Jim Stewart wrote:> Grant Edwards wrote: > >> On 2005-06-21, Paul Carpenter <paul$@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> wrote: >> >> >>> You want a USB CF card to be WinXP compliant *without* a file >>> system? That is an oxymoron like Military Intelligence... >> >> >> >> Leave it to MS to make the simplest, most obvious use of a >> device impossible. > > > Does Win XP provide any way to read/write the > raw sectors of the device?As OP I say that is *KEY* !!! Actually I presumed capability of writing/reading physically sequential raw sectors. Does any of this conflict with what I said in 'Revised draft of " [OT?] a SIMPLISTIC RS232 data logger using some flash device --- does it exist commercially?" ' ? If not, that's> the real Microsoft fsk.
[OT?] a SIMPLISTIC RS232 data logger using some flash device --- does it exist commercially?
Started by ●June 21, 2005
Reply by ●June 23, 20052005-06-23
Reply by ●June 23, 20052005-06-23
On Thursday, in article <11bm45r5dnt9kc2@corp.supernews.com>
rowlett@atlascomm.net "Richard Owlett" wrote:
>My thanks to the group for providing useful input in response to a
>poorly defined question.
>
>I had broken my problem statement into three parts.
>1. what I wanted to accomplish
>2. a view of possible solution
>3. thoughts on what hardware might satisfy needs/desires/aesthetics
>
>Unfortunately my original post pureed all into amorphous glob.
>My apologies.
>
>I'll break things down in above groupings.
>
>1. What am I looking for
>It might be described as "data logger" or a "very large FIFO".
>
>The input will be an RS232 data stream terminated by <CR><LF> of no more
>than 100 bytes at 4800 BAUD occurring once per second.
>
>It shall buffer/store at least 10 mega bytes
>
>The output shall be via USB
> 1. I wish to take advantage of USB speed
> 2. My computer has available USB port(s)
> 3. My computer does *not* have available serial port(s)
USB to serial port adapters exist, they are not expensive.
>
>2. Possible solutions
>Flash devices are large and do not require power to maintain data.
>There are environments such as FORTH which can presume any mass storage
>device/system to be a sequence of nnn byte blocks/sectors/whatever
Flash to store the data in whether flash chips, CF card or other type
is perfectly OK, as long as the logger can address the device either
directly or by keeping track of which sector it is on.
Your own internal flash chips sodler on the board reduces reliability problems
of connectors or wrong type of CF card installed.
>3. available hardware
>Let's just forget how badly I mangled this one ;{
>
>
>Is this a better problem definition?
Alternative 1
=============
As myself and others said before look at FTDI USB<->serial adapters, then
have the flash inside the device log the data via RS232 at 4800baud.
Then when you need to talk to the PC use the USB to RS232 adapter at very
much higher baud rate (115000 or higher should be possible on most micros)
Use a simple application on the PC to read the device using a USB pseudo
serial port.
This has the advantage of you DON'T have to add USB hardware and software
as well as the RS232, and you only need ONE serial port. The flash can be
soldered on board a smaller and more portable and SEALABLE weatherproof
device.
Also you don't have to get your USB checked on hundreds of USB combinations
and buy IDs etc..
Alternative 2
=============
Using a CF card in a PC without a file system and doing raw read/writes
has a basic problem. Windows allows raw read/writes when a physical drive
exists and has a drive letter. CF card does not have a drive letter until
the Plug and Play from detecting the CF enumerates it and does an auto mount
including mount a filesystem. Until you either bypass that mounting of file
system or only allow format of device options that windows has on automounting
of a device, you wont be able to do raw read/write on a drive that may not
yet exist to the system. Floppies and other devices can do raw read/write
because the drive physically exists and exists as far as system is concerned.
As someone else has said know what the format of the device is and skip the
filesystem blocks is one way, but bear in mind as the CF cards get larger
they maybe formatted as FAT16 or FAT32 depending on size of the CF card.
That in turn will affect your coding.
CF cards and connectors means all sorts of other reliability issues of the
connectors, CF card brands supported, mechanical considerations for sealing
and durability.
Those are the basic choices, decide what you want from the product as a
whole in usability, reliability and other aspects, using the same serial port
in playback mode means less openings and connections to deal with.
--
Paul Carpenter | paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk
<http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/> PC Services
<http://www.gnuh8.org.uk/> GNU H8 & mailing list info
<http://www.badweb.org.uk/> For those web sites you hate
Reply by ●June 23, 20052005-06-23
"Richard Owlett" <rowlett@atlascomm.net> wrote in message news:11bm45r5dnt9kc2@corp.supernews.com...> My thanks to the group for providing useful input in response to a > poorly defined question. > > I had broken my problem statement into three parts. > 1. what I wanted to accomplish > 2. a view of possible solution > 3. thoughts on what hardware might satisfy needs/desires/aesthetics > > Unfortunately my original post pureed all into amorphous glob. > My apologies. > > I'll break things down in above groupings. > > 1. What am I looking for > It might be described as "data logger" or a "very large FIFO". > > The input will be an RS232 data stream terminated by <CR><LF> of no more > than 100 bytes at 4800 BAUD occurring once per second. > > It shall buffer/store at least 10 mega bytes > > The output shall be via USB > 1. I wish to take advantage of USB speed > 2. My computer has available USB port(s) > 3. My computer does *not* have available serial port(s)<snip> Easy solution - Buy RS232 to USB converter, log data in HyperTerminal on laptop :) I've just finished making something similar to what you describe. It has 2 RS232 ports and a CompactFlash card. The RS232 data is timestamped and stored on the card in the FAT16 file system. Therefore it can be read with a USB CompactFlash card reader in Windows. Do you want to buy this kind of thing or make it yourself? What is the purpose of collecting the data? Ross
Reply by ●June 23, 20052005-06-23
In article <11bm45r5dnt9kc2@corp.supernews.com>, rowlett@atlascomm.net wrote:>My thanks to the group for providing useful input in response to a >poorly defined question. > >I had broken my problem statement into three parts. >1. what I wanted to accomplish >2. a view of possible solution >3. thoughts on what hardware might satisfy needs/desires/aesthetics > >Unfortunately my original post pureed all into amorphous glob. >My apologies. > >I'll break things down in above groupings. > >1. What am I looking for >It might be described as "data logger" or a "very large FIFO". > >The input will be an RS232 data stream terminated by <CR><LF> of no more >than 100 bytes at 4800 BAUD occurring once per second. > >It shall buffer/store at least 10 mega bytes > >The output shall be via USB > 1. I wish to take advantage of USB speed > 2. My computer has available USB port(s) > 3. My computer does *not* have available serial port(s) > > >2. Possible solutions >Flash devices are large and do not require power to maintain data. >There are environments such as FORTH which can presume any mass storage >device/system to be a sequence of nnn byte blocks/sectors/whatever > >3. available hardware >Let's just forget how badly I mangled this one ;{ > > >Is this a better problem definition?You forgot two very important details: 1. Do you only need one of these or do you need hundreds or thousands of these? 2. Do you want to build one or do you want to buy one? If you only need one of these and it's OK to buy instead of build, then buy a used iPaq (or other PDA) from eBay. It's small, cheap, has a serial port, it has a USB port and it can store 32 or 64 or 128 MB or even more if you add a memory card. Software to do GPS and/or raw serial data logging is freely available. I use my iPaq for this purpose all the time. A few other details which other people have already asked but I'll repeat them here again: 3. Is there a physical size limitation for this device? 4. Are there any requirements on the user interface? 5. Are there any power consumption / battery life requirements? --Tom.
Reply by ●June 24, 20052005-06-24
Jim Stewart wrote:> Grant Edwards wrote: > >> On 2005-06-21, Paul Carpenter <paul$@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> wrote: >> >> >>> You want a USB CF card to be WinXP compliant *without* a file >>> system? That is an oxymoron like Military Intelligence... >> >> >> >> Leave it to MS to make the simplest, most obvious use of a >> device impossible. > > > Does Win XP provide any way to read/write the > raw sectors of the device? If not, that's > the real Microsoft fsk.Yes, It does, I know at least a program , an hex file editor, "hex workshop" if I remember well, that is able to open "raw" device , but I am not totally sure about it's capabilites ( if effectively do what they claims ), I tried with a secure digital card and an USB reader and seems to work.
Reply by ●June 24, 20052005-06-24
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:18:59 -0500, Richard Owlett <rowlett@atlascomm.net> wrote:>Jim Stewart wrote: >> Grant Edwards wrote: >> >>> On 2005-06-21, Paul Carpenter <paul$@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> You want a USB CF card to be WinXP compliant *without* a file >>>> system? That is an oxymoron like Military Intelligence... >>> >>> >>> >>> Leave it to MS to make the simplest, most obvious use of a >>> device impossible. >> >> >> Does Win XP provide any way to read/write the >> raw sectors of the device? > >As OP I say that is *KEY* !!! >Actually I presumed capability of writing/reading physically sequential >raw sectors. > >Does any of this conflict with what I said in >'Revised draft of " [OT?] a SIMPLISTIC RS232 data logger using some >flash device --- does it exist commercially?" ' ? >About half-way down the page there's a rs232 to MMC/SD card kit using a pic. http://www.compsys1.com/workbench/
Reply by ●June 24, 20052005-06-24
Tom wrote:> In article <11bm45r5dnt9kc2@corp.supernews.com>, rowlett@atlascomm.net wrote: > >>My thanks to the group for providing useful input in response to a >>poorly defined question. >> >>I had broken my problem statement into three parts. >>1. what I wanted to accomplish >>2. a view of possible solution >>3. thoughts on what hardware might satisfy needs/desires/aesthetics >> >>Unfortunately my original post pureed all into amorphous glob. >>My apologies. >> >>I'll break things down in above groupings. >> >>1. What am I looking for >>It might be described as "data logger" or a "very large FIFO". >> >>The input will be an RS232 data stream terminated by <CR><LF> of no more >>than 100 bytes at 4800 BAUD occurring once per second. >> >>It shall buffer/store at least 10 mega bytes >> >>The output shall be via USB >> 1. I wish to take advantage of USB speed >> 2. My computer has available USB port(s) >> 3. My computer does *not* have available serial port(s) >> >> >>2. Possible solutions >>Flash devices are large and do not require power to maintain data. >>There are environments such as FORTH which can presume any mass storage >>device/system to be a sequence of nnn byte blocks/sectors/whatever >> >>3. available hardware >>Let's just forget how badly I mangled this one ;{ >> >> >>Is this a better problem definition? > > > You forgot two very important details: > 1. Do you only need one of these or do you need hundreds or thousands of > these?Only one.> 2. Do you want to build one or do you want to buy one?Buy.> > If you only need one of these and it's OK to buy instead of build, then buy a > used iPaq (or other PDA) from eBay. It's small, cheap, has a serial port, it > has a USB port and it can store 32 or 64 or 128 MB or even more if you add a > memory card. Software to do GPS and/or raw serial data logging is freely > available. I use my iPaq for this purpose all the time.I didn't know of PDA's using USB to connect with a desktop PC. I had only noticed units using RS232 or Bluetooth ( I wish to use neither of those. )> > A few other details which other people have already asked but I'll repeat them > here again: > 3. Is there a physical size limitation for this device?Size isn't tightly restricted. It needs to conveniently travel on dash with accompanying GPS mouse receiver. But availability of PDA with USB opens up possibility of using GPS receiver that plugs into CF slot. This is for a home project that I may not use for long so I would like to stay under a couple of hundred dollars. If the ideas I'm playing with work,I might use it for a couple of years.> 4. Are there any requirements on the user interface?Not really. I'm willing to trade inconvenience for low cost.> 5. Are there any power consumption / battery life requirements?It needs to be battery operated but will spend most of its operating time plugged into a cigarette lighter or a wall wart. Some have suggested a laptop as the logger. Too big. Too expensive.> > --Tom.
Reply by ●June 24, 20052005-06-24
Richard Owlett wrote:> I didn't know of PDA's using USB to connect with a desktop PC. I had > only noticed units using RS232 or Bluetooth ( I wish to use neither of > those. )If either of those options exist then the converters from RS232 or Bluetooth into USB are readily available and quite cheap (Bluetooth/USB) dongle is about �10/$14). Although I am also certain that one of the PDA's allows hook-up to a PC via USB and also features RS232. -- ******************************************************************** Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://peb@amleth.demon.co.uk> Forth based HIDECS Consultancy .....<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/> Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095 Going Forth Safely ....EBA. http://www.electric-boat-association.org.uk/ ********************************************************************
Reply by ●June 24, 20052005-06-24
"Paul E. Bennett" <peb@amleth.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:d9h5dg$ed6$1$830fa795@news.demon.co.uk...> Richard Owlett wrote: > >> I didn't know of PDA's using USB to connect with a desktop PC. I had >> only noticed units using RS232 or Bluetooth ( I wish to use neither of >> those. ) > > If either of those options exist then the converters from RS232 or > Bluetooth into USB are readily available and quite cheap (Bluetooth/USB) > dongle is about �10/$14). Although I am also certain that one of the PDA's > allows hook-up to a PC via USB and also features RS232.USB connectivity seems to be standard on e.g. the iPAQ range. And there's always Bluetooth, of course. Steve http://www.fivetrees.com
Reply by ●June 24, 20052005-06-24
dmm wrote:> [snip] > > > About half-way down the page there's a rs232 to MMC/SD card kit using a pic. > http://www.compsys1.com/workbench/ > >*THANK YOU* *EUREKA* *ALLELUIA* Can you tell you have identified what I was grouping towards ;} I was dreamin of pre-assembled and tested. Although haven't used a soldering iron in quarter century, guess I still remember which end burns fingers. [ PS I'm so old that I won a Blue Ribbon in a Jr. High Science Fair with a 6AL5 full wave rectifier ;] I'll have to spend some serious time on that site. They have some things there that open up a plethora of possibilities. I say plethora to hint at benign version of "Pandora's box".
