On Dec 6, 1:25�am, Jon Kirwan <j...@infinitefactors.org> wrote:> On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:32:15 -0500, Mel Wilson > > <mwil...@the-wire.com> wrote: > >Jon Kirwan wrote: > > >> But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. > >> Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. > >> Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from > >> now and say "hi," eh? > > >The holes will probably outlast the tape. �"Time Team" is one of my favorite > >shows, and they're continually trying to deduce, since dirt right here is a > >slightly different color from the dirt over there, that Saxons must have > >built something out of wood. > > > � �Mel. > > Cool, yet another reason for holes rather than ink spots on > paper. > > JonHmmm, joining the party a bit late but... Is aluminum foil (I think plain kitchen foil) not longer lived than paper? Punching it at a 10 holes per mm (fairly dense but surely doable using things we have at hand like lasers, PLL-ed rotating mirrors etc.) will store >100 megabytes on an A4 sheet... Hopefully the morlocks will be smart enough to read that though. Dimiter ------------------------------------------------------ Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments http://www.tgi-sci.com ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/
Getting started with AVR and C
Started by ●November 24, 2012
Reply by ●December 5, 20122012-12-05
Reply by ●December 6, 20122012-12-06
On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 15:25:11 -0800, Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote:>On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 23:10:14 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com >wrote: > >>On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:17:50 -0800, Jon Kirwan >><jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >> >>>But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. >>>Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. >>>Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from >>>now and say "hi," eh? >> >>I guess a punched card (with a serial number in columns 73-80) made >>from some more durable material would be a good way to send such >>messages. > >Ah. The difference between ancient paged codices and scrolls. > >Hmm. Do I want future historians to handle codices or scrolls >of mine? Must think on that problem. ;) > >JonUnfortunately books printed on modern papers will deteriorate in a century or two due to the pH of current papers. Why would the paper tape last any longer ? Unless modern books are scanned and the scanned copies are copied to modern media every 10 years (how many paper tape and 1/2 inch mag tape readers are operational these days, what is the true life expectance for a burned CD), most current literature is lost in a century.
Reply by ●December 6, 20122012-12-06
On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 07:15:34 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:>On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 15:25:11 -0800, Jon Kirwan ><jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: > >>On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 23:10:14 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com >>wrote: >> >>>On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:17:50 -0800, Jon Kirwan >>><jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >>> >>>>But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. >>>>Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. >>>>Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from >>>>now and say "hi," eh? >>> >>>I guess a punched card (with a serial number in columns 73-80) made >>>from some more durable material would be a good way to send such >>>messages. >> >>Ah. The difference between ancient paged codices and scrolls. >> >>Hmm. Do I want future historians to handle codices or scrolls >>of mine? Must think on that problem. ;) >> >>Jon > >Unfortunately books printed on modern papers will deteriorate in a >century or two due to the pH of current papers. Why would the paper >tape last any longer ?I have a lot of the old papertapes around here. They are almost 50 years old, now. And in mint (perfect) shape. I'm looking at one right now. There is NO QUESTION in my mind that they will last many, many more groups of 50 years to come. (And I'm not counting the mylar.) These tapes are 4 mils thick. Almost cardstock. And oiled. Not fanfold, but coiled, and in their plastic holders. Otherwise, they were kept in attics, garages, sheds, and so on. Quite a range of humidities and temperatures. Looks flawless to the eye. Other than that, I've no idea. But if I cared about 1000 years from now, I would NOT use a DVD or a CD unless there were a process to copy them over and over. I'd use paper (or stone.)>Unless modern books are scanned and the scanned copies are copied to >modern media every 10 years (how many paper tape and 1/2 inch mag tape >readers are operational these days, what is the true life expectance >for a burned CD), most current literature is lost in a century.Yup. Libraries around the world have been studying long term storage issues. No DVD, even kept in optimal situations, appears certain to last more than 100 years or so according to two different studies I read a couple of years back. Anyway, it's all kind of interesting in an odd way. Jon
Reply by ●December 6, 20122012-12-06
On Wed, 5 Dec 2012 17:04:07 -0800 (PST), dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote:>On Dec 6, 1:25�am, Jon Kirwan <j...@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >> On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:32:15 -0500, Mel Wilson >> >> <mwil...@the-wire.com> wrote: >> >Jon Kirwan wrote: >> >> >> But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. >> >> Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. >> >> Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from >> >> now and say "hi," eh? >> >> >The holes will probably outlast the tape. �"Time Team" is one of my favorite >> >shows, and they're continually trying to deduce, since dirt right here is a >> >slightly different color from the dirt over there, that Saxons must have >> >built something out of wood. >> >> > � �Mel. >> >> Cool, yet another reason for holes rather than ink spots on >> paper. >> >> Jon > >Hmmm, joining the party a bit late but... > >Is aluminum foil (I think plain kitchen foil) not longer lived than >paper? >Punching it at a 10 holes per mm (fairly dense but surely doable using >things we have at hand like lasers, PLL-ed rotating mirrors etc.) will >store >100 megabytes on an A4 sheet... >Hopefully the morlocks will be smart enough to read that though. > >DimiterDoesn't flex. I've used the paper tapes I have a lot. They look mint, after a decade of occasional use and three more decades of simple storage. Foil may certainly serve some service in long term storage. But we already have LONG experience with paper, what works, what doesn't, and what kinds can actually survive a millennia because we actually still have surviving bits here and there despite many attempts to destroy (church seeking to destroy heretical materials) or repurpose the paper (monks reusing old documents to write new ones by scraping them first.) I would be worried about foils, more so that I would about paper. But to be honest, this isn't my field and I don't really know one way or another except what I have for personal experiences with using paper tape. Seems remarkable to me. I don't want to even think about the problems using foil. In any case, that's not fun for me. This is about a hobby idea, not solving the world's millennia long storage of data problems. Others are better at such problems than I am. I just like paper tape. Good stuff. Jon
Reply by ●December 6, 20122012-12-06
dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote in news:0259afc9-9d19-43c8-977f-ebfabe49cec6@8g2000yqp.googlegroups.com:> On Dec 6, 1:25�am, Jon Kirwan <j...@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >> On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:32:15 -0500, Mel Wilson >> >> <mwil...@the-wire.com> wrote: >> >Jon Kirwan wrote: >> >> >> But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. >> >> Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. >> >> Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from >> >> now and say "hi," eh? >> >> >The holes will probably outlast the tape. �"Time Team" is one of my >> >fa > vorite >> >shows, and they're continually trying to deduce, since dirt right >> >here i > s a >> >slightly different color from the dirt over there, that Saxons must >> >have built something out of wood. >> >> > � �Mel. >> >> Cool, yet another reason for holes rather than ink spots on >> paper. >> >> Jon > > Hmmm, joining the party a bit late but... > > Is aluminum foil (I think plain kitchen foil) not longer lived than > paper? > Punching it at a 10 holes per mm (fairly dense but surely doable using > things we have at hand like lasers, PLL-ed rotating mirrors etc.) will > store >100 megabytes on an A4 sheet... > Hopefully the morlocks will be smart enough to read that though. > > Dimiter >Unfortunately the only durable metal foils are of precious metals and your epic is likely to be recycled for jewlery or coinage long before the next civilisation develops an interest in archeology. I'd look at PTFE impregnated glassfibre cloth tape. <http://www.psadhesives.com/pdfs/ptfe-glass-cloth-tapes.pdf> have some non-adhesive ones on up to 30 meter rolls. To print on it you would need a custom ink with platinum black pigment in a PTFE binder, which would be thermally fused into the surface. <http://www.standardtechnical.com/page39a.html> -- Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED) ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & >32K emails --> NUL
Reply by ●December 6, 20122012-12-06
In article <0259afc9-9d19-43c8-977f-ebfabe49cec6@ 8g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>, dp@tgi-sci.com says...> > On Dec 6, 1:25�am, Jon Kirwan <j...@infinitefactors.org> wrote: > > On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:32:15 -0500, Mel Wilson > > > > <mwil...@the-wire.com> wrote: > > >Jon Kirwan wrote: > > > > >> But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. > > >> Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. > > >> Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from > > >> now and say "hi," eh? > > > > >The holes will probably outlast the tape. �"Time Team" is one of my favorite > > >shows, and they're continually trying to deduce, since dirt right here is a > > >slightly different color from the dirt over there, that Saxons must have > > >built something out of wood. > > > > > � �Mel. > > > > Cool, yet another reason for holes rather than ink spots on > > paper. > > > > Jon > > Hmmm, joining the party a bit late but... > > Is aluminum foil (I think plain kitchen foil) not longer lived than > paper? > Punching it at a 10 holes per mm (fairly dense but surely doable using > things we have at hand like lasers, PLL-ed rotating mirrors etc.) will > store >100 megabytes on an A4 sheet... > Hopefully the morlocks will be smart enough to read that though.Just keep that foil away from any acidic or basic solutions! If you want real archival storage, go back to the basics. Have your solenoids indent some good quality clay. Glaze and fire. You could also get colored patterns for optical sensing by filling the indentations with colored glaze before firing. A well-fired ceramic will outlast your paper tape---especially if you don't live in a desert area. To make sure it gets passed on from generation to generation, fashion your codex in the shape of a number of beer coasters! Nothing like continued utility to make sure something gets passed on to the kids! If you want to pass on your spoken word, how about an Edison phonograph with fired ceramic cylinders instead of wax? Mark Borgerson
Reply by ●December 6, 20122012-12-06
Mark Borgerson wrote:> In article <0259afc9-9d19-43c8-977f-ebfabe49cec6@ > 8g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>, dp@tgi-sci.com says... > > > > On Dec 6, 1:25 am, Jon Kirwan <j...@infinitefactors.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:32:15 -0500, Mel Wilson > > > > > > <mwil...@the-wire.com> wrote: > > > >Jon Kirwan wrote: > > > > > > >> But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. > > > >> Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. > > > >> Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from > > > >> now and say "hi," eh? > > > > > > >The holes will probably outlast the tape. "Time Team" is one of my favorite > > > >shows, and they're continually trying to deduce, since dirt right here is a > > > >slightly different color from the dirt over there, that Saxons must have > > > >built something out of wood. > > > > > > > Mel. > > > > > > Cool, yet another reason for holes rather than ink spots on > > > paper. > > > > > > Jon > > > > Hmmm, joining the party a bit late but... > > > > Is aluminum foil (I think plain kitchen foil) not longer lived than > > paper? > > Punching it at a 10 holes per mm (fairly dense but surely doable using > > things we have at hand like lasers, PLL-ed rotating mirrors etc.) will > > store >100 megabytes on an A4 sheet... > > Hopefully the morlocks will be smart enough to read that though. > > Just keep that foil away from any acidic or basic solutions! > > If you want real archival storage, go back to the basics. Have > your solenoids indent some good quality clay. Glaze and fire. > You could also get colored patterns for optical sensing by > filling the indentations with colored glaze before firing. > > A well-fired ceramic will outlast your paper tape---especially > if you don't live in a desert area. To make sure it > gets passed on from generation to generation, fashion your > codex in the shape of a number of beer coasters! Nothing > like continued utility to make sure something gets passed > on to the kids! > > If you want to pass on your spoken word, how about an > Edison phonograph with fired ceramic cylinders instead > of wax? >For real duration broadcast your data into space. Observatories are still looking at echoes of the big bang back 12Billion or so years, much long than any material will last unchanged. Recovery may require the technology of tomorrow. w..
Reply by ●December 6, 20122012-12-06
On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 10:55:19 -0500, Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> wrote:> > >Mark Borgerson wrote: > >> In article <0259afc9-9d19-43c8-977f-ebfabe49cec6@ >> 8g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>, dp@tgi-sci.com says... >> > >> > On Dec 6, 1:25 am, Jon Kirwan <j...@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >> > > On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:32:15 -0500, Mel Wilson >> > > >> > > <mwil...@the-wire.com> wrote: >> > > >Jon Kirwan wrote: >> > > >> > > >> But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. >> > > >> Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. >> > > >> Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from >> > > >> now and say "hi," eh? >> > > >> > > >The holes will probably outlast the tape. "Time Team" is one of my favorite >> > > >shows, and they're continually trying to deduce, since dirt right here is a >> > > >slightly different color from the dirt over there, that Saxons must have >> > > >built something out of wood. >> > > >> > > > Mel. >> > > >> > > Cool, yet another reason for holes rather than ink spots on >> > > paper. >> > > >> > > Jon >> > >> > Hmmm, joining the party a bit late but... >> > >> > Is aluminum foil (I think plain kitchen foil) not longer lived than >> > paper? >> > Punching it at a 10 holes per mm (fairly dense but surely doable using >> > things we have at hand like lasers, PLL-ed rotating mirrors etc.) will >> > store >100 megabytes on an A4 sheet... >> > Hopefully the morlocks will be smart enough to read that though. >> >> Just keep that foil away from any acidic or basic solutions! >> >> If you want real archival storage, go back to the basics. Have >> your solenoids indent some good quality clay. Glaze and fire. >> You could also get colored patterns for optical sensing by >> filling the indentations with colored glaze before firing. >> >> A well-fired ceramic will outlast your paper tape---especially >> if you don't live in a desert area. To make sure it >> gets passed on from generation to generation, fashion your >> codex in the shape of a number of beer coasters! Nothing >> like continued utility to make sure something gets passed >> on to the kids! >> >> If you want to pass on your spoken word, how about an >> Edison phonograph with fired ceramic cylinders instead >> of wax? >> > >For real duration broadcast your data into space. >Observatories are still looking at echoes of the big bang >back 12Billion or so years, much long than any material >will last unchanged. > >Recovery may require the technology of tomorrow.I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it -- although it may be up-thread somewhere in the drifting topics -- but the 10,000-year clock project is a real effort to pass information forward a few millennia. http://longnow.org/clock/ -- Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
Reply by ●December 6, 20122012-12-06
On Dec 6, 4:05�pm, Ian Malcolm <See.My.Sig.for.em...@totally.invalid> wrote:> dp <d...@tgi-sci.com> wrote innews: > .... > > Is aluminum foil (I think plain kitchen foil) not longer lived than > > paper? > > Punching it at a 10 holes per mm (fairly dense but surely doable using > > things we have at hand like lasers, PLL-ed rotating mirrors etc.) will > > store >100 megabytes on an A4 sheet... > > Hopefully the morlocks will be smart enough to read that though. > > > Dimiter > > Unfortunately the only durable metal foils are of precious metals and > your epic is likely to be recycled for jewlery or coinage long before the > next civilisation develops an interest in archeology.Hmmm, true of course. Gold foil will last but we will have to do better with the pyramids to store it in than the Egyptians did, otherwise the morlocks will always get only fragments and thus CRC errors - at best.> I'd look at PTFE impregnated glassfibre cloth tape. > <http://www.psadhesives.com/pdfs/ptfe-glass-cloth-tapes.pdf> > have some non-adhesive ones on up to 30 meter rolls.Well Teflon should be long lived indeed but we can only extrapolate on its longevity, too new. I wonder if there are people who really want to do something in the data longevity field who have already made CDs with some highly durable plastic (or plain glass?), gold plated (there we go, pyramids again). Likely so, come to think of it.> To print on it you would need a custom ink with platinum black pigment in > a PTFE binder, which would be thermally fused into the surface. > <http://www.standardtechnical.com/page39a.html>Yes, that would make the pyramids unnecessary. But then who knows, those future beasts may use the things as jewelry or toilet paper, we should never underestimate their inventiveness. Walters idea to beam the data into space and let those who capture it worry about it is probably best, long-term speaking. I wonder whether ants are interested in parsecs the way we seem to be interested in millenia, universe age etc. :D . Dimiter ------------------------------------------------------ Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments http://www.tgi-sci.com ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/
Reply by ●December 6, 20122012-12-06
Le 06/12/2012 00:25, Jon Kirwan a �crit :> On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 23:10:14 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com > wrote: > >> On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:17:50 -0800, Jon Kirwan >> <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >> >>> But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. >>> Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. >>> Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from >>> now and say "hi," eh? >> >> I guess a punched card (with a serial number in columns 73-80) made >>from some more durable material would be a good way to send such >> messages. > > Ah. The difference between ancient paged codices and scrolls. > > Hmm. Do I want future historians to handle codices or scrolls > of mine? Must think on that problem. ;) >Nothing lasts longer than carved stone, prepare your chisel!
