I don't know quite why it is that set-top boxes are so poorly designed as a breed. I've had cable units, satellite units, and (now) freeview (terrestrial digital) set-top boxes - almost without exception [1], they've been flaky as hell. I have a Nokia Mediamaster 221T freeview unit which is an extreme example. It's always been flaky, but since upgrading the firmware recently, it's become virtually unusable - it's been known to freeze (requiring a full power cycle) 4 or 5 times within 5 minutes. I've had discussions with Nokia about it via email, culminating in a phone conversation with a "support agent" just now - she tells me I live in a poor signal area (which is kinda true), and that a poor signal can cause the unit to freeze - a statement which I take as a stunning admission of failure on the part of the Nokia designers. [1] One exception: my daughter bought a no-name freeview box for �30 or so from a local dealer, expecting little from it - and it's been superb. It's not frozen once, and the picture is fine (theoretically poor signal notwithstanding). I bought the Nokia unit for about �130 (over a year ago, sadly) because I thought Nokia knew what they were doing. Hah. I can't think of any other product where poor signal could be used as an excuse for system freezes. What *is* going on? Presumably the RTOS is using up all its cycles trying to derive a clean signal, to the extent that the unit crashes. How can this possibly be justified? Steve (an ex-loyal Nokia customer) http://www.fivetrees.com
Nokia set-top box: example of *dreadful* embedded design
Started by ●January 20, 2005
Reply by ●January 20, 20052005-01-20
On Thursday, in article <V9qdnZmOg8mCGHLcRVn-ig@nildram.net>
steve@NOSPAMTAfivetrees.com "Steve at fivetrees" wrote:
>I don't know quite why it is that set-top boxes are so poorly designed as a
>breed. I've had cable units, satellite units, and (now) freeview
>(terrestrial digital) set-top boxes - almost without exception [1], they've
>been flaky as hell.
Reduced parts and bad design partitioning.
>I have a Nokia Mediamaster 221T freeview unit which is an extreme example.
>It's always been flaky, but since upgrading the firmware recently, it's
>become virtually unusable - it's been known to freeze (requiring a full
>power cycle) 4 or 5 times within 5 minutes. I've had discussions with Nokia
>about it via email, culminating in a phone conversation with a "support
>agent" just now - she tells me I live in a poor signal area (which is kinda
>true), and that a poor signal can cause the unit to freeze - a statement
>which I take as a stunning admission of failure on the part of the Nokia
>designers.
I have seen ADSL routers gow AWOL from the network because they are having
problems with the ADSL line. Example of which was one ISP forgot to tell
me that they use VC encapsulation not LLC, so the unit goes busy sorting
out the line. Eventually reconfigure the unit and it works continuously.
>[1] One exception: my daughter bought a no-name freeview box for ?30 or so
>from a local dealer, expecting little from it - and it's been superb. It's
>not frozen once, and the picture is fine (theoretically poor signal
>notwithstanding). I bought the Nokia unit for about ?130 (over a year ago,
>sadly) because I thought Nokia knew what they were doing. Hah.
>
>I can't think of any other product where poor signal could be used as an
>excuse for system freezes. What *is* going on? Presumably the RTOS is using
>up all its cycles trying to derive a clean signal, to the extent that the
>unit crashes. How can this possibly be justified?
Basically some companies have the attitude "It can ALL be done in software"
and by that they mean ONE CPU doing all the work, so they have reduced
parts count and cost. Don't even get me on the poor software design for
upgrading firmware in some network devices, that cannot cope with
saving config onto PC and restoring config after upgrade. The number that
don't have default values for NEW features and ONLY update the configurtion
items that exist in the old version is unbelievable.
A classic case of this was a router that on firmware upgrade added the
ability to set router time from a PC or manually after the firmware upgrade,
but obviously when restoring a configuration assumed it was from a same
version of firmware so time values all became UNDEFINED!!! Poor software
checks and methods, which to my mind is typical of bad desktop application
programmers doing embedded work with an embedded version of the desktop OS.
>Steve
>(an ex-loyal Nokia customer)
>http://www.fivetrees.com
--
Paul Carpenter | paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk
<http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/> PC Services
<http://www.gnuh8.org.uk/> GNU H8 & mailing list info
<http://www.badweb.org.uk/> For those web sites you hate
Reply by ●January 20, 20052005-01-20
"Paul Carpenter" <paul$@pcserv.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:20050120.1131.306100snz@pcserv.demon.co.uk...> Poor software > checks and methods, which to my mind is typical of bad desktop application > programmers doing embedded work with an embedded version of the desktopOS. Agreed - that's absolutely my take too. <sigh> Steve http://www.fivetrees.com
Reply by ●January 20, 20052005-01-20
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:17:25 -0000, Steve at fivetrees wrote:> I don't know quite why it is that set-top boxes are so poorly designed as a > breed. I've had cable units, satellite units, and (now) freeview > (terrestrial digital) set-top boxes - almost without exception [1], they've > been flaky as hell. > > I have a Nokia Mediamaster 221T freeview unit which is an extreme example. > It's always been flaky, but since upgrading the firmware recently, it's > become virtually unusable - it's been known to freeze (requiring a full > power cycle) 4 or 5 times within 5 minutes. I've had discussions with Nokia > about it via email, culminating in a phone conversation with a "support > agent" just now - she tells me I live in a poor signal area (which is kinda > true), and that a poor signal can cause the unit to freeze - a statement > which I take as a stunning admission of failure on the part of the Nokia > designers. > > [1] One exception: my daughter bought a no-name freeview box for �30 or so > from a local dealer, expecting little from it - and it's been superb. It's > not frozen once, and the picture is fine (theoretically poor signal > notwithstanding). I bought the Nokia unit for about �130 (over a year ago, > sadly) because I thought Nokia knew what they were doing. Hah. > > I can't think of any other product where poor signal could be used as an > excuse for system freezes. What *is* going on? Presumably the RTOS is using > up all its cycles trying to derive a clean signal, to the extent that the > unit crashes. How can this possibly be justified?We have a freeview box (mitsubishi? somthing like that) which is OK unless you leave the TV guide on top of it, because that blocks the top ventilation holes and the whole thing overheats and dies until it's been left unplugged from the mains for five minutes or so. Actually, it's worse than that, because if you leave the remote control on it and only partially block the holes, it still overheats. Even in normal operation the case is quite warm to the touch, and it stays warm when it's in standby. What's with that? I wonder how many people have taken them back "broken"? They sit on top of the TV, where else do people keep the remote control and TV guide? Duh. (well, ours are generally in the middle of the floor, or under a chair, or down the back of the sofa, because we have kids). -- Trevor Barton
Reply by ●January 20, 20052005-01-20
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:12:36 -0000, the renowned "Steve at fivetrees" <steve@NOSPAMTAfivetrees.com> wrote:>"Paul Carpenter" <paul$@pcserv.demon.co.uk> wrote in message >news:20050120.1131.306100snz@pcserv.demon.co.uk... >> Poor software >> checks and methods, which to my mind is typical of bad desktop application >> programmers doing embedded work with an embedded version of the desktop >OS. > >Agreed - that's absolutely my take too. > ><sigh> > >Steve >http://www.fivetrees.comPart of the downside of upgradable firmware too. If it had to be made with mask ROMs with a 10 week lead time and a $xxxK minimum order they'd be more likely to make it (more) right. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Reply by ●January 20, 20052005-01-20
Steve at fivetrees wrote:> I can't think of any other product where poor signal could be used as an > excuse for system freezes. What *is* going on? Presumably the RTOS is using > up all its cycles trying to derive a clean signal, to the extent that the > unit crashes. How can this possibly be justified?Wow ... that was quite a leap. It *must* be the RTOS ;-) Surely it *is* a poorly designed system. Having had some exposure to the CATV business, I have to say that given: o all of the requirements to prevent "content" from being "stolen", o a hodgepodge of non-standard and standard protocols, o a large number of closed source third party libraries, o large teams of embedded software developers working on a "feature rich" product, and o the usual "ship-it-tomorrow" management style of a highly competitive market I am neither surprised nor impressed ;-) -- Michael N. Moran (h) 770 516 7918 5009 Old Field Ct. (c) 678 521 5460 Kennesaw, GA, USA 30144 http://mnmoran.org "So often times it happens, that we live our lives in chains and we never even know we have the key." The Eagles, "Already Gone" The Beatles were wrong: 1 & 1 & 1 is 1
Reply by ●January 20, 20052005-01-20
"Steve at fivetrees" <steve@NOSPAMTAfivetrees.com> wrote> "Paul Carpenter" <paul$@pcserv.demon.co.uk> wrote > > Poor software checks and methods, which to my > > mind is typical of bad desktop application > > programmers doing embedded work with an embedded > > version of the desktop OS. > Agreed - that's absolutely my take too.Ditto. But then where would we be without clients? -- Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Reply by ●January 20, 20052005-01-20
Trevor Barton wrote:> What's with that? I wonder how many people have taken them back "broken"? > They sit on top of the TV, where else do people keep the remote control > and TV guide? Duh. (well, ours are generally in the middle of the > floor, or under a chair, or down the back of the sofa, because we have > kids).Wow - an example where having kids _improves_ the reliability of a consumer appliance ? :) -jg
Reply by ●January 20, 20052005-01-20
> I don't know quite why it is that set-top boxes are so poorly designed > as a breed. I've had cable units, satellite units, and (now) freeview > (terrestrial digital) set-top boxes - almost without exception [1], > they've been flaky as hell.Having designed (and tested) a few in my time, I've got plenty of excuses ;-) Three parts to STB software (OK, 4 then) ... Drivers - Generally the best parts of the software (if written by professionals!). Fast, efficient, they work. Middleware - Mostly utter garbage. No, really. Which means that the application layer is in trouble before it even starts ... App layer - Often poorly written by college grads being paid sixpence per hour. Usually then hacked by more senior engineers to get around the faults in the middleware. Doomed to failure. Not to worry, we can upgrade with an off-air download if anyone complains ... Not forgetting the good old bootloader - This is the bit everyone hates to write or maintain - No fame, no glory. Often just a hacked set of drivers done by the most junior member of the team. And boy, does it show.> I have a Nokia Mediamaster 221T freeview unit which is an extreme > example. It's always been flaky, but since upgrading the firmware > recently, it's become virtually unusableHehe. Good job you haven't got a Pace DTVA - That's a barrel of laughs. Not. The EPG has been broken since September. Runs out of memory gathering SI and crashes. Great. Who tested this particular crock one asks? Never mind, at least these guys don't design aircraft ... Al.
Reply by ●January 20, 20052005-01-20
"Al" <alnews67@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:Xns95E4EC6009418alnews67hotmailcom@130.133.1.4...> > I don't know quite why it is that set-top boxes are so poorly designed > > as a breed. I've had cable units, satellite units, and (now) freeview > > (terrestrial digital) set-top boxes - almost without exception [1], > > they've been flaky as hell. > > Having designed (and tested) a few in my time, I've got plenty of excuses > ;-) > > Three parts to STB software (OK, 4 then) ...Thanks for the insight. It is as I feared ;).> Not to worry, we can upgrade with an > off-air download if anyone complains ...Heh ;). It would appear that Nokia don't have a mechanism for handling such complaints. I've certainly tried, and given up in disgust.> Never mind, at least these guys don't design aircraft ...Many thanks for pointing me at the bright side ;). Steve http://www.fivetrees.com
