[AD] New low cost ARM7 boards are released

In comp.sys.arm An Schwob in the USA <schwobus@aol.com> wrote:
: None of them.  Use a PC if you want to run any Linux, that's a system
: ready to face all the memory requirements of Linux.  These devices are
: stand alone microcontrollers with the memory on chip.  The memory
: requirements of Linux are downright a joke for embedded memory.
: Linux = external memory = more complex board = higher price.
: The money you think you save by using Linux you will spend big time in
: additional hardware.

Ok I'll byte.

First off, I think you were right a few years ago, and now there multichip 
boards that support linux and are beginning to get fairly cheap.

The big question is how long before we get the Linux SOC? 3/5/8 years?
Full linux not uClinux.

"J Jackson" <jj@comp.leeds.ac.uk> wrote in message 
news:dg9c6p$geq$1@iss-nntp.leeds.ac.uk...
> In comp.sys.arm An Schwob in the USA <schwobus@aol.com> wrote:
> : None of them.  Use a PC if you want to run any Linux, that's a system
> : ready to face all the memory requirements of Linux.  These devices are
> : stand alone microcontrollers with the memory on chip.  The memory
> : requirements of Linux are downright a joke for embedded memory.
> : Linux = external memory = more complex board = higher price.
> : The money you think you save by using Linux you will spend big time in
> : additional hardware.
>
> Ok I'll byte.
>
> First off, I think you were right a few years ago, and now there multichip
> boards that support linux and are beginning to get fairly cheap.
>
> The big question is how long before we get the Linux SOC? 3/5/8 years?
> Full linux not uClinux.
>
>
I believe that the Sharp LH795xx series should run full Linux.  It uses an 
ARM720 core with full MMU capability, on board ethernet, USB Master, SDRAM 
controller, Color LCD controller, touchscreen controller and more.  Sharp 
has a Linux 2.6.12 port on their web site.

Scott 

J Jackson wrote:
> In comp.sys.arm An Schwob in the USA <schwobus@aol.com> wrote:
> : None of them.  Use a PC if you want to run any Linux, that's a system
> : ready to face all the memory requirements of Linux.  These devices are
> : stand alone microcontrollers with the memory on chip.  The memory
> : requirements of Linux are downright a joke for embedded memory.
> : Linux = external memory = more complex board = higher price.
> : The money you think you save by using Linux you will spend big time in
> : additional hardware.
>
> Ok I'll byte.
>
> First off, I think you were right a few years ago, and now there multichip
> boards that support linux and are beginning to get fairly cheap.
>
> The big question is how long before we get the Linux SOC? 3/5/8 years?
> Full linux not uClinux.

;-)  I think you will be right in a few years from now  ;-)

There are ARM embedded devices with on-chip memory starting below $3
today.  Most likely next year we will see the first 32-bit micros with
embedded flash popping up below $2.  My point is that the boards from
Olimex are made for this kind of devices, all memory on chip.  It is
possible today to implement 2 MBytes of Flash and 8 MBytes of SRAM onto
a chip in a 90 nm technology, the problem being that 90 nm Flash is not
available for embedded Flash devices yet. Such a chip would still be
around or bigger than 100 mm2.  As flash always lags behind in the
latest processes, to have a device as described above with reasonable
die size (less than 50 mm2) it needs to be in 65 nm or smaller and with
embedded Flash.  My guess would be we are talking 5 years from now.
Unfortunately OSs have the tendency to grow as well. Don't know whether
Linux will fit in such a tight environment with 8 MB SRAM in 5 years?
Getting to the point, if you don't need many of the drivers / device
stacks for Linux, you REALLY should consider other Embedded operating
systems ranging from uCOS-II, Nucleus, CMX, Thread-X to bigger ones
like PSOS, VX-Works...
The initial investment in the OS will see a return of invest fast in
smaller memory, faster system, REAL support by the OS vendor...

btw. I am not with a OS company but a big friend of compact software
and small microcontrollers

An Schwob

J Jackson:
ARM720 have MMU so there will be no problem to run Linux (not uClinux),
same is for all ARM9 boards, the only issue is to have at least 4MB of
RAM to may do some useful work on it like running TCP-IP stack etc.
There are plenty of such boards in $300 range  which have power
consumption of few Watts ( I still remember my old 486DX25Mhz PC with
the big fan inside taking many Ampers to feed the processor core) now
for instance Cirrus EP930x runs at 200Mhz and takes only 2W, so to use
PC for running linux may be OK for desktop systems, but in many other
applications and in terms of reliability ARM Linux SBC is better.

Joep:
ADuC702x are coming ;) we have limited stock now but Analog will have
them in regular production very soon.

Tsvetan

An Schwob in the USA wrote:
> J Jackson wrote:
> 
>>In comp.sys.arm An Schwob in the USA <schwobus@aol.com> wrote:
>>: None of them.  Use a PC if you want to run any Linux, that's a system
>>: ready to face all the memory requirements of Linux.  These devices are
>>: stand alone microcontrollers with the memory on chip.  The memory
>>: requirements of Linux are downright a joke for embedded memory.
>>: Linux = external memory = more complex board = higher price.
>>: The money you think you save by using Linux you will spend big time in
>>: additional hardware.
>>
>>Ok I'll byte.
>>
>>First off, I think you were right a few years ago, and now there multichip
>>boards that support linux and are beginning to get fairly cheap.
>>
>>The big question is how long before we get the Linux SOC? 3/5/8 years?
>>Full linux not uClinux.
> 
> 
> ;-)  I think you will be right in a few years from now  ;-)
> 
> There are ARM embedded devices with on-chip memory starting below $3
> today.  Most likely next year we will see the first 32-bit micros with
> embedded flash popping up below $2.  My point is that the boards from
> Olimex are made for this kind of devices, all memory on chip.  It is
> possible today to implement 2 MBytes of Flash and 8 MBytes of SRAM onto
> a chip in a 90 nm technology, the problem being that 90 nm Flash is not
> available for embedded Flash devices yet. Such a chip would still be
> around or bigger than 100 mm2.  As flash always lags behind in the
> latest processes, to have a device as described above with reasonable
> die size (less than 50 mm2) it needs to be in 65 nm or smaller and with
> embedded Flash.  My guess would be we are talking 5 years from now.
<snip>

You miss an important pathway which is Stacked Die.
That will reduce the timeframe significantly, - companies are
already doing stacked die, for the large volume markets, and I
believe Intel has Stacked die XScale now, and ST have a Stacked Die
ARM with 16Mbit DRAM, IIRC ?

A purist might argue that stacked-die is not single chip,
but from a PCB design viewpoint, it is.

-jg

In article <1126716559.470008.234720@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, 
schwobus@aol.com says...
> 
> There are ARM embedded devices with on-chip memory starting below $3
> today.  

Which ARM devices do you see for below $3?  The lowest I find is about 
$4-5.

Thanks.
H.

"J Jackson" <jj@comp.leeds.ac.uk> skrev i meddelandet 
news:dg9c6p$geq$1@iss-nntp.leeds.ac.uk...
> In comp.sys.arm An Schwob in the USA <schwobus@aol.com> wrote:
> : None of them.  Use a PC if you want to run any Linux, that's a system
> : ready to face all the memory requirements of Linux.  These devices are
> : stand alone microcontrollers with the memory on chip.  The memory
> : requirements of Linux are downright a joke for embedded memory.
> : Linux = external memory = more complex board = higher price.
> : The money you think you save by using Linux you will spend big time in
> : additional hardware.
>
> Ok I'll byte.
>
> First off, I think you were right a few years ago, and now there multichip
> boards that support linux and are beginning to get fairly cheap.
>
> The big question is how long before we get the Linux SOC? 3/5/8 years?
> Full linux not uClinux.
>
>

Whats wrong with the current crop of ARM9s & PowerPCs?
Ethernet, USB Host, USB Client, LCD controllers, Serial ports, Audio ports 
etc.

-- 
A. P. Richelieu

I was referring to the price announcements of Atmel and Philips, the
SAM7S32 in the range of $3 for 10k pieces, the much more powerful
LPC2131 in the range of $3.50, providing double the I/O capability of
the SAM7 and being upgradeable in the same package up to 512k Flash
The "real" SAM7S family starts with the SAM7S64

>From ARM there are rumors that much smaller devices will hit the market
next year with their new core, although I don't know how much the core
contributes to the cost any more.

An Schwob

H wrote:
> In article <1126716559.470008.234720@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> schwobus@aol.com says...
> >
> > There are ARM embedded devices with on-chip memory starting below $3
> > today.
>
> Which ARM devices do you see for below $3?  The lowest I find is about
> $4-5.
> 
> Thanks.
> H.

On 14 Sep 2005 09:49:19 -0700, "An Schwob in the USA"
<schwobus@aol.com> wrote:

>
>  My guess would be we are talking 5 years from now.
>Unfortunately OSs have the tendency to grow as well. Don't know whether
>Linux will fit in such a tight environment with 8 MB SRAM in 5 years?
>Getting to the point, if you don't need many of the drivers / device
>stacks for Linux, you REALLY should consider other Embedded operating
>systems ranging from 

The OS of the company I work for...

>uCOS-II, Nucleus, CMX, Thread-X to bigger ones
>like PSOS, VX-Works...
>The initial investment in the OS will see a return of invest fast in
>smaller memory, faster system, REAL support by the OS vendor...

Also, I found that Linux is often used because 
a) Management heard it is free (which it is in terms of buying it, but
   surely they do not take into account the hours the developer doing

   linux debugging instead of programming the actual application).
b) Developer like to think it is something which looks good on their

   vita.

Also, one argument often heard is the "open source": But how many
people have the time and the knowledge to dig into a monster source
like linux ?

Sorry if this sounds a bit frustrated :(

>
>btw. I am not with a OS company but a big friend of compact software
>and small microcontrollers

I do work for an OS company and was always a friend of compact
software, but I fear these days are over. First on desktop now slowly
but steady in the embedded.

-- 
42Bastian
Do not email to bastian42@yahoo.com, it's a spam-only account :-)
Use <same-name>@monlynx.de instead !

"J Jackson" <jj@comp.leeds.ac.uk> wrote in message 
news:dg9c6p$geq$1@iss-nntp.leeds.ac.uk...
> In comp.sys.arm An Schwob in the USA <schwobus@aol.com> wrote:
> : None of them.  Use a PC if you want to run any Linux, that's a system
> : ready to face all the memory requirements of Linux.  These devices are
> : stand alone microcontrollers with the memory on chip.  The memory
> : requirements of Linux are downright a joke for embedded memory.
> : Linux = external memory = more complex board = higher price.
> : The money you think you save by using Linux you will spend big time in
> : additional hardware.
>
> Ok I'll byte.
>
> First off, I think you were right a few years ago, and now there multichip
> boards that support linux and are beginning to get fairly cheap.
>
> The big question is how long before we get the Linux SOC? 3/5/8 years?
> Full linux not uClinux.
>

Been around for a while (forgot to include etrax based board in my other 
post)

Etrax from Axis  http://developer.axis.com
More recent chips can run a default 2.6  linux kernel

 The ETRAX 100LX Multi Chip Module includes the ETRAX 100LX SoC plus 4 MB 
Flash, 16 MB SDRAM, Ethernet Transceiver, etc. This chip is ideal for 
Ethernet-connected Linux systems.
http://developer.axis.com/doc/hardware/mcm/4+16/MCM_datasheet.htm
http://developer.axis.com/products/etrax100lx/index.html

a.. 4 asynchronous serial ports
a.. 2 synchronous serial ports
a.. 2 USB ports Host 1.1
a.. 2 Parallel ports
a.. 4 ATA (IDE) ports
a.. 2 Narrow SCSI ports (or 1 Wide)

http://developer.axis.com/doc/index.html
http://developer.axis.com/products/etrax100lx/18354_etrax_lx.pdf
http://developer.axis.com/doc/hardware/mcm/4+16/MCM_datasheet.htm

http://www.acmesystems.it/   A nice small board

Alex