PICSTART ICSP (& microchip annoyance"...)

Started by M Core July 30, 2004


Does anyone use a picstart plus to program incircuit flash chips??

I find it quite annoying that PIC doesn't want you to do it, and instead
made another $160US cable for this instead of making a simple buffer board
or something for the Picstart +.
ATMEL made a cable for theirs and it is only 29$ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've seen some guys that say they can do it. Others have had luck with this?
Just use pgd, pgc, gnd, vdd, /mclr pins?
The picstart + programs serially then, it isn't a parallel programmer?

(I've also seen someone selling some type of add-on to the picstart + but
not sure if it was ICSP or to just allow you to put a cable over your whole
IC when it is on the board).

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sure! all you need is build a level shifter to go in between the PIC and
the parallel port. or it may be simplier just to buy one off the shelf.
check out http://www.sparkfun.com click on "programmers" I like the PG1
and the PG3B. they both will program almost any PIC. for $8.95 can't be beat At 07:02 PM 7/30/2004, you wrote: >Does anyone use a picstart plus to program incircuit flash chips??
>
>I find it quite annoying that PIC doesn't want you to do it, and instead
>made another $160US cable for this instead of making a simple buffer board
>or something for the Picstart +.
>ATMEL made a cable for theirs and it is only 29$ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>I've seen some guys that say they can do it. Others have had luck with this?
> Just use pgd, pgc, gnd, vdd, /mclr pins?
>The picstart + programs serially then, it isn't a parallel programmer?
>
>(I've also seen someone selling some type of add-on to the picstart + but
>not sure if it was ICSP or to just allow you to put a cable over your whole
>IC when it is on the board).
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft SmartScreen
>Technology.
>http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID94&DI34&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
>
> Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN Premium right now and get the
>first two months FREE*. >
>
>to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the instructions
>Yahoo! Groups Links >
>





hi

Look at http://www.LancOS.com for SI Prog - Serial Interface for PonyProg I think it is easy way and cheap




>From: Daryl Berryhill <>
>Subject: Re: PICSTART ICSP (& microchip annoyance"...)

>sure! all you need is build a level shifter to go in between the PIC and
>the parallel port. or it may be simplier just to buy one off the shelf.
>check out http://www.sparkfun.com click on "programmers" I like the PG1
>and the PG3B. they both will program almost any PIC. for $8.95 can't be
>beat


Hi Dary,
The main point of the question was to use the PicStart Plus to do it, not
really buy or make a new programmer. (but yes I'm sure buying/making
another would work... although then usually that's another can of worms
making sure it supports all other chips etc.)

_________________________________________________________________
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yes, i use picstart plus to programm in-circuit flash PIC micros. Indeed,
there is a product that must be modified to accept programming. The cause is
RB7 and RB6 are shared to command an led display, so at programming moment
picstart is not enough (i say about power) to drive micro and display.

Be aware with power capabilities of picstart plus!!!

Good Luck! Wilson Antonieti Engenharia de Desenvolvimento Tel.: (11) 4223-5117 Fax.:
(11) 4223-5103 Visite nosso site: www.contemp.com.br
PRECIS AO SEU ALCANCE!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "M Core" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 8:52 PM
Subject: [piclist] Re: PICSTART ICSP (& microchip annoyance"...) >
> >From: Daryl Berryhill <>
> >Subject: Re: PICSTART ICSP (& microchip annoyance"...)
>
> >sure! all you need is build a level shifter to go in between the PIC and
> >the parallel port. or it may be simplier just to buy one off the shelf.
> >check out http://www.sparkfun.com click on "programmers" I like the
PG1
> >and the PG3B. they both will program almost any PIC. for $8.95 can't be
> >beat > Hi Dary,
> The main point of the question was to use the PicStart Plus to do it,
not
> really buy or make a new programmer. (but yes I'm sure buying/making
> another would work... although then usually that's another can of worms
> making sure it supports all other chips etc.)
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ >
>
> to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the
instructions
> Yahoo! Groups Links




I think this is more than an annoyance and goes well beyond the
PICStart product. Microchip has failed to help us when it comes to
using the ICSP pins on PICs for something other than programming.
They have only the meagerest of information on this topic so you are
forced to experiment. I usually put switches or high
resistance/impedence things on Data and Clock but it would be good to
have a set of rules and some cookbook circuits that can be directly
applied. Its not a super big deal when you are using a 40 pin PIC
but an 8 pin 12Fxxx is a different animal. I will but mention the
10F line...

What makes this suprising is that the level of product support from
microchip is otherwise simply incredible.

--- In , "Wilson" <wantoniet@y...> wrote:
> yes, i use picstart plus to programm in-circuit flash PIC micros.
Indeed,
> there is a product that must be modified to accept programming. The
cause is
> RB7 and RB6 are shared to command an led display, so at programming
moment
> picstart is not enough (i say about power) to drive micro and
display.
>
> Be aware with power capabilities of picstart plus!!!
>
> Good Luck! > Wilson Antonieti Engenharia de Desenvolvimento Tel.: (11) 4223-5117
Fax.:
> (11) 4223-5103 wilson@c... Visite nosso site: www.contemp.com.br
> PRECIS AO SEU ALCANCE!!!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "M Core" <cmosis5@h...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 8:52 PM
> Subject: [piclist] Re: PICSTART ICSP (& microchip annoyance"...) > >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: Daryl Berryhill <djberry@h...>
> > >Subject: Re: PICSTART ICSP (& microchip annoyance"...)
> >
> > >sure! all you need is build a level shifter to go in between the
PIC and
> > >the parallel port. or it may be simplier just to buy one off the
shelf.
> > >check out http://www.sparkfun.com click on "programmers" I
like the
> PG1
> > >and the PG3B. they both will program almost any PIC. for $8.95
can't be
> > >beat
> >
> >
> > Hi Dary,
> > The main point of the question was to use the PicStart Plus to
do it,
> not
> > really buy or make a new programmer. (but yes I'm sure
buying/making
> > another would work... although then usually that's another can of
worms
> > making sure it supports all other chips etc.)
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the
> instructions
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >





I assume you have read the In-circuit Serial Programming Guide. It
says the impedance of the programmer must be considered when designing
any interface to the programming pins, i.e., the programming pins serve
a dual function. Dual functions pins are not appropriate for cookbook
designing. The safe rule is high impedance or output only.

Chad

--- Phil <> wrote:

> I think this is more than an annoyance and goes well beyond the
> PICStart product. Microchip has failed to help us when it comes to
> using the ICSP pins on PICs for something other than programming.
> They have only the meagerest of information on this topic so you are
> forced to experiment. I usually put switches or high
> resistance/impedence things on Data and Clock but it would be good to
>
> have a set of rules and some cookbook circuits that can be directly
> applied. Its not a super big deal when you are using a 40 pin PIC
> but an 8 pin 12Fxxx is a different animal. I will but mention the
> 10F line...
>
> What makes this suprising is that the level of product support from
> microchip is otherwise simply incredible.
>
> --- In , "Wilson" <wantoniet@y...> wrote:
> > yes, i use picstart plus to programm in-circuit flash PIC micros.
> Indeed,
> > there is a product that must be modified to accept programming. The
>
> cause is
> > RB7 and RB6 are shared to command an led display, so at programming
>
> moment
> > picstart is not enough (i say about power) to drive micro and
> display.
> >
> > Be aware with power capabilities of picstart plus!!!
> >
> > Good Luck!
> >
> >
> > Wilson Antonieti Engenharia de Desenvolvimento Tel.: (11) 4223-5117
>
> Fax.:
> > (11) 4223-5103 wilson@c... Visite nosso site: www.contemp.com.br
> > PRECIS AO SEU ALCANCE!!!
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "M Core" <cmosis5@h...>
> > To: <>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 8:52 PM
> > Subject: [piclist] Re: PICSTART ICSP (& microchip annoyance"...)
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: Daryl Berryhill <djberry@h...>
> > > >Subject: Re: PICSTART ICSP (& microchip annoyance"...)
> > >
> > > >sure! all you need is build a level shifter to go in between the
>
> PIC and
> > > >the parallel port. or it may be simplier just to buy one off the
>
> shelf.
> > > >check out http://www.sparkfun.com click on "programmers" I
> like the
> > PG1
> > > >and the PG3B. they both will program almost any PIC. for $8.95
> can't be
> > > >beat
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Dary,
> > > The main point of the question was to use the PicStart Plus to
> do it,
> > not
> > > really buy or make a new programmer. (but yes I'm sure
> buying/making
> > > another would work... although then usually that's another can of
>
> worms
> > > making sure it supports all other chips etc.)
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> > > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > to unsubscribe, go to http://www.yahoogroups.com and follow the
> > instructions
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >


=====
My software has no bugs. Only undocumented features.
__________________________________



> I think this is more than an annoyance and goes well beyond the
> PICStart product. Microchip has failed to help us when it comes to
> using the ICSP pins on PICs for something other than programming.
> They have only the meagerest of information on this topic so you are
> forced to experiment.

I do not understand what you mean. All information that you need is in
the datasheet and/or the programming manual. The consequences for your
target circuit might be a bit complex, but that is not Microchips fault.

Note that the PICStart is not meant to be used for ICSP, so it is not
M'chips fault if it is not easy to use as such!

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products



I dont understand what you mean - all I've ever seen about what you
can and can't do on the ICSP pins in a PIC design (not a programmer)
is a short discussion on isolation in TB013. It says:

"As a designer, you must consider what type of circuitry is connected
to RB6 and RB7 and then make a decision on how to isolate these pins.
Figure 1 does not show any circuitry to isolate RB6 and RB7 on the
application circuit because this is very application dependent." It
also suggests that the designer NOT USE the programming pins though
they state that is unlikely to be realistic.

Unfortunately, it gives little guidance beyond "You must take into
consideration the output impedance of the programmer when isolating
RB6 and RB7 from the rest of the circuit". These are direct quotes.

Contrast this with how they describe isolating /MCLR which is very
specific.

Now Atmel, on the other hand, has a decent discussion on the ways you
can isolate the in-circuit programming pins with some ideas (iirc, 3
different ones) as to how to do it. Guess I like their approach
better.

--- In , "Wouter van Ooijen" <wouter@v...>
wrote:
> > I think this is more than an annoyance and goes well beyond the
> > PICStart product. Microchip has failed to help us when it comes
to
> > using the ICSP pins on PICs for something other than
programming.
> > They have only the meagerest of information on this topic so you
are
> > forced to experiment.
>
> I do not understand what you mean. All information that you need is
in
> the datasheet and/or the programming manual. The consequences for
your
> target circuit might be a bit complex, but that is not Microchips
fault.
>
> Note that the PICStart is not meant to be used for ICSP, so it is
not
> M'chips fault if it is not easy to use as such!
>
> Wouter van Ooijen
>
> -- -------
> Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl
> consultancy, development, PICmicro products





> I dont understand what you mean - all I've ever seen about what you
> can and can't do on the ICSP pins in a PIC design (not a programmer)
> is a short discussion on isolation in TB013. It says:

You said that you are forced to experiment, yet all the info is there so
you can just think it out. As a general rule
1) RB6 and RB7 must be connected to the rest of your circuit via
resistors that of a significantly higher impedance than the driving
impedance of your programmer (for instance my Wisp628 uses 47 ohm series
resistors in the programmer, so your 'isolation' resistors should be 1k
or more)
2) the 'fiddeling' of RB6/RB7 hould do no harm (for instance, don't
connect it to pyrotechnics, or a H-bridge without short-protection)

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products