few hobbyist attempts to do this but nothing commercial. The more I read the more I see there were quite a few different densities and disk formats, probably more so with the equipment I am talking about.> > The question is whether it's worth it or not. The above product went > into equipment where the down-time was measured in the 10's of > thousands of dollars per hour, so replacement was not an option. >In that case it was well worth the trouble.> 3.5" floppies are still available, and should be for a while. It's > fairly easy to strap one up to "just about any" FDD controller. >Yes, but floppies are so yesterday...and seem less reliable than I remember. What got me going on this is I have an old HP analyzer. The drive is mainly used to save configuation and data dumps. The drive still works fine (for now) but its becomming increasingly inconvenient to track down a PC with a (working) floppy drive just so I can save the data. A nice FDC to flash adaptor would be just the thing. The answer I suppose is to get a usb floppy drive and duct tape it to the side of the box.
Reply by ●September 5, 20072007-09-05
> I can go out and buy an IDE to CF or SD adaptor, but I don't see any FDC > to X adaptors. I have seen a few hobbyist attempts to do this but > nothing commercial.There is nothing surprising in that. The ATA (IDE) inerface is a very simple one - a parallel port between a host and an MCU - while the FDD interface is between an FDC (floppy disk controller) like the uPD765, which is probably still cloned on modern silicon, and a piece of hardware - one or two R/W heads, a stepper to seek a track etc. Since I have done both - and I have done the FDC to the lowest thinkable detail back in the 80-s - I can see how what you need can be done, but not easily. The serial data stream on an 1.44 M floppy would be 1Mbps _IIRC_ (I would have to look at my ancient clock recovery circuits to tell that for sure), then there are a number of gaps, address fields per sector, sectors may be interleaved etc. etc. To manage the 1 MbpS NRZ data would take more than a tiny micro, and more than messing around with just a few lines of a HLL, hence no product on the market - not many people who could do it would bother, there are hotter segments and floppy disks are still available.> ...The more I read the more I see there were quite a > few different densities and disk formats, probably more so with the > equipment I am talking about.That's true, but not such a guge issue, once you have one format the rest will be an easy ride. The clock recovery for single and double/high density disks is different, though, only the latter are NRZ, single density write each clock pulse... Dimiter ------------------------------------------------------ Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments http://www.tgi-sci.com ------------------------------------------------------ On Sep 5, 1:17 am, tns1 <t...@cox.net> wrote:> > A while back I created a gizmo that connected an IDE drive to a ST-412 > > controller, so it can be done, and reliably. > > As I understand it this is was an IDE controller, not a FDC controller. > I can go out and buy an IDE to CF or SD adaptor, but I don't see any FDC > to X adaptors. I have seen a few hobbyist attempts to do this but > nothing commercial. The more I read the more I see there were quite a > few different densities and disk formats, probably more so with the > equipment I am talking about. > > > The question is whether it's worth it or not. The above product went > > into equipment where the down-time was measured in the 10's of > > thousands of dollars per hour, so replacement was not an option. > > In that case it was well worth the trouble. > > > 3.5" floppies are still available, and should be for a while. It's > > fairly easy to strap one up to "just about any" FDD controller. > > Yes, but floppies are so yesterday...and seem less reliable than I > remember. What got me going on this is I have an old HP analyzer. The > drive is mainly used to save configuation and data dumps. The drive > still works fine (for now) but its becomming increasingly inconvenient > to track down a PC with a (working) floppy drive just so I can save the > data. A nice FDC to flash adaptor would be just the thing. The answer I > suppose is to get a usb floppy drive and duct tape it to the side of the > box.
Reply by ●September 5, 20072007-09-05
"tns1" <tns1@cox.net> wrote in message news:8CdDi.156780$zz2.152590@newsfe12.phx...> Are there any commercial adaptors that would replace a floppy drive with > some type of flash storage (sd, mmc, thumb drive)? To the host, this > would have to look just like the floppy drive it replaced, but use > different media. > The reason I ask is there are many old but useful embedded systems which > have only the floppy for storage but no other interfaces (no IDE or USB).The easiest way to accomplish that is by the software. All you have to do is to capture all requests to the floppy driver and redirect them to whatever image of the floppy disk. This operation is fairly trivial for the PC platform; you can even boot up from the virtual drive. Look at NE2000 bootROM procedure for the reference. Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Consultant www.abvolt.com
Reply by ●September 5, 20072007-09-05
"tns1" <tns1@cox.net> wrote in message news:4QkDi.30881$L_7.3954@newsfe16.phx...> >> 3.5" floppies are still available, and should be for a while. It's >> fairly easy to strap one up to "just about any" FDD controller. >> > Yes, but floppies are so yesterday...and seem less reliable than I > remember.OT, but salutory perhaps: I'm moving house on Saturday, and am having to be fairly ruthless about what I take (moving from large house in the sticks to small house in prime housing market). Starting from when I went solo in the mid 80s, I built up a considerable archive of floppies - several thousand in all, with each project I worked on saved onto at least two floppies, and of course all the installation floppies from previous eras (Windows 3.1, 95 etc etc). Since then hard disk capacities have ballooned, and at some point I copied all the project data onto my server here and onto CDs... ... Which is just as well, since none of the floppies appear to now be readable. Tried a random handful with a new drive; no go - "disk not formatted". Thus, *all* my floppies are being binned. I also had several hundred 5.25" disks, including some new ones still in unopened boxes... and a drive. All heading for the bin. Same goes for the short-lived and troublesome Colorado Jumbo tape drives and a dozen or so backup tapes. Seems a shame, but hey. Same goes for a filing cabinet full of data sheets and a large pile of databooks, all now obsolete due to the interweb... The company I work for now has *one* filing cabinet in the building (for invoices). I had about four cabinets' worth of paper. I conclude that I'm a dinosaur and have been doing this job too long. Steve (who is just about to try reading some of his CDR archive, and is expecting them to be mostly junk too...) (PS: if anyone has a use for several thousand used floppies, in 3.5" and 5.25" formats, and a 5.25" drive, and can collect from Selsey in Sussex, contact me ASAP. I shall not be holding my breath.) http://www.fivetrees.com