AVR Compiler Recommendations

Chris Hills wrote:

> >Even if the vendor remains in business, it should provide a 24 x 7
> >service for any copy protection problems due to different time zones
>
> They do. Though I think you mean "normal business hours" for any given

Sure, right (to the "they do" comment). It took us a week of
discussions about versions, serial numbers, activation numbers,
installation codes, verification codes, code codes, (...) to get our
copy of Hitech PIC C reactivated after we moved it from one engineer's
machine to another. Two engineers were idling for a week; that's
$6,800. Where's my check from Hitech?

> time zone. You try getting support for PC's, cars, Tv's bank's, etc etc
> out side local working hours. You are inventing flimsy problems.  That

Banks? Show me a single bank that doesn't have a 24-hour support number
for urgent problems like a stolen ATM card. Similar level of urgency.

A car can be fixed - probably - at any independent service center. Some
of these are open 24/7. When something goes wrong with a proprietary
compiler, you have to take it to the dealership.

> said most compiler vendors have web forums now and usually you can get
> support from other users on the Internet in NG's just like GNU.

So you are now saying that the support for GNU tools is provided in the
same places, at the same quality level or better, as payware tools?
Payware tool vendors are starting to discover that people need the
support that has hitherto only been available for GNU users? Excellent,
I thought you would never come around to our way of thinking.

> I get the impression the open source community here KNOW the answer and
> will use any argument no matter how unlikely to fit their [ religious ]

ROFL. Like I said, things look different when you're sitting on the
right hand of God. I work at a company with a market cap in the
billions of dollars and [though not in my division] numerous important
military projects. These issues are real for us. How big does a company
have to be to fall outside your definition of lunatic fringe hobbyists,
then?

On Thu, 11 May 2006 11:28:42 +0100, Chris Hills <chris@phaedsys.org>
wrote:

>In article <j2q462lmkd0oj55jotbkvrossbf1dv18v4@4ax.com>, Paul Keinanen
><keinanen@sci.fi> writes
>>On 10 May 2006 14:12:17 +0200, David Brown
>><david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:
>>
>>There is a great risk that the compiler vendor goes bankrupt or is
>>bought by a competitor who kills the product line. To avoid such
>>problems, the source code and documentation is sometimes stored by a
>>trusted third party and is available only if the vendor is not able to
>>fulfill their obligations.
>
>This is always possible but you do not need the source code for that.

If you don't have the source codes, how would you fix for instance
incompatibilities with future OS versions.


>>Even if the vendor remains in business, it should provide a 24 x 7
>>service for any copy protection problems due to different time zones
>>and different cultural weekly rest systems (Friday/Saturday/Sunday).
>
>They do. Though I think you mean "normal business hours" for any given
>time zone. You try getting support for PC's, cars, Tv's bank's, etc etc
>out side local working hours. You are inventing flimsy problems.  

I said 24 x 7 since at a large system startup phase people work more
or less around the clock on site.  

>That
>said most compiler vendors have web forums now and usually you can get
>support from other users on the Internet in NG's just like GNU.
>
>If you are talking about a specific implementation of GNU you will find
>that the companies that do them will also only work normal business
>hours. They have lives and families too.

I am only referring to support for problems caused by any copy
protection system. With GNU you do not need support for copy
protection, since copy protection would not exist for GNU software.

>>Even if a replacement dongle is available at a short notice from the
>>vendor, how do you transport it to the other side of the world
>>literally into the jungle ?
>
>Or the Siberian tundra? Its not to difficult. I have done that. A
>parallel port dongle (not IAR) for an outfit who were doing some
>installation work and trials in Siberia. Their ONLY link was sat phone
>so they could not get any Internet support. 

How many days does it take to deliver a replacement dongle etc. to
such places.

>> While some international carrier may be
>>able to deliver it to the correct country, you may have to hire a
>>helicopter to deliver it to the site in the jungle or the Siberian
>>taiga. 
>
>You pre plan.

Yes, you have to preplan by buying extra dongles as spares just in
case some might break in the middle of nowhere. 

Alternatively you refuse to use products for which you can not get a
corporate license without the copy protection.
 
>I get the impression the open source community here KNOW the answer and
>will use any argument no matter how unlikely to fit their [ religious ]
>convictions about open source. It is the only thing that accounts for
>the sort of arguments you see here. 

I have nothing against good commercial software and I do not have any
special affection for open source, but if you can not get a commercial
software without all the hassle associated with copy protection (e.g.
as a corporate license without the hassle), I would be actively
searching for other products.

Paul

"Paul Keinanen" <keinanen@sci.fi> wrote in message
news:rp966257ev6u4scbli1hc1jkm32e74ftaq@4ax.com...
> If you don't have the source codes, how would you fix for instance
> incompatibilities with future OS versions.

By saving the OS version as well.

I keep an old laptop alive with Windows 95, just to be able to run my Pascal
MT+ compiler on a CP/M emulator (ZRUN) which needs an OS that supports FCB's
instead of file handles.

Meindert

In article <rp966257ev6u4scbli1hc1jkm32e74ftaq@4ax.com>, Paul Keinanen
<keinanen@sci.fi> writes
>On Thu, 11 May 2006 11:28:42 +0100, Chris Hills <chris@phaedsys.org>
>wrote:
>>They do. Though I think you mean "normal business hours" for any given
>>time zone. You try getting support for PC's, cars, Tv's bank's, etc etc
>>out side local working hours. You are inventing flimsy problems.  
>
>I said 24 x 7 since at a large system startup phase people work more
>or less around the clock on site.  

Outside India it is not common. 


>>Or the Siberian tundra? Its not to difficult. I have done that. A
>>parallel port dongle (not IAR) for an outfit who were doing some
>>installation work and trials in Siberia. Their ONLY link was sat phone
>>so they could not get any Internet support. 
>
>How many days does it take to deliver a replacement dongle etc. to
>such places.

Less than the 30/45 days the full eval versions run when you reinstall
from CD. They don't need a dongle or node lock

>>> While some international carrier may be
>>>able to deliver it to the correct country, you may have to hire a
>>>helicopter to deliver it to the site in the jungle or the Siberian
>>>taiga. 
>>
>>You pre plan.
>
>Yes, you have to preplan by buying extra dongles as spares just in
>case some might break in the middle of nowhere. 

That can happen but from personal experience other things are more of a
problem, 


>Alternatively you refuse to use products for which you can not get a
>corporate license without the copy protection.

So that lets in all the main commercial compilers then.


-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Chris Hills wrote:
> In article <j2q462lmkd0oj55jotbkvrossbf1dv18v4@4ax.com>, Paul Keinanen
> <keinanen@sci.fi> writes

>> For these reasons, I try to avoid any products with dongles or other
>> awkward copy protection systems.
> 
> The same applies to vehicle parts, computers, etc when working out in
> the middle of nowhere.
> 

Vehicle parts, computers, etc., are all commodity items that can be 
easily purchased in most modern towns.  Replacement dongles for 
specialist software is a completely different matter.

> BTW your GNU theory falls down as well. How do you reinstall the GNu
> compiler if the hard disk crashes? I can's see HP or Dell doing a 4 hour
> turnaround to the jungle. 

You can borrow or buy another computer - perhaps not in the middle of a 
jungle, but not far off it.  With a tools like winavr (or 
customer-friendly commercial tools like ImageCraft), you are a download 
away from being up and running again.

> 
> I get the impression the open source community here KNOW the answer and
> will use any argument no matter how unlikely to fit their [ religious ]
> convictions about open source. It is the only thing that accounts for
> the sort of arguments you see here. 
> 

You are the only one who has this impression, and I don't know where you 
get it.  Most people here believe in choosing the right tool for the 
right job, according to how it best fits their requirement.  Sometimes 
open source software fits it best, sometimes not - it depends on your 
requirements and priorities.  If your place high priority on the 
availability of tools in the future, their portability to current and 
future machines, your guaranteed ability to fix or modify the tools 
(obviously dependant on your time and money), and your ability to run 
them despite problems in licensing hardware or software, then you are 
strongly pushed towards open source solutions.  If that's not your 
highest priority, you can consider other options.  The only person in 
this discussion who is arguing on the basis of irrational (religious?) 
prejudices is the one whose blind faith in the hearts of gold selling 
high-end commercial tools leads him to reject open source solutions 
outright.

In article <1266cel3464nkc1@corp.supernews.com>, Meindert Sprang
<ms@NOJUNKcustomORSPAMware.nl> writes
>"Paul Keinanen" <keinanen@sci.fi> wrote in message
>news:rp966257ev6u4scbli1hc1jkm32e74ftaq@4ax.com...
>> If you don't have the source codes, how would you fix for instance
>> incompatibilities with future OS versions.
>
>By saving the OS version as well.
>
>I keep an old laptop alive with Windows 95, just to be able to run my Pascal
>MT+ compiler on a CP/M emulator (ZRUN) which needs an OS that supports FCB's
>instead of file handles.
>
>Meindert
>
>
The other problem is you can NOT recreate the old version of the GNU
compiler without the original source AND the original compiler that
compiled it, running on the same OS and hardware..... Having just the
sources is not enough. 

Having the binary is better. But then you can get that for all the
commercial compilers anyway. Besides they usually unprotected the old
versions when the supply them. 

Basically if comes down to religion and how you deal with your tools
suppliers. If you are hostile with them it is not surprising that the
don't fall over themselves to help. 


-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Hi David

Thanks for the email...... is there something you are not telling us on
this NG? :-) 



In message <IZ3P0K$81C834F55868E3D9064237B06D0B8DC8@terra.com.mx>,
david_brown <david_brown@terra.com.mx> writes
>Dear Friend,
>
>I am Mr.David Brown senior manager accounts/audit department, in Standard Trust 
>bank Nigeria Plc. Mr. Mark Cin
>a national of your country, who was a consultant with Shell-development Company 
>in Nigeria and a personal
>friend Died and left behind his deposit in this bank (STANDARD TRUST BANK 
>NIGERIA PLC) valued $18,723,822.90.
>
>My relationship with Mr. Mark started in 1992 when I was a supervisor in first 
>bank marina branch.We met in my
>social club annual end of the year party and I introduced him to my bank where 
>he opened this account some few
>weeks later making me the account officer to the account and he operated this 
>account until his death.
>
>On the 21st of April 2001, Mr. Mark, his wife and their three children were 
>involved in a car accident along
>sagamu express road. All occupants of the vehicle unfortunately lost their 
>lives. Since then I have made
>several enquiries through your Embassy to locate any of Mr. Mark's 
>extendedrelatives this has also proved
>unsuccessful. After these several unsuccessful attempts, to locate any member of 
>his family hence I  contacted you.
>
>I am contacting you to assist in repatriating the money left behind by Mr. Mark 
>before they get confiscated
>since the bank has decleared the account unserviceable.I have been unsuccessful 
>in locating the relatives for
>over 3years since I was recalled back to marina branch as a senior manager from 
>a transfer that took me to
>another branch of the bank. I therefore seek your consent to present you as the 
>next of kin of the deceased ,
>so that the proceeds of this account valued at $18,723,822.90 can be paid to you 
>and then you and me can share
>the money. 60% to me and 40% to you. I have access to necessary legal documents 
>that can be used to back up any
>claim we may make. All I require is your honest cooperation to enable us see 
>this deal through.
>
>I guarantee that this will be executed under a legitimate arrangement that will 
>protect you from any breach of
>the law. Please get in touch with me through my email or phone and send to me 
>your full name telephone and fax
>numbers to enable us discuss further about this transaction.For further response 
>send to my my private
>email:browndavid_2@yahoo.com
>
>Best regards,
>Mr.David Brown.
>


-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

In article <1147347719.375392.85470@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, larwe
<zwsdotcom@gmail.com> writes
>
>Chris Hills wrote:
>
>> >Even if the vendor remains in business, it should provide a 24 x 7
>> >service for any copy protection problems due to different time zones
>>
>> They do. Though I think you mean "normal business hours" for any given
>
>Sure, right (to the "they do" comment). It took us a week of
>discussions about versions, serial numbers, activation numbers,
>installation codes, verification codes, code codes, (...) to get our
>copy of Hitech PIC C reactivated after we moved it from one engineer's
>machine to another. Two engineers were idling for a week; that's
>$6,800. Where's my check from Hitech?

You seem to have a lot trouble with most of your tools suppliers... yet
each of them has many thousands of happy customers. 

>> I get the impression the open source community here KNOW the answer and
>> will use any argument no matter how unlikely to fit their [ religious ]
>
>ROFL. Like I said, things look different when you're sitting on the
>right hand of God. 

Then you need to move back to  the real world.

>I work at a company with a market cap in the
>billions of dollars and [though not in my division] numerous important
>military projects. These issues are real for us. How big does a company
>have to be to fall outside your definition of lunatic fringe hobbyists,
>then?

One person. Perhaps it is just the way you deal with people? 

-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Chris Hills wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the email...... is there something you are not telling
> us on this NG? :-)
> 
> In message <IZ3P0K$81C834F55868E3D9064237B06D0B8DC8@terra.com.mx>,
> david_brown <david_brown@terra.com.mx> writes
>>Dear Friend,
>>
>> I am Mr.David Brown senior manager accounts/audit department, in
>> Standard Trust bank Nigeria Plc. Mr. Mark Cin
... large snip ...

Now that you have demonstrated your savoir faire by quoting the
entirety of this scam spam, and by even responding to it, we can
better evaluate your sophistication.

-- 
 Some informative links:
   news:news.announce.newusers
   http://www.geocities.com/nnqweb/
   http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
   http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html
   http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

larwe wrote:
> Chris Hills wrote:
> 
... snip ...
> 
>> I get the impression the open source community here KNOW the
>> answer and will use any argument no matter how unlikely to fit
>> their [ religious ]
> 
> ROFL. Like I said, things look different when you're sitting on
> the right hand of God. I work at a company with a market cap in
> the billions of dollars and [though not in my division] numerous
> important military projects. These issues are real for us. How
> big does a company have to be to fall outside your definition of
> lunatic fringe hobbyists, then?

He has some peculiar ideas.  For example, he responds to Nigerian
scam spam, and quotes it in its entirety, on a newsgroup.  This is
evidence of something or other.

-- 
 Some informative links:
   news:news.announce.newusers
   http://www.geocities.com/nnqweb/
   http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
   http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html
   http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html