Newby Getting started with FPGA

<Huianx> wrote in message 
news:42286153$0$31619$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>I am new to the FPGA and I want to learn by small experiments.
>
> Can some FPGA experts tell me what is the easiest and least expensive way 
> of getting started ?

http://www.howell1964.freeserve.co.uk/logic/burched/fpga_devkit_b5.htm

Very competitive price.
Looks the cheapest, and is the most versatile because it doesn't give you 
features you might not want.

Individual projects tend to have their own requirements, so you build those 
bits yourself.

Some things tend to crop up often, and you can buy those ready-made as 
required.
(RAM, IDE, CF, KBD, MSE, DACs, VGA, buzzer etc).

In term of choosing which FPGA board to buy, the best way to do is to
write the code for your project FIRST, simulate, synthesize and place
and route it. Verify everything works then buy the FPGA board LATER.
I said this because by the time you verify that everything works in the
simulation environment, you already know what features of the FPGA
board you will need for your project. If you buy the FPGA board now,
you may overspend your money on the FPGA that has all the bells and
whistles you don't need, or underspend your money on the FPGA that
doesn't have all the features you want.

Hendra

"Kryten" <kryten_droid_obfusticator@ntlworld.com> wrote in message 
news:zfmWd.4053$4x2.2947@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
> <Huianx> wrote in message 
> news:42286153$0$31619$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>I am new to the FPGA and I want to learn by small experiments.
>>
>> Can some FPGA experts tell me what is the easiest and least expensive way 
>> of getting started ?
>
> http://www.howell1964.freeserve.co.uk/logic/burched/fpga_devkit_b5.htm

http://www.burched.biz/

>
> Very competitive price.
> Looks the cheapest, and is the most versatile because it doesn't give you 
> features you might not want.
>
> Individual projects tend to have their own requirements, so you build 
> those bits yourself.
>
> Some things tend to crop up often, and you can buy those ready-made as 
> required.
> (RAM, IDE, CF, KBD, MSE, DACs, VGA, buzzer etc).


xilinx S3 starter kit is a lot cheaper US$99 verus US$236
but Tony Burch does free fpga replacement if you blow your chip up.

www.digilentinc.com make the S3 starter kit for xilinx
and offer add on modules
Also offer the S3 board with up to a 1 mil gate S3 for an extra US$50
(add board to shopping cart and options come up)

also a S3e board on the way from Digilentinc / Xilinx
http://www.xilinx.com/products/spartan3e/s3eboards.htm
quarter3 2005


Alex 

For those (like me) who has no experience in FPGA programming, can you 
suggest which SW tool(s) (free or low-cost) would be good to start with for 
vendor independent learning ?


> In term of choosing which FPGA board to buy, the best way to do is to
> write the code for your project FIRST, simulate, synthesize and place
> and route it. Verify everything works then buy the FPGA board LATER.
> I said this because by the time you verify that everything works in the
> simulation environment, you already know what features of the FPGA
> board you will need for your project. If you buy the FPGA board now,
> you may overspend your money on the FPGA that has all the bells and
> whistles you don't need, or underspend your money on the FPGA that
> doesn't have all the features you want.
>
> Hendra
> 

KJ wrote:
> For those (like me) who has no experience in FPGA programming, can
you
> suggest which SW tool(s) (free or low-cost) would be good to start
with for
> vendor independent learning ?

Xilinx offers their free version of synthesis tool called Webpack which
can be downloaded at www.xilinx.com/ise/webpack . In the webpage, you
can also download a third party simulator called ModelSim for free. The
free software are more than enough for beginners. Webpack supports up
to 1.5 Million gates, which is quite HUGE. ModelSim free version
simulates at full speed up to 500 lines of code, after that it slows
down but still works. If you want to spend a little bit of money you
can buy Xilinx 6.3i Student Version from Prentice Hall
vig.prenhall.com/catalog/academic/product/0,1144,0131858394,00.html
>From what I have been told, the Student Version is basically the same
with the professional version called Xilinx ISE BaseX but at huge
discount price. The only limitation is you can not use it for
commercial purposes and you are not eligible for tech support.
The software are very much vendor independent, as long as you don't use
the vendor specific primitive library or the Core Generator. Just use
standard Verilog or VHDL keywords.
Altera also offers their free old software called MaxPlusII and newer
one called Quartus. But the simulator that comes with MaxPlusII has
severe limitation, it doesn't supports testbench at all. I won't
recommend it for anyone. Perhaps the free version of Quartus doesn't
have such limitaton, I don't know, you can try.

Hendra

"Alex Gibson" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message 
news:38vqkjF5s3au9U1@individual.net...
>
> Xilinx S3 starter kit is a lot cheaper US$99 versus US$236

Hmm, yes, that is a big difference.

What's the explanation?

Are Digilent selling them at cost price?

Tony seems a fair guy, I doubt he would overcharge.

> but Tony Burch does free FPGA replacement if you blow your chip up.

That's reassuring to know.

Personally I like the physical format of the BurchEd boards.

If I were to make a project with LEDs and switches I would want to have them 
mounted where I want and in my choice of colours, not fixed on the FPGA 
board itself. The less pins the FPGA decides to use, the more freedom I have 
to use them.

> also a S3e board on the way from DigilentInc / Xilinx
> http://www.xilinx.com/products/spartan3e/s3eboards.htm

Kryten wrote:
> If I were to make a project with LEDs and switches I would want to
have them
> mounted where I want and in my choice of colours, not fixed on the
FPGA
> board itself. The less pins the FPGA decides to use, the more freedom
I have
> to use them.

That's a very good point, Kryten! I am very dissapointed with the board
layout of Digilent S3 starter kit. Its board layout should have been
the same with their D2SB and D2FT board. D2SB and D2FT are bare bone
FPGA boards. They offer an extension board that has LEDs, Switches and
Buttons but since they can be plug in and plug out at will, no I/O pins
have been hardwired to the extension board. On the other hand, the
Digilent S3 starter kit has 32 I/O pins hardwired already to the
onboard switches, LEDs and buttons. Those 32 I/O pins are not available
for any other purposes.

Hendra

"Hendra" <u1000393@email.sjsu.edu> wrote in message 
news:1110153552.755274.22750@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

> That's a very good point, Kryten! I am very disappointed with the board
> layout of Digilent S3 starter kit. Its board layout should have been
> the same with their D2SB and D2FT board. D2SB and D2FT are bare bone
> FPGA boards.

Yes, the whole point of buying an FPGA board is because you have your own 
purposes for those pins.

But there's always some pointy haired sales droid who wants more features.


I never thought I'd object to something having more stuff for less than half 
the price of a competing product, but I can't help suspecting some 
unconventional business ethics here.
I'd expect the Digilent board to cost at least three times its price, given 
that it has more bits than the > 210 USD BurchEd board. from typical 
mark-ups (3x), I'd say the board was being sold at cost price. In which 
case, who is paying the production costs?

It is okay for Xilinx to give away software only they produce, but if they 
are paying Digilent to sell boards at cost then it is an underhand blow to 
the other manufacturers of Xilinx dev kits. Surely that would put them out 
of business eventually. Maybe Xilinx want to reduce the number of players to 
just their own favourite?

"Kryten" <kryten_droid_obfusticator@ntlworld.com> wrote in message 
news:86OWd.7125$MK5.4250@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "Hendra" <u1000393@email.sjsu.edu> wrote in message 
> news:1110153552.755274.22750@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>> That's a very good point, Kryten! I am very disappointed with the board
>> layout of Digilent S3 starter kit. Its board layout should have been
>> the same with their D2SB and D2FT board. D2SB and D2FT are bare bone
>> FPGA boards.
>
> Yes, the whole point of buying an FPGA board is because you have your own 
> purposes for those pins.
>
> But there's always some pointy haired sales droid who wants more features.
>
>
> I never thought I'd object to something having more stuff for less than 
> half the price of a competing product, but I can't help suspecting some 
> unconventional business ethics here.
> I'd expect the Digilent board to cost at least three times its price, 
> given that it has more bits than the > 210 USD BurchEd board. from typical 
> mark-ups (3x), I'd say the board was being sold at cost price. In which 
> case, who is paying the production costs?
>
> It is okay for Xilinx to give away software only they produce, but if they 
> are paying Digilent to sell boards at cost then it is an underhand blow to 
> the other manufacturers of Xilinx dev kits. Surely that would put them out 
> of business eventually. Maybe Xilinx want to reduce the number of players 
> to just their own favourite?

Look at where Digilentinc came from, education market.
Basically boards that a student can afford to buy themselves.

Its lot easier for lecturers/tutors if the board has a basic set of
fixed peripherals. Less likely to get fpgas blown up as well.

More advanced / capable students can design and build their own addons.

I'd expect Digilentinc / Xilinx are selling a lot more than Tony Birch.

Also for the future expose as many students as possible, so
they become fimiliar with your products.
AFAIK here in Australia most universities use Xilinx products.

How long before Altera comes out with a similar competing kit with
their newer parts rather than their existing student kits based on old 
products?

Alex

"Hendra" <u1000393@email.sjsu.edu> wrote in message 
news:1110139344.378413.55420@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> KJ wrote:
>> For those (like me) who has no experience in FPGA programming, can
> you
>> suggest which SW tool(s) (free or low-cost) would be good to start
> with for
>> vendor independent learning ?
>
> Xilinx offers their free version of synthesis tool called Webpack which
> can be downloaded at www.xilinx.com/ise/webpack . In the webpage, you
> can also download a third party simulator called ModelSim for free. The
> free software are more than enough for beginners. Webpack supports up
> to 1.5 Million gates, which is quite HUGE. ModelSim free version
> simulates at full speed up to 500 lines of code, after that it slows
> down but still works. If you want to spend a little bit of money you
> can buy Xilinx 6.3i Student Version from Prentice Hall
> vig.prenhall.com/catalog/academic/product/0,1144,0131858394,00.html
>>From what I have been told, the Student Version is basically the same
> with the professional version called Xilinx ISE BaseX but at huge
> discount price. The only limitation is you can not use it for
> commercial purposes and you are not eligible for tech support.
> The software are very much vendor independent, as long as you don't use
> the vendor specific primitive library or the Core Generator. Just use
> standard Verilog or VHDL keywords.
> Altera also offers their free old software called MaxPlusII and newer
> one called Quartus. But the simulator that comes with MaxPlusII has
> severe limitation, it doesn't supports testbench at all. I won't
> recommend it for anyone. Perhaps the free version of Quartus doesn't
> have such limitaton, I don't know, you can try.
>
> Hendra

I'm wondering if xilinx will keep supplying modelsim with webpack for 7.1
now they have gone back to having a builtin simulator ?
>