On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Paul Curtis wrote:
>> Hmm, business is business. If you found it does not
serve your
>> purpose (presumably enlarge your customer base and hopefully
>> earn money in the long run), just kill it.
>
> My reasons for offering personal licenses are well documented, I hardly
> need to restate them.
Not clear to me anyway. A glance of the site does not state your
reasons. But whatever reason it is, business is business.
http://www.rowley.co.uk/crossworks/Licensing.htm
>> If you keep it, then you have to support it. And if
the extra
>> work overweight the benefits, then you may want to kill it.
>> But sometime the benefits are difficult to measure.
>
> Personal licenses are sold without any form of guaranteed support: I do
> not *have* to support such licensees, but I *do* choose to. For
> Educational Licenses we expect tutors to assist students, not us. For
> Commercial Licenses we support customers well beyond their expectations on
> longevity of support and the type of support we give.
>
I see. That is a fair statement. But I would not spend US$150 on
such product myself for my personal use. I'd rather use the
free 32KB IAR compiler or mess with free GCC-ARM.
Anyway, I am not a Rowley user. At work we use more main stream
product which is IAR. And I think your license are fair as it is
your product and you are qualified to state the license terms.
But I just feel very strange a vendor like you will state the following.
US$150 may not be a small amount for many users in many part
of the world.
"All over a $150 personal license purchase. Makes me wonder why I offer
our software so cheaply or on such preferential terms. Really. Why do it
for this aggravation? Screw it. I'll just kill the personal licenses
and
all the free hardware and software I've given to support members of this
group without asking for anything in return."
--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com
printing source code in Crossworks 2
Started by ●March 5, 2010
Reply by ●March 5, 20102010-03-05
Reply by ●March 5, 20102010-03-05
On Sat, 06 Mar 2010 00:12:43 -0000, Xiaofan Chen
wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Paul Curtis wrote:
>>> Hmm, business is business. If you found it does not serve your
>>> purpose (presumably enlarge your customer base and hopefully
>>> earn money in the long run), just kill it.
>>
>> My reasons for offering personal licenses are well documented, I hardly
>> need to restate them.
>
> Not clear to me anyway. A glance of the site does not state your
> reasons. But whatever reason it is, business is business.
> http://www.rowley.co.uk/crossworks/Licensing.htm
Perhaps you should take a look at the archives of this and the msp430 Y!
group.
> I see. That is a fair statement. But I would not spend US$150 on
> such product myself for my personal use. I'd rather use the
> free 32KB IAR compiler or mess with free GCC-ARM.
It's great to have a free market and free choice.
> But I just feel very strange a vendor like you will state the following.
> US$150 may not be a small amount for many users in many part
> of the world.
The point is immaterial--we don't distinguish between customers based on
how hard it is to put together $150. As you say, there are always choices.
--
Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
CrossWorks V2 is out for LPC1700, LPC3100, LPC3200, SAM9, and more!
wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Paul Curtis wrote:
>>> Hmm, business is business. If you found it does not serve your
>>> purpose (presumably enlarge your customer base and hopefully
>>> earn money in the long run), just kill it.
>>
>> My reasons for offering personal licenses are well documented, I hardly
>> need to restate them.
>
> Not clear to me anyway. A glance of the site does not state your
> reasons. But whatever reason it is, business is business.
> http://www.rowley.co.uk/crossworks/Licensing.htm
Perhaps you should take a look at the archives of this and the msp430 Y!
group.
> I see. That is a fair statement. But I would not spend US$150 on
> such product myself for my personal use. I'd rather use the
> free 32KB IAR compiler or mess with free GCC-ARM.
It's great to have a free market and free choice.
> But I just feel very strange a vendor like you will state the following.
> US$150 may not be a small amount for many users in many part
> of the world.
The point is immaterial--we don't distinguish between customers based on
how hard it is to put together $150. As you say, there are always choices.
--
Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
CrossWorks V2 is out for LPC1700, LPC3100, LPC3200, SAM9, and more!
Reply by ●March 5, 20102010-03-05
On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Paul Curtis wrote:
>> But I just feel very strange a vendor like you will state the following.
>> US$150 may not be a small amount for many users in many part
>> of the world.
>
> The point is immaterial--we don't distinguish between customers based on
> how hard it is to put together $150. As you say, there are always choices.
Again this is all not that important. I just feel it strange that a vendor
will threat the customers or potential customers with words like this.
You wrote:
""All over a $150 personal license purchase. Makes me wonder why I offer
our software so cheaply or on such preferential terms. Really. Why do it
for this aggravation? Screw it. I'll just kill the personal licenses and
all the free hardware and software I've given to support members of this
group without asking for anything in return."
My first response in my mind is "just drop it, why complain, it is your
product and you have the choice".
--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com
>> But I just feel very strange a vendor like you will state the following.
>> US$150 may not be a small amount for many users in many part
>> of the world.
>
> The point is immaterial--we don't distinguish between customers based on
> how hard it is to put together $150. As you say, there are always choices.
Again this is all not that important. I just feel it strange that a vendor
will threat the customers or potential customers with words like this.
You wrote:
""All over a $150 personal license purchase. Makes me wonder why I offer
our software so cheaply or on such preferential terms. Really. Why do it
for this aggravation? Screw it. I'll just kill the personal licenses and
all the free hardware and software I've given to support members of this
group without asking for anything in return."
My first response in my mind is "just drop it, why complain, it is your
product and you have the choice".
--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com
Reply by ●March 5, 20102010-03-05
--- In l..., rob@... wrote:
> I'll still be your "voice of praise". You have a helluva product and
> phenomenal support. I'm always happy to recommend the development
> system and your hardware whenever I can.
>
> I don't think I have ever - even once - printed from within
> Crossworks. And I would think that it is probably the Linux setup that
> does those things.
>
> -Rob
>
As I said earlier, it DOES work on Ubuntu 9.10 (dual core x86 laptop). Nothing wrong at all!
But Linux has all kinds of warts. Sometimes even the easiest things don't work out.
In any event, I have V2 working on Ubuntu 9.10 and Win7/x64. It works very well.
Richard
> I'll still be your "voice of praise". You have a helluva product and
> phenomenal support. I'm always happy to recommend the development
> system and your hardware whenever I can.
>
> I don't think I have ever - even once - printed from within
> Crossworks. And I would think that it is probably the Linux setup that
> does those things.
>
> -Rob
>
As I said earlier, it DOES work on Ubuntu 9.10 (dual core x86 laptop). Nothing wrong at all!
But Linux has all kinds of warts. Sometimes even the easiest things don't work out.
In any event, I have V2 working on Ubuntu 9.10 and Win7/x64. It works very well.
Richard
Reply by ●March 5, 20102010-03-05
>> I'll still be your "voice of praise". You have
a helluva product and
>> phenomenal support. I'm always happy to recommend the development
>> system and your hardware whenever I can.
>>
>> I don't think I have ever - even once - printed from within
>> Crossworks. And I would think that it is probably the Linux setup that
>> does those things.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
> As I said earlier, it DOES work on Ubuntu 9.10 (dual core x86 laptop). Nothing wrong at all!
> But Linux has all kinds of warts. Sometimes even the easiest things don't work out.
> In any event, I have V2 working on Ubuntu 9.10 and Win7/x64. It works very well.
I'm pretty disappointed that there isn't a commodore 64 port. :-P
I don't envy Paul. I really like how far linux has come, but there are
still issues. In fact my install of Ubuntu 9.10 is a step back from
9.04, sadly. I have example linux code for my USB hardware interface
product, but it is supplied 'as is'.
-Rob
>> phenomenal support. I'm always happy to recommend the development
>> system and your hardware whenever I can.
>>
>> I don't think I have ever - even once - printed from within
>> Crossworks. And I would think that it is probably the Linux setup that
>> does those things.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
> As I said earlier, it DOES work on Ubuntu 9.10 (dual core x86 laptop). Nothing wrong at all!
> But Linux has all kinds of warts. Sometimes even the easiest things don't work out.
> In any event, I have V2 working on Ubuntu 9.10 and Win7/x64. It works very well.
I'm pretty disappointed that there isn't a commodore 64 port. :-P
I don't envy Paul. I really like how far linux has come, but there are
still issues. In fact my install of Ubuntu 9.10 is a step back from
9.04, sadly. I have example linux code for my USB hardware interface
product, but it is supplied 'as is'.
-Rob
Reply by ●March 5, 20102010-03-05
On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 9:37 AM, rtstofer wrote:
>
> As I said earlier, it DOES work on Ubuntu 9.10 (dual core x86 laptop). Nothing wrong at all!
> But Linux has all kinds of warts. Sometimes even the easiest things don't work out.
> In any event, I have V2 working on Ubuntu 9.10 and Win7/x64. It works very well.
So just as a test I download the evaluation installer under
Ubuntu 9.10 (32bit) and open a c file. The printer is listed
(Samsung SCX-4200). So it does work. Take note I have
not even activate the 30-day license. Maybe I will since the
product looks nice. The IDE seems to be quite nice and it is quite fast
as well under my low-end two year old Acer desktop.
To the OP: maybe you want to install a generic printer first to
see if that is listed. For example, a good candidate is
cups-pdf (sudo apt-get install cups-pdf). I just tested it
and it is working fine. By default the output is in ~/PDF
directory.
--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com
>
> As I said earlier, it DOES work on Ubuntu 9.10 (dual core x86 laptop). Nothing wrong at all!
> But Linux has all kinds of warts. Sometimes even the easiest things don't work out.
> In any event, I have V2 working on Ubuntu 9.10 and Win7/x64. It works very well.
So just as a test I download the evaluation installer under
Ubuntu 9.10 (32bit) and open a c file. The printer is listed
(Samsung SCX-4200). So it does work. Take note I have
not even activate the 30-day license. Maybe I will since the
product looks nice. The IDE seems to be quite nice and it is quite fast
as well under my low-end two year old Acer desktop.
To the OP: maybe you want to install a generic printer first to
see if that is listed. For example, a good candidate is
cups-pdf (sudo apt-get install cups-pdf). I just tested it
and it is working fine. By default the output is in ~/PDF
directory.
--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com
Reply by ●March 5, 20102010-03-05
--- In l..., Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> So just as a test I download the evaluation installer under
> Ubuntu 9.10 (32bit) and open a c file. The printer is listed
> (Samsung SCX-4200). So it does work. Take note I have
> not even activate the 30-day license. Maybe I will since the
> product looks nice. The IDE seems to be quite nice and it is quite fast
> as well under my low-end two year old Acer desktop.
By all means, give it a try. I have been using it instead of GNUARM/Eclipse for an LPC2148 project with a Nokia 6610 display. I really like the IDE and I'm getting more familiar with setting project properties in the proper place. The speed of the CrossConnect JTAG dongle is great.
One thing that is impressive is the ease of transitioning between edit, build and debug. The debugger is very nice and supports all the usual things as well as displaying various hardware registers by name. Slick!
The best test is to build an entire project with V2. That way you get exposed to all the features and you don't fall back on some other platform. In fact, V2 is the only ARM platform I have installed on my Win7 box.
Richard
> So just as a test I download the evaluation installer under
> Ubuntu 9.10 (32bit) and open a c file. The printer is listed
> (Samsung SCX-4200). So it does work. Take note I have
> not even activate the 30-day license. Maybe I will since the
> product looks nice. The IDE seems to be quite nice and it is quite fast
> as well under my low-end two year old Acer desktop.
By all means, give it a try. I have been using it instead of GNUARM/Eclipse for an LPC2148 project with a Nokia 6610 display. I really like the IDE and I'm getting more familiar with setting project properties in the proper place. The speed of the CrossConnect JTAG dongle is great.
One thing that is impressive is the ease of transitioning between edit, build and debug. The debugger is very nice and supports all the usual things as well as displaying various hardware registers by name. Slick!
The best test is to build an entire project with V2. That way you get exposed to all the features and you don't fall back on some other platform. In fact, V2 is the only ARM platform I have installed on my Win7 box.
Richard
Reply by ●March 6, 20102010-03-06
Greetings:
I have used other mainstream IDEs and in general personally prefer
Rowley's Crossworks. I think the features offered by the Crossworks IDE
ranks with the other major IDEs which, unless crippled or time limited
and probably without any support, cost thousands for even the lowest
level of licensing.
Of significance to me is that Crossworks is the only ~fully
functional~ professional level IDE with a personal license offering that
I know of. I am very grateful that Rowley have in the past and hopefully
will continue to provide ProBono support to those, like myself, with
personal level limited licenses.
I am dismayed that this minority problem associated with the
printing of source code files whilst running under a rather unique
platform of a particular version of one Linux distribution could become
a catalyst issue that might result in Rowley dropping their personal
license offering! Gosh an external utility such as Programmer's Notepad
could be used by the minority of individuals that run into the problem.
IMHO the main functionality of an IDE is to provide a productive
environment for developing code that runs well on the target. I have
found that Rowley's Crossworks provides this for me. Personally I
wouldn't care if the source code printing function didn't work for me as
I would just use a freeware utility for that relatively infrequent task.
It disgusts me to see a poor picture of Rowely painted over such a
minority issue considering that they are providing many of us an
opportunity to work with modern day microcontrollers which we would not
otherwise have. If spinoff from providing personal licensing benefit
Rowely in the long term, IMHO, that is just great business sense on
their part!
I hope this topic doesn't result in a good thing for the majority
being ruined by an inconsiderate minority.
Tom Alldread
I have used other mainstream IDEs and in general personally prefer
Rowley's Crossworks. I think the features offered by the Crossworks IDE
ranks with the other major IDEs which, unless crippled or time limited
and probably without any support, cost thousands for even the lowest
level of licensing.
Of significance to me is that Crossworks is the only ~fully
functional~ professional level IDE with a personal license offering that
I know of. I am very grateful that Rowley have in the past and hopefully
will continue to provide ProBono support to those, like myself, with
personal level limited licenses.
I am dismayed that this minority problem associated with the
printing of source code files whilst running under a rather unique
platform of a particular version of one Linux distribution could become
a catalyst issue that might result in Rowley dropping their personal
license offering! Gosh an external utility such as Programmer's Notepad
could be used by the minority of individuals that run into the problem.
IMHO the main functionality of an IDE is to provide a productive
environment for developing code that runs well on the target. I have
found that Rowley's Crossworks provides this for me. Personally I
wouldn't care if the source code printing function didn't work for me as
I would just use a freeware utility for that relatively infrequent task.
It disgusts me to see a poor picture of Rowely painted over such a
minority issue considering that they are providing many of us an
opportunity to work with modern day microcontrollers which we would not
otherwise have. If spinoff from providing personal licensing benefit
Rowely in the long term, IMHO, that is just great business sense on
their part!
I hope this topic doesn't result in a good thing for the majority
being ruined by an inconsiderate minority.
Tom Alldread
Reply by ●March 6, 20102010-03-06
>At 08:14 06/03/2010, Thomas M. Alldread wrote:
>Greetings:
>
> I have used other mainstream IDEs and in general personally prefer
>Rowley's Crossworks. I think the features offered by the Crossworks IDE
>ranks with the other major IDEs
Nicely put Thomas. You almost saved me saying it. But I still don't
like seeing a (so-far in my experience) excellent company
misrepresented either so I would like to add my thoughts to help
balance out any overall impression here.
I'm sure (I hope) that Paul was just letting off steam. I think it
says a lot that he is even here in this group (in the middle of the
night!) to respond at all. The guy must live and breathe Crossworks
and customer contact. How would you all feel if someone criticised
your work from your day job in an open internet forum that you read
at home when you are off-duty (You were at least at home relaxing
weren't you Paul) ? I think he's entitled to vent a bit.
I recently tried all the other ARM "starter" tools from IAR, Keil,
Code-Red, as well as simple GCC (CodeSourcery) + favourite editor +
flashmagic (ie. Free) setup. I got them all working and used them for
a bit (mind you, I've never tried printing from any of them). I also
use plenty of supposedly "professional" tools for other platforms at
work that cost a great deal more (though I've never printed from them
either come to think of it) and I dabble with manufacturers own tools
(some free, some expensive) for a few platforms too (Microchip, AVR,
Renesas, Freescale etc). In many cases you are lucky to ever see
anything more than a "ticket number" and speak to a support person
with a "have you tried..." script-sheet.
IMHO Crossworks "just works" better than all the others (Crossconnect
even works on Win7 x64 with no trouble at all!). And when you get
into using the features many of those work better too. The IDE is
much nicer and pretty responsive (way slicker than all the Eclipse
based stuff I have seen). And the response from Rowley even as a
personal license customer (ie. no guaranteed support) is better than
many companies charging 20x as much for their 'similar' products. You
can just tell that Rowley are more committed to their products and
more responsive to their customers.
All development toolkits (that I have used) have bugs. Few, if any,
of those companies are as well supported or responsive to their users
and new hardware platforms as Rowley.
We're lucky that Paul caters for hobbyists like this. At the price of
a personal license and no limitations on code size or debug
capabilities it is a huge bargain. If Rowley or Crossworks ever get's
bought up by a manufacturer (or worse, another tools company) you can
bet things will change and it won't be for the benefit of the
no-decent-profit customers like us.
I've never met anyone from Rowley but if I ever do there is a beer
and big thankyou from me.
>Greetings:
>
> I have used other mainstream IDEs and in general personally prefer
>Rowley's Crossworks. I think the features offered by the Crossworks IDE
>ranks with the other major IDEs
Nicely put Thomas. You almost saved me saying it. But I still don't
like seeing a (so-far in my experience) excellent company
misrepresented either so I would like to add my thoughts to help
balance out any overall impression here.
I'm sure (I hope) that Paul was just letting off steam. I think it
says a lot that he is even here in this group (in the middle of the
night!) to respond at all. The guy must live and breathe Crossworks
and customer contact. How would you all feel if someone criticised
your work from your day job in an open internet forum that you read
at home when you are off-duty (You were at least at home relaxing
weren't you Paul) ? I think he's entitled to vent a bit.
I recently tried all the other ARM "starter" tools from IAR, Keil,
Code-Red, as well as simple GCC (CodeSourcery) + favourite editor +
flashmagic (ie. Free) setup. I got them all working and used them for
a bit (mind you, I've never tried printing from any of them). I also
use plenty of supposedly "professional" tools for other platforms at
work that cost a great deal more (though I've never printed from them
either come to think of it) and I dabble with manufacturers own tools
(some free, some expensive) for a few platforms too (Microchip, AVR,
Renesas, Freescale etc). In many cases you are lucky to ever see
anything more than a "ticket number" and speak to a support person
with a "have you tried..." script-sheet.
IMHO Crossworks "just works" better than all the others (Crossconnect
even works on Win7 x64 with no trouble at all!). And when you get
into using the features many of those work better too. The IDE is
much nicer and pretty responsive (way slicker than all the Eclipse
based stuff I have seen). And the response from Rowley even as a
personal license customer (ie. no guaranteed support) is better than
many companies charging 20x as much for their 'similar' products. You
can just tell that Rowley are more committed to their products and
more responsive to their customers.
All development toolkits (that I have used) have bugs. Few, if any,
of those companies are as well supported or responsive to their users
and new hardware platforms as Rowley.
We're lucky that Paul caters for hobbyists like this. At the price of
a personal license and no limitations on code size or debug
capabilities it is a huge bargain. If Rowley or Crossworks ever get's
bought up by a manufacturer (or worse, another tools company) you can
bet things will change and it won't be for the benefit of the
no-decent-profit customers like us.
I've never met anyone from Rowley but if I ever do there is a beer
and big thankyou from me.
Reply by ●March 6, 20102010-03-06
On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 6:33 PM, Andy B wrote:
>
> We're lucky that Paul caters for hobbyists like this. At the price of
> a personal license and no limitations on code size or debug
> capabilities it is a huge bargain. If Rowley or Crossworks ever get's
> bought up by a manufacturer (or worse, another tools company) you can
> bet things will change and it won't be for the benefit of the
> no-decent-profit customers like us.
>
Actually this is a good idea. It is a trend that vendors provide
free or low cost C compilers (think Microchip and some others).
Maybe if one of the big Arm MCU vendors buy Rowley and provide
the IDE for free (just for their own chips), it may be a good business
case for them. ;-)
Just a thought. Maybe this will not happen any time soon. It seems
that ARM MCU vendors (or 8051 MCU vendors) never do this.
--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com
>
> We're lucky that Paul caters for hobbyists like this. At the price of
> a personal license and no limitations on code size or debug
> capabilities it is a huge bargain. If Rowley or Crossworks ever get's
> bought up by a manufacturer (or worse, another tools company) you can
> bet things will change and it won't be for the benefit of the
> no-decent-profit customers like us.
>
Actually this is a good idea. It is a trend that vendors provide
free or low cost C compilers (think Microchip and some others).
Maybe if one of the big Arm MCU vendors buy Rowley and provide
the IDE for free (just for their own chips), it may be a good business
case for them. ;-)
Just a thought. Maybe this will not happen any time soon. It seems
that ARM MCU vendors (or 8051 MCU vendors) never do this.
--
Xiaofan http://mcuee.blogspot.com
