Microblaze, EDK, Spartan 3 and Webpack

I'm drowning in Xilinx documentation and downloads.

I have the ML403, which includes a Base-X version of ISE, and uBlaze
IP. Is that core only licensed for use in Virtex-4 designs, or is it
permissible to use it in a Spartan 3 also?

The reason I ask this is because I just found out how much the Virtex 4
FX chip costs by itself, and I'm thinking I probably ought to follow
the advice I got here, and retarget my book at a Spartan 3 board :)
NOBODY will be building a casual prototype around the Virtex 4.

Does all the free downloadable stuff from Xilinx, including ISE
Webpack, include uBlaze?

If the answer to any of this is no, I will have to start looking at
public domain/GPL'd cores, which is a little irksome because it
probably also means I will need to learn Verilog.

larwe wrote:
> I'm drowning in Xilinx documentation and downloads.
> 
> I have the ML403, which includes a Base-X version of ISE, and uBlaze
> IP. Is that core only licensed for use in Virtex-4 designs, or is it
> permissible to use it in a Spartan 3 also?
> 
> The reason I ask this is because I just found out how much the Virtex 4
> FX chip costs by itself, and I'm thinking I probably ought to follow
> the advice I got here, and retarget my book at a Spartan 3 board :)
> NOBODY will be building a casual prototype around the Virtex 4.
> 
> Does all the free downloadable stuff from Xilinx, including ISE
> Webpack, include uBlaze?
> 
> If the answer to any of this is no, I will have to start looking at
> public domain/GPL'd cores, which is a little irksome because it
> probably also means I will need to learn Verilog.

You should ask this again in comp.arch.fpga

MicroBlaze is normally a charge-for core; the PicoBlaze is the only
one that is free (Lattice have one called mico8).
There are some recent threads on comp.arch.fpga
about GPL MicroBlaze 'clones'
-jg

Jim Granville wrote:

> You should ask this again in comp.arch.fpga

Okay, I will - thanks.

> MicroBlaze is normally a charge-for core; the PicoBlaze is the only

Note that this would not be for a shipped application. I merely want
readers to be able to follow along with the examples.

larwe wrote:
> Jim Granville wrote:
> 
> 
>>You should ask this again in comp.arch.fpga
> 
> 
> Okay, I will - thanks.
> 
> 
>>MicroBlaze is normally a charge-for core; the PicoBlaze is the only
> 
> 
> Note that this would not be for a shipped application. I merely want
> readers to be able to follow along with the examples.

One of the MicroBlaze clone's is called OpenFire.

In smaller cores you have

Mico8 from lattice, which is open sourced (now supported
in AS assembler, Lattice's ASM is a tad too vanilla.. )

PicoBlaze from Xilinx  (not open source ?, but free)

PacoBlaze, which is an interesting effort to nudge the PicoBlaze up
a little.

There was talk of a C compiler for Pico/PacoBlaze,
and I see Antti posted a basic compiler for PicoBlaze here
http://gforge.openchip.org/projects/picoblazic

-jg

"larwe" <zwsdotcom@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag 
news:1154911717.676390.293010@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> I'm drowning in Xilinx documentation and downloads.
>
> I have the ML403, which includes a Base-X version of ISE, and uBlaze
> IP. Is that core only licensed for use in Virtex-4 designs, or is it
> permissible to use it in a Spartan 3 also?
>
> The reason I ask this is because I just found out how much the Virtex 4
> FX chip costs by itself, and I'm thinking I probably ought to follow
> the advice I got here, and retarget my book at a Spartan 3 board :)
> NOBODY will be building a casual prototype around the Virtex 4.
>
> Does all the free downloadable stuff from Xilinx, including ISE
> Webpack, include uBlaze?
>
> If the answer to any of this is no, I will have to start looking at
> public domain/GPL'd cores, which is a little irksome because it
> probably also means I will need to learn Verilog.
>

MicroBlaze is free. But in order to use it you need to pocess EDK license
(what includes MB use license). There are other ip-cores in EDK that are
not free like ethernet and i2c.

If you have EDK (you cant have MicroBlaze and not have EDK actually) then
yes you can target the MicroBlaze to any FPGA your EDK version does support.
For you case everything below Virtex-5 (Virtex 5 support comes in EDK 8.2)

I surprised about you targetting ML403, Virtex also (as of price) i see 
others have
commented on that as well.

the easiest V4FX prototyping is with hydraXC-50 (see www.hydraxc.com) but
those DIP40 like modules also cost 399 EUR so not so 'proto' price tag for
casual hobby use.

The free WebPack includes no SoC tools, but you can use it for any softcore
processors that come with source code. Now as of you needing in verilog -
no, the thing is that pretty much all decent FPGA tools can handle verilog
and VHDL in any mixture. So in order to use some open-source ip-core
that comes in verilog you do not need to know or learn verilog. You just
just add the verilog to the project, you ISE to create VHDL instantiotion
template from it, and then you use everything in VHDL above that verilog IP.

You need to deal with verilog only if some features that are inside the 
verilog IP
need to be changed. As of the free MicroBlaze clones you should get alone
without the need of that, eg working entirely in VHDL.

Antti
FPGA Computing modules in DIP40 (support site)
http://hydraxc.xilant.com

On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 07:53:49 +0200, "Antti Lukats" <antti@openchip.org> wrote:

>"larwe" <zwsdotcom@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag 
>news:1154911717.676390.293010@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>> I'm drowning in Xilinx documentation and downloads.
>>
>> I have the ML403, which includes a Base-X version of ISE, and uBlaze
>> IP. Is that core only licensed for use in Virtex-4 designs, or is it
>> permissible to use it in a Spartan 3 also?
>>
>> The reason I ask this is because I just found out how much the Virtex 4
>> FX chip costs by itself, and I'm thinking I probably ought to follow
>> the advice I got here, and retarget my book at a Spartan 3 board :)
>> NOBODY will be building a casual prototype around the Virtex 4.
>>
>> Does all the free downloadable stuff from Xilinx, including ISE
>> Webpack, include uBlaze?
>>
>> If the answer to any of this is no, I will have to start looking at
>> public domain/GPL'd cores, which is a little irksome because it
>> probably also means I will need to learn Verilog.
>>
>
>MicroBlaze is free. But in order to use it you need to pocess EDK license
>(what includes MB use license). 

The EDK License is not free, therefore MB is not free. There are no ongoing per-use fees however. 

Mike Harrison schrieb:

> On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 07:53:49 +0200, "Antti Lukats" <antti@openchip.org> wrote:
>
> >"larwe" <zwsdotcom@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> >news:1154911717.676390.293010@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> >> I'm drowning in Xilinx documentation and downloads.
> >>
> >> I have the ML403, which includes a Base-X version of ISE, and uBlaze
> >> IP. Is that core only licensed for use in Virtex-4 designs, or is it
> >> permissible to use it in a Spartan 3 also?
> >>
> >> The reason I ask this is because I just found out how much the Virtex 4
> >> FX chip costs by itself, and I'm thinking I probably ought to follow
> >> the advice I got here, and retarget my book at a Spartan 3 board :)
> >> NOBODY will be building a casual prototype around the Virtex 4.
> >>
> >> Does all the free downloadable stuff from Xilinx, including ISE
> >> Webpack, include uBlaze?
> >>
> >> If the answer to any of this is no, I will have to start looking at
> >> public domain/GPL'd cores, which is a little irksome because it
> >> probably also means I will need to learn Verilog.
> >>
> >
> >MicroBlaze is free. But in order to use it you need to pocess EDK license
> >(what includes MB use license).
>
> The EDK License is not free, therefore MB is not free. There are no ongoing per-use fees however.

well, yes no.
you cant buy MB, you can buy EDK. So if you buy EDK you get the
software (SoC environment)
and you pay for that. You do not pay for MB separatly, it is included
"free" for the licensed owner of the EDK environment.

You may purchase the EDK say to develop PPC applications. But you would
also get MB at no extra charge. So withing EDK MB is considered "free".
OPB_I2C and several others IPs that are included in EDK as eval IPs on
the other hand are not free (require extra licensing fee).

So the use of MB is "free" for the owners of EDK (What itself is not
free). MB source code was also available for 20K USD (doesnt seem to be
offered anymore). So MB (source) has never been free. But the use of
netlist version withing EDK is free (there is no extra for the use of
MB if you have EDK).

Well I agree, if something (like MB) can not be purchased (eg there is
no price for it), then you can not say it costs so much. If it only
available (for free) if you own something else that you must purchase,
then the question is what is free and what have you paid for.

The only thing that can be purchesed from Xilinx is EDK yearly
subscription (that is 1 year time-limited license). This costs 495$.
And it does include MB use license as "FREE no extra pay".

Antti

Antti wrote:
<snip> So the use of MB is "free" for the owners of EDK (What itself is not
> free). MB source code was also available for 20K USD (doesnt seem to be
> offered anymore). So MB (source) has never been free. But the use of
> netlist version withing EDK is free (there is no extra for the use of
> MB if you have EDK).
> 
> Well I agree, if something (like MB) can not be purchased (eg there is
> no price for it), then you can not say it costs so much. If it only
> available (for free) if you own something else that you must purchase,
> then the question is what is free and what have you paid for.
> 
> The only thing that can be purchesed from Xilinx is EDK yearly
> subscription (that is 1 year time-limited license). This costs 495$.
> And it does include MB use license as "FREE no extra pay".

Hi Antti,
Another test of 'free' is in the license terms.

I don't think Xilinx allows, (for example) MB to be used on Altera or 
Lattice Silicon, or in an ASIC ? (without fee$) .

Part of it's reason for being, is to leverage customers into Xilinx 
FPGAs ( as is the Altera NIOS )

Lattice have made their smaller/simpler Mico8 Open Source.

-jg

larwe wrote:
> I'm drowning in Xilinx documentation and downloads.
>
> I have the ML403, which includes a Base-X version of ISE, and uBlaze
> IP. Is that core only licensed for use in Virtex-4 designs, or is it
> permissible to use it in a Spartan 3 also?
>
> The reason I ask this is because I just found out how much the Virtex 4
> FX chip costs by itself, and I'm thinking I probably ought to follow
> the advice I got here, and retarget my book at a Spartan 3 board :)
> NOBODY will be building a casual prototype around the Virtex 4.
>
> Does all the free downloadable stuff from Xilinx, including ISE
> Webpack, include uBlaze?
>


> If the answer to any of this is no, I will have to start looking at
> public domain/GPL'd cores, which is a little irksome because it
> probably also means I will need to learn Verilog.

Quite a lot of the cores available at opencores.org are VHDL - in fact
you can filter by language if you so desire.

Cheers

PeteS

Antti wrote:

> The only thing that can be purchesed from Xilinx is EDK yearly
> subscription (that is 1 year time-limited license). This costs 495$.
> And it does include MB use license as "FREE no extra pay".

Goddamn, I hate Xilinx's software. Nowhere - NOWHERE in the
documentation with the ML403 does it state that the license is limited
to one year.

Is the ISE installation similarly limited?