Philips datasheet department...

Started by Lasse Madsen February 23, 2005
Dear Philips,

I have some suggestions for making your LPC series datasheets better...
I've always thought that your datasheets where top of the line, easy to read
and quick to get around in... (Logic, PLL, etc..) Please let me give you some suggestions and comments:

1)
Sadly I find it quite difficult to even find a suitable datasheet for my
Part LPC2129... getting to the specific part page was easy (applause for
that! (Some manufacturers -ST for instance couldn't find a donkey in a
toilet)

But!

Now I'm at this page:
http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/pip/LPC2129.html

I press the datasheet link and I'm given a 34 page datasheet, Wow excuse me
but I guess this parts have more to it than just the supply voltages!

Come on Philips you can do better, why did I have to search your website for
an hour and ending up comparing pins on the LPC2114 and the LPC2129 to find
a "match" or even a datasheet with more than 34 pages! This discourages me
to get started with that part when the manufacturer not even knows how it
works (or cant supply a real datasheet for it)!

2)
Another thing... I miss C and Assembly examples. A lot of microprocessor
manufacturers has examples for everything that's just a bit special such as
correct watchdog initialization etc. look at Atmel ATmega128 that datasheet
is like the holy bible it self. I have seen datasheets like that from you
before, but I'm missing them on the LPC parts.

Another datasheet thing... The counter/timer/capture initialization is very
confusing! I'm missing connection diagrams showing the logic inside how the
actual "travel path is" from pin to MPU, the Prescaler logic etc. block
diagrams etc. Some people like to read themselves to an answer, and some of
us (like me for instance) learn better if the text is illustrated with some
diagrams.

Again look at Atmel's ATmega128 datasheet look how easy Its all explained
how they carry you through the registers etc.

Just for the record I'm not a slow reader, slow learner, dyslectic etc.
And I'm not a crackpot either having some insane vengeance towards Philips
products. In fact I'm an incarnated Philips fan not only loving your
semiconductors but also your consumer products :)

I hope you will take my humble option into consideration as your logo says
"Lets make things better" - and I hope you will...

We are not all bookworm layers that can read between the lines :-D

Best regards
Lasse Madsen


An Engineer's Guide to the LPC2100 Series

At 11:04 PM 2/23/05 +0100, Lasse Madsen wrote:
>Now I'm at this page:
>http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/pip/LPC2129.html
>
>I press the datasheet link and I'm given a 34 page datasheet, Wow excuse me
>but I guess this parts have more to it than just the supply voltages!
>
>Come on Philips you can do better, why did I have to search your website for
>an hour and ending up comparing pins on the LPC2114 and the LPC2129 to find
>a "match" or even a datasheet with more than 34 pages! This discourages me
>to get started with that part when the manufacturer not even knows how it
>works (or cant supply a real datasheet for it)!
>
>2)
>Another thing... I miss C and Assembly examples. A lot of microprocessor
>manufacturers has examples for everything that's just a bit special such as
>correct watchdog initialization etc. look at Atmel ATmega128 that datasheet
>is like the holy bible it self. I have seen datasheets like that from you
>before, but I'm missing them on the LPC parts.


Well, yes, sortof, maybe....

One of the things that annoys me (a lot!) about Atmel and Microchip is that
they have merged the datasheet and the user manual. Please (please, please
please), Philips don't merge the user manual and the data sheet. They are
both useful, but largely for different purposes. Pretty Please.

One of the things I definitely don't want is a datasheet heading out into
the multiple 100's of pages. You don't need that to describe timing,
voltages, pinouts and packages. The inner workings of the peripherals
properly belong in a well written user manual.

I think the current datasheets probably have a few items missing but not a
lot, the current user manuals have a few holes too. One of the things I
use data sheets for is checking closeness of fit. And I don't want to
waste reams of paper (literally) in the process of determining which micro
to use for a project.

C and assembly examples are good, but I've noticed that most manufacturers
only deal with the trivial case (often badly) in them.

>Another datasheet thing... The counter/timer/capture initialization is very
>confusing! I'm missing connection diagrams showing the logic inside how the
>actual "travel path is" from pin to MPU, the Prescaler logic etc. block
>diagrams etc. Some people like to read themselves to an answer, and some of
>us (like me for instance) learn better if the text is illustrated with some
>diagrams.

Good idea, but that's really a user manual thing not a data sheet thing.

>Again look at Atmel's ATmega128 datasheet look how easy Its all explained
>how they carry you through the registers etc.

I just did, what an awful datasheet. The thing's nearly 400 pages
long! You know Lasse, I have a sneaking suspicion we're not going to see
eye to eye on this :)

I suspect this is one of those splits like printed vs PDF only
documentation divides.

Robert

" 'Freedom' has no meaning of itself. There are always restrictions,
be they legal, genetic, or physical. If you don't believe me, try to
chew a radio signal. "

Kelvin Throop, III



--- In , "Lasse Madsen" <lasse.madsen@e...>
wrote:
> Dear Philips,
>
> I have some suggestions for making your LPC series datasheets
better...
> I've always thought that your datasheets where top of the line,
easy to read
> and quick to get around in... (Logic, PLL, etc..) > Please let me give you some suggestions and comments:
>
> 1)
> Sadly I find it quite difficult to even find a suitable datasheet
for my
> Part LPC2129... getting to the specific part page was easy
(applause for
> that! (Some manufacturers -ST for instance couldn't find a donkey
in a
> toilet)
>
> But!
>
> Now I'm at this page:
> http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/pip/LPC2129.html
>
> I press the datasheet link and I'm given a 34 page datasheet, Wow
excuse me
> but I guess this parts have more to it than just the supply
voltages!
>
> Come on Philips you can do better, why did I have to search your
website for
> an hour and ending up comparing pins on the LPC2114 and the LPC2129
to find
> a "match" or even a datasheet with more than 34 pages! This
discourages me
> to get started with that part when the manufacturer not even knows
how it
> works (or cant supply a real datasheet for it)!
>
<snip>

If you scroll to the bottom of the web page you reference above you
can easily find the 300 page User Manual.

Ian



Hi Ian,

>If you scroll to the bottom of the web page you reference above you
>can easily find the 300 page User Manual.

The problem was that I'm familiar with the word Datasheet for explaning all
the things about the part, and I've actually only seen the word user manual
being used for embedded modems where they are split up...

Any way I think as the "user manual" is the most important ting it should be
in the top of that list not "hidden" down the list :)

Regards
L. Madsen



--- In , "Lasse Madsen" <lasse.madsen@e...>
wrote:
> Hi Ian,
>
> >If you scroll to the bottom of the web page you reference above
you
> >can easily find the 300 page User Manual.
>
> The problem was that I'm familiar with the word Datasheet for
explaning all
> the things about the part, and I've actually only seen the word user
manual
> being used for embedded modems where they are split up...
>
> Any way I think as the "user manual" is the most important ting it
should be
> in the top of that list not "hidden" down the list :)

I feel your pain. I remember when TI first brought up their web site
with parts, etc (or maybe it was just when I first started using the
web). Their site was horrible and they actually had the nerve to make
you register to access *anything*! Now they have come full circle and
have the best web site around. They have home pages for product lines
that help you understand what the line is about and how it differs
from other product lines and what is common within the line. They
make it very easy to find a device page with nearly all the basic info
in the HTML so you don't need to download a data sheet just to find
out that it needs 2.35 volts or only has 3 IO pins. They even put a
link to the data sheet at the top of the page as well as in the
section with links to other documents. The only time I can't find a
document on the TI site is when they haven't released it yet!!! You
can even order samples directly from the page and get stock
information on distributors. Oh, and did I mention the parametric
tables and selection guides you can view that don't require you to pop
up other windows and go back and forth between them??? Huh Philips,
did I mention that? ;^)

So anyone who cares about improving their web pages (Cypress, Atmel,
nearly all the Asian companies and I won't even bother to mention ST
since I have given up on their web site long ago), take a look at the
TI site and see how to do it right. :)



At 11:33 AM 2/24/05 +0100, Lasse Madsen wrote:
> >If you scroll to the bottom of the web page you reference above you
> >can easily find the 300 page User Manual.
>The problem was that I'm familiar with the word Datasheet for explaning all
>the things about the part, and I've actually only seen the word user manual
>being used for embedded modems where they are split up...

Our experiences and expectations are, apparently, almost completely
reversed. All the microprocessors I'd used, until I ran into Microchips
back breaking idea of a data sheet, had a data sheet that was mostly
electrical with an overview of the on board peripherals, a user manual
which sometimes covered several variants, and an architecture and
instruction set manual which usually covered an entire family. That was
true for Intel, Motorola, ST, Siemens and the Japanese manufactures I'd had
a cursory look at. When I ran into Microchips data sheet I was quite
dismayed at what I had to wade through to get basic electrical
information. Some of them (Motorola comes to mind) actually had additional
supplements to describe various peripherals rather than repeat the
description in multiple user manuals.

>Any way I think as the "user manual" is the most important ting it should be
>in the top of that list not "hidden" down the list :)


Well I don't know about 'most' important ;), but it is equal to the data
sheet and architecture manual. And I agree there seems to be something
about the layout of Philips pages that makes if difficult to find
literature (and take forever to render). I've had to read some PIPs
several times to find either the datasheet or user manual.

On a similar note, from what I can see the best architecture and
instruction set manual is the "ARM Architecture Reference Manual". It is
commercial but you do end up with a proper perfect bound manual for a change.

I do miss TI's logic bible.

Robert

" 'Freedom' has no meaning of itself. There are always restrictions,
be they legal, genetic, or physical. If you don't believe me, try to
chew a radio signal. "

Kelvin Throop, III


Robert,

By "ARM Architecture Reference Manual" are you referring to Furber's "ARM
System-on-chip Architecture" book?

Curt

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Adsett [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 2:39 PM
To:
Subject: RE: [lpc2000] Re: Philips datasheet department... At 11:33 AM 2/24/05 +0100, Lasse Madsen wrote:
> >If you scroll to the bottom of the web page you reference above you
> >can easily find the 300 page User Manual.
>The problem was that I'm familiar with the word Datasheet for explaning
>all the things about the part, and I've actually only seen the word
>user manual being used for embedded modems where they are split up...

Our experiences and expectations are, apparently, almost completely
reversed. All the microprocessors I'd used, until I ran into Microchips
back breaking idea of a data sheet, had a data sheet that was mostly
electrical with an overview of the on board peripherals, a user manual which
sometimes covered several variants, and an architecture and instruction set
manual which usually covered an entire family. That was true for Intel,
Motorola, ST, Siemens and the Japanese manufactures I'd had a cursory look
at. When I ran into Microchips data sheet I was quite dismayed at what I
had to wade through to get basic electrical information. Some of them
(Motorola comes to mind) actually had additional supplements to describe
various peripherals rather than repeat the description in multiple user
manuals.

>Any way I think as the "user manual" is the most important ting it
>should be in the top of that list not "hidden" down the list :)


Well I don't know about 'most' important ;), but it is equal to the data
sheet and architecture manual. And I agree there seems to be something
about the layout of Philips pages that makes if difficult to find literature
(and take forever to render). I've had to read some PIPs several times to
find either the datasheet or user manual.

On a similar note, from what I can see the best architecture and instruction
set manual is the "ARM Architecture Reference Manual". It is commercial but
you do end up with a proper perfect bound manual for a change.

I do miss TI's logic bible.

Robert

" 'Freedom' has no meaning of itself. There are always restrictions, be
they legal, genetic, or physical. If you don't believe me, try to chew a
radio signal. "

Kelvin Throop, III

Yahoo! Groups Links




No, he is refering to a publication put out by ARM themselves. See:

http://www.arm.com/documentation/books/1183.html

Richard

--- In , "Curt Powell" <curt.powell@s...> wrote:
> Robert,
>
> By "ARM Architecture Reference Manual" are you referring to Furber's
"ARM
> System-on-chip Architecture" book?
>
> Curt
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Adsett [mailto:subscriptions@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 2:39 PM
> To:
> Subject: RE: [lpc2000] Re: Philips datasheet department... > At 11:33 AM 2/24/05 +0100, Lasse Madsen wrote:
> > >If you scroll to the bottom of the web page you reference above you
> > >can easily find the 300 page User Manual.
> >The problem was that I'm familiar with the word Datasheet for
explaning
> >all the things about the part, and I've actually only seen the word
> >user manual being used for embedded modems where they are split up...
>
> Our experiences and expectations are, apparently, almost completely
> reversed. All the microprocessors I'd used, until I ran into Microchips
> back breaking idea of a data sheet, had a data sheet that was mostly
> electrical with an overview of the on board peripherals, a user
manual which
> sometimes covered several variants, and an architecture and
instruction set
> manual which usually covered an entire family. That was true for Intel,
> Motorola, ST, Siemens and the Japanese manufactures I'd had a
cursory look
> at. When I ran into Microchips data sheet I was quite dismayed at
what I
> had to wade through to get basic electrical information. Some of them
> (Motorola comes to mind) actually had additional supplements to describe
> various peripherals rather than repeat the description in multiple user
> manuals.
>
> >Any way I think as the "user manual" is the most important ting it
> >should be in the top of that list not "hidden" down the list :) > Well I don't know about 'most' important ;), but it is equal to the data
> sheet and architecture manual. And I agree there seems to be something
> about the layout of Philips pages that makes if difficult to find
literature
> (and take forever to render). I've had to read some PIPs several
times to
> find either the datasheet or user manual.
>
> On a similar note, from what I can see the best architecture and
instruction
> set manual is the "ARM Architecture Reference Manual". It is
commercial but
> you do end up with a proper perfect bound manual for a change.
>
> I do miss TI's logic bible.
>
> Robert
>
> " 'Freedom' has no meaning of itself. There are always restrictions, be
> they legal, genetic, or physical. If you don't believe me, try to
chew a
> radio signal. "
>
> Kelvin Throop, III >
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links



----- Original Message -----
From: "Curt Powell" <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 4:05 PM
Subject: RE: [lpc2000] Re: Philips datasheet department... >
> Robert,
>
> By "ARM Architecture Reference Manual" are you referring to Furber's "ARM
> System-on-chip Architecture" book?

The "ARM ARM" is a different publication.

Leon --