probable FAQ that I don't know where to find

Greetings all,

I have a PIC project, and I am new to PICs.  I need to set up a development
environment as cheaply as possible.  Can anyone direct me to inexpensive (or
free) development tools for a PIC 16F; I found nothing at GNU, and
Microchip's site had me running around in circles.  At this point, all that
I need is an IDE (or compiler/linker) and in-system programmer, but might
decide to get an ICE later.

Thanks,
George

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:22:46 -0400, the renowned "George"
<clarkgsmith@comcast.net> wrote:

>Greetings all,
>
>I have a PIC project, and I am new to PICs.  I need to set up a development
>environment as cheaply as possible.  Can anyone direct me to inexpensive (or
>free) development tools for a PIC 16F; I found nothing at GNU, and
>Microchip's site had me running around in circles.  

http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1475&category=devSoftware

Grab MPLAB v6.61. It's a moderate (38M) download. 

>At this point, all that
>I need is an IDE (or compiler/linker) and in-system programmer, but might
>decide to get an ICE later.
>
>Thanks,
>George

I suggest looking at the ICD2. 

Best regards, 
Spehro Pefhany
-- 
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

> I suggest looking at the ICD2.

I second Spehro's suggestion.  The ICD2 (www.olimex.com  has an inexpensive
clone) is a great tool for the money.

I highly recommend you check out www.sparkfun.com as well - those guys are
great!  They carry the Olimex ICD2 as well as other programmers.

"Spehro Pefhany" <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message
news:14mii09ignbdpc74vrnhuojtc21le2o8r7@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:22:46 -0400, the renowned "George"
> <clarkgsmith@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >Greetings all,
> >
> >I have a PIC project, and I am new to PICs.  I need to set up a
development
> >environment as cheaply as possible.  Can anyone direct me to inexpensive
(or
> >free) development tools for a PIC 16F; I found nothing at GNU, and
> >Microchip's site had me running around in circles.
>
>
http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1475&category=devSoftware
>
> Grab MPLAB v6.61. It's a moderate (38M) download.
>
> >At this point, all that
> >I need is an IDE (or compiler/linker) and in-system programmer, but might
> >decide to get an ICE later.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >George
>
> I suggest looking at the ICD2.
>
> Best regards,
> Spehro Pefhany
> -- 
> "it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
> speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers:
http://www.trexon.com
> Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:
http://www.speff.com

Thanks Spehro, I will get MPLAB, but it appears that it does not include a C
compiler.  Having no burning need (nor desire) to write the code in
Assembly, I would prefer to do it in C.  With Microchip's tools, I find a
bit of a quandry....  C17 or C18 for a PIC 16F -- which do you use?  (and
how much does it cost?).

Are there any (cheaper) 3rd party compilers that will integrate into MPLAB?

Thanks,
George

George wrote:
> Greetings all,
> 
> I have a PIC project, and I am new to PICs.  I need to set up a development
> environment as cheaply as possible.  Can anyone direct me to inexpensive (or
> free) development tools for a PIC 16F; 

MPLAB from Microchip is OK for asm programming.

I suggest you stick with the PIc18 series though. They generally are 
faster, have more stuff built into them, and are nicer to program in asm 
then the PIC16 series.

cheers,

Al

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:41:42 -0400, the renowned "George"
<clarkgsmith@comcast.net> wrote:

>Thanks Spehro, I will get MPLAB, but it appears that it does not include a C
>compiler.  Having no burning need (nor desire) to write the code in
>Assembly, I would prefer to do it in C.  With Microchip's tools, I find a
>bit of a quandry....  C17 or C18 for a PIC 16F -- which do you use?  (and
>how much does it cost?).

I'm not that familiar with Microchip branded compiler products. I
think I tried a demo of an earlier version, but that's not
representative of what they offer now. If you are going to invest in
and use a C compiler you might want to consider starting off with the
18F series. Many compilers are limited to emitting code for just the
16/17 series OR the 18 series. If you buy one and then decide to use
the 18F series you'll have to buy a new compiler. (The 17 series is a
dead end). The 12 series may or may not be included in the 16 series
compilers, but the point is pretty much moot anyhew. 

You will more than likely have to learn some assembly anyhow. The 18F
series is much nicer to program in assembly too, so if you want to
avoid spending money that is one way to go. 

Most of the compiler vendors offer demos that will work for a limited
period of time and/or limited versions. 

>Are there any (cheaper) 3rd party compilers that will integrate into MPLAB?

The ones I know of off the top of my head: IAR, Hitech, Bytecraft,
Microchip, CCS, SDCC (in approximate order of decreasing cost and
possibly other things..) I'm sure there are others.

Best regards, 
Spehro Pefhany
-- 
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

"Al Borowski" <al.borowski@EraseThis.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4129f70e$0$22837$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> George wrote:
> > Greetings all,
> >
> > I have a PIC project, and I am new to PICs.  I need to set up a
development
> > environment as cheaply as possible.  Can anyone direct me to inexpensive
(or
> > free) development tools for a PIC 16F;
>
> MPLAB from Microchip is OK for asm programming.
>
> I suggest you stick with the PIc18 series though. They generally are
> faster, have more stuff built into them, and are nicer to program in asm
> then the PIC16 series.
>
> cheers,
>
> Al
>

Perhaps I am mis-representing the project scope, and my questions.  I am
designing the software for a 16F controller;  i cannot change the
hardware -- i have no control over that.  Now I am presented with a C17 or a
C18 compiler, but using a chip that one would think would need a C16
compiler.   There is no such thing.  Which do I use, and why?

And I know that any PIC C compiler from Microchip will be much more
expensive than the same item from a third party; it almost goes without
saying.  IAR, out of the question, thats $2k or so without even looking.
People are using PIC C compilers in here everyday.  Cannot someone suggest a
cheap alternative and give me some specific details?

thanks,
George, aka Clark

> Perhaps I am mis-representing the project scope, and my questions.  I am
> designing the software for a 16F controller;  i cannot change the
> hardware -- i have no control over that.  Now I am presented with a C17 or a
> C18 compiler, but using a chip that one would think would need a C16
> compiler.   There is no such thing.  Which do I use, and why?
>
> And I know that any PIC C compiler from Microchip will be much more
> expensive than the same item from a third party; it almost goes without
> saying.  IAR, out of the question, thats $2k or so without even looking.
> People are using PIC C compilers in here everyday.  Cannot someone suggest a
> cheap alternative and give me some specific details?
>
> thanks,
> George, aka Clark

If you're only interested in a C compiler for the 16F series, and you're new to PIC's,
then you might want to look into the CCS PCM compiler. It will set you back around
$125.00.

I prefer the CCS compiler for several reasons, but primarily because they include a
ton of example sorce code, a nice web based support forum, and you have access to
built-in function code in the supplied libraries.

There's also an excellent book titled "Embedded C Programming and the Microchip PIC"
by Barnett, Cox & O'Cull that's writen specifically for the CCS compiler. If you go the CCS
route, this book is a good addition.

There are several demo versions with limited capabilities like the CC5X C compiler
at http://www.bknd.com/cc5x/index.shtml and Hi-Tech http://www.htsoft.com/ and
C2C C http://www.picant.com/c2c/c.html as well.

Here's a good site for Hi-Tech examples http://www.microchipc.com

Depending on the target 16F PIC you're using, one of the freebie versions may be all you
really need, but it's worth the investment (in my opinion) for the CCS PCM option.


-Bruce
http://www.rentron.com

Bruce wrote:
> 
... snip ...
> 
> If you're only interested in a C compiler for the 16F series, and
> you're new to PIC's, then you might want to look into the CCS PCM
> compiler. It will set you back around $125.00.

That must be the one that came out around '96 or '97.  It had some
weird method of distributing code in the codespace.  IIRC it cost
USD 99 then.

I got an early version for some Pic work, and found bug after bug,
even considering that it didn't (and couldn't, because of the PIC)
approach standard C.  The author was very cooperative in
attempting to fix the bugs, but another one always sprang up
immediately.  I had to check the assembly code generated for
everything.  So I switched to assembly for the project and left
him alone, which might have given him a chance to get it right.

-- 
Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net)
   Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
   <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>  USE worldnet address!

"CBFalconer"  wrote
> ... snip ...
> >
> > If you're only interested in a C compiler for the 16F series, and
> > you're new to PIC's, then you might want to look into the CCS PCM
> > compiler. It will set you back around $125.00.
>
> That must be the one that came out around '96 or '97.  It had some
> weird method of distributing code in the codespace.  IIRC it cost
> USD 99 then.

CCS prices on the 12 & 14-bit versions used to be $99 ea, but went up
recently. http://www.ccsinfo.com/ccscorder.shtml

> I got an early version for some Pic work, and found bug after bug,
> even considering that it didn't (and couldn't, because of the PIC)
> approach standard C.  The author was very cooperative in
> attempting to fix the bugs, but another one always sprang up
> immediately.

Which PIC C compiler was that?

>  I had to check the assembly code generated for
> everything.  So I switched to assembly for the project and left
> him alone, which might have given him a chance to get it right.

That's one of *several* good reasons why it's handy to know assembly before
getting started with a compiler. I have various time critical functions in .asm
with most everything else in C. I use PicBasic Pro too when the app is relatively
simple and doesn't require interrupts or fp.

Whatever you're comfortably with that gets the job done I guess..;o]


-Bruce
http://www.rentron.com