Ubuntu 6.06 criticisms from a programmer

Hadron Quark wrote:
> CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> writes:
>> Hadron Quark wrote:
>>> CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>
... snip ...
>>
>> Remember I only have this week-end to look for and decide these
>> things, due to the return policy.
> 
> But you concur there is no lack of keyboard alternatives as you
> stated?
>
Yes, thanks to the following link from arachnid:

   http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/tip/2289.html 

... snip ...
>>> Why doesnt it cut it?
>>>
>>> Dual partitions effectively hide the other OS if you dont mount
>>> the windows partition in the fstab. There is zero physical
>>> impediment other than reduced hard disk space.
>>
>> It doesn't cut it because of the delays in interminable
>> booting/rebooting etc.
> 
> There are no delays of note. You can set up grub timeout after 1 second
> and default to your Linux installation.
> 
> If 1 second once a day is important to you then fair enough ...

It's not the delay in starting a boot, but in shutting down one OS
and actually rebooting the other.  In the long term I envision dial
up Internet access, with the high speed network used purely for
inter-machine access.

-- 
Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
   Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
   <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>

CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> writes:

> Hadron Quark wrote:
>> CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> Hadron Quark wrote:
>>>> CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>>
> ... snip ...
>>>
>>> Remember I only have this week-end to look for and decide these
>>> things, due to the return policy.
>> 
>> But you concur there is no lack of keyboard alternatives as you
>> stated?
>>
> Yes, thanks to the following link from arachnid:
>
>    http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/tip/2289.html 
>
> ... snip ...
>>>> Why doesnt it cut it?
>>>>
>>>> Dual partitions effectively hide the other OS if you dont mount
>>>> the windows partition in the fstab. There is zero physical
>>>> impediment other than reduced hard disk space.
>>>
>>> It doesn't cut it because of the delays in interminable
>>> booting/rebooting etc.
>> 
>> There are no delays of note. You can set up grub timeout after 1 second
>> and default to your Linux installation.
>> 
>> If 1 second once a day is important to you then fair enough ...
>
> It's not the delay in starting a boot, but in shutting down one OS
> and actually rebooting the other.  In the long term I envision dial
> up Internet access, with the high speed network used purely for
> inter-machine access.

With all due respect this is a self imposed delay and has nothing to do
with partitioning. If you don't want the delay - simple don't boot into
windows.

I would always keep the windows for one prime reason - it Linux screws
up for some reason, maybe an update, you have another option for getting
on line and googling a solution. This is invaluable.

One thing I would strongly recommend is for you to read up on putting
your /home on a seperate partition - reinstalls then see your old user
data. Absolutely invaluable.


-- 
/*
 * Oops. The kernel tried to access some bad page. We'll have to
 * terminate things with extreme prejudice.
*/
die_if_kernel("Oops", regs, error_code);
(From linux/arch/i386/mm/fault.c)				

On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 14:50:43 -0400, CBFalconer wrote:

> CBFalconer wrote:
>> 
>> I have just mounted this on an IBM Thinkpad T30.  It is driving me
>> up the wall.  Problems:
>> 
>> 1.  Lack of keyboard alternatives for routine operations.  I can't
>> get to the master menus without using the mouse equivalent.
>> 
>> 2.  Nothing is mounted for program development.  No gcc, no make,
>> etc.  No diff.
>> 
>> 3.  While info is mounted, the proper .inf files are not.  For
>> example, for dd it simply accesses the obsolete man pages.
>> 
>> 4.  On a Thinkpad, at least, it is excessively easy to touch the
>> mouse movement area during typing, and this seems to generate
>> either unwanted mouse movements or unwanted clicks.  There seems to
>> be no way to reduce the sensitivity.  Nothing appeared in the bios
>> configuration area.
>> 
>> 5.  All sorts of things just don't work without a network
>> connection.  When and if I allow such a machine to network, it will
>> be via dial-up.
>> 
>> The Thinkpad is probably going back under the 7 day no questions
>> asked return policy.  It came with absolutely no written manual,
>> and no restoration CDs or OS installation CDs.  It came with
>> Micky$oft XP, which is now exterminated and which never ran,
>> because it took about two hours to install itself, and then it
>> wanted me to accede to the EULA.  No thanks.
> ... snip ...
> 
> The advice I have received so far encourages me to keep this
> machine.  It is not yet resolved.  I have found out how to install
> gcc and friends, and how to locate the keyboard alternatives.  I am
> not worried about how to do bash scripting.  The next crucial
> factors for me are:
> 
> 1.  How to get rid of the infernal touch pad sensitivity problem. 
> A google search was not immediately productive, but at least I am
> convinced it can be done.

Looks like the touchpad is something called a "UltraNav" and a websearch
turns up several links that say that's a Synaptics. So assuming IBM didn't
do any weird customizations, here are some links that may help you:

   https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SynapticsTouchpad
  
   http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-27650.html
  
   http://www.ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-184167.html


The best formula I've found for google searches is to type in "Ubuntu",
"Dapper", and then some keywords for whatever I want to do. So to get the
above links I typed in "Ubuntu Dapper dial-up". If you don't get results,
omit Dapper and you may get instructions for an earlier version of Ubuntu.
That'll usually work. 

For the next version of Ubuntu you'll want to use "Edgy" instead of
"Dapper".

> 2.  How to set up for dial up network access.  Here I haven't the
> foggiest.

Here's a link worth saving:

  http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Dapper

It's a long list of "How to install...." links.
 
> I took a quick look at ratpoison, and it seems to overdo it from my
> viewpoint.

They don't call it "ratpoison" for nothing! :o)
 
> Thanks to Micheal Heiming, arachnid, Hadron Quark.  An important
> item was:
> 
>    "sudo apt-get install build-essential"
> 
> which I am recording here so I have someplace to find the
> fundamental command in future. :-)

With Linux you should always keep notes on every change you make. It's
necessary sometimes to undo something, and sometimes to repeat it again on
a later install. Nothing is more aggravating than wanting to do something
that was successful before but not being able to remember how you did it,
and then having to spend the rest of the day figuring it out all
over again.

I always keep a file called "system.txt" in my home directory where I
record my system changes and various notes. I don't try to make it pretty
as that would deter noting every little thing down. The closest I come to
organization is a line of dashes between each note, then a single line
describing what the note is about. 

Many people prefer to keep a physical notebook instead, but personally I
like being able to copy-and-paste URLs, short scripts and config files,
and instructions off of web-pages.

CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> writes:

*snip*

Dont forget the resources at : 

http://www.linux-on-laptops.com/ibm.html

And apologies if this is the second time I have posted this link - nntp
server issues.

Interestingly enough I ordered a Thinkpad X30 on friday and hope to get
it tomorrow :) Thinkpads are great pieces of HW. And at the price for
yesterdays bosses throwaways they are wonderfully cheap bits of HW for
running a Linux distro.

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 22:29:59 -0400, CBFalconer wrote:

> I have just mounted this on an IBM Thinkpad T30.  It is driving me
> up the wall.  Problems:
> 
> 1.  Lack of keyboard alternatives for routine operations.  I can't
> get to the master menus without using the mouse equivalent.
> 
> 2.  Nothing is mounted for program development.  No gcc, no make,
> etc.  No diff.

I'm not sure how you got there, but I certainly have gcc and make on my
system. I generally find mgdiff preferable to diff - it's basically a
gui-diff.

> 
> 3.  While info is mounted, the proper .inf files are not.  For
> example, for dd it simply accesses the obsolete man pages.
> 
> 4.  On a Thinkpad, at least, it is excessively easy to touch the
> mouse movement area during typing, and this seems to generate
> either unwanted mouse movements or unwanted clicks.  There seems to
> be no way to reduce the sensitivity.  Nothing appeared in the bios
> configuration area.

I find the gd pad is always in the way. My advice - get a cheap mini-mouse
and turn the damned pad off.

> 
> 5.  All sorts of things just don't work without a network
> connection.  When and if I allow such a machine to network, it will
> be via dial-up.

To each his/her own. I run mine with a wireless connection. You will
probably need some network access to install everything you would want.

> 
> The Thinkpad is probably going back under the 7 day no questions
> asked return policy.  It came with absolutely no written manual,
> and no restoration CDs or OS installation CDs.  It came with
> Micky$oft XP, which is now exterminated and which never ran,
> because it took about two hours to install itself, and then it
> wanted me to accede to the EULA.  No thanks.
> 
> There is no doubt that Linux is a superior OS to any version of
> Windoze.  However, it must also be admitted that the GUI interface
> on Windoze is generally better than the equivalent under Gnome.  I
> can almost always operate Windoze from the keyboard.  This does not
> apply to this version of Ubuntu.  I will concede that my versions
> of Windoze use 4dos as their shell, which is much superior to
> COMMAND or CMD.  My rodents sleep peacefully in a corner 99% of the
> time.

Did scientific software support and development, and never did get much
used to keyboard shortcuts. But you should be able to set them. How about
trying KDE - Kubuntu is what I usually run.

> 
> Both systems are excessively lacking in showing immediate response
> to user input.  After a click, something on the display should
> always change immediately to show reception.

Agreed - and hardly anyone does that.

> 
> While there may be suitable answers to my complaints, the 7 day
> return period will prevent my investigating them.

What 7 day return period? Do you mean that's all you can stand? If so, how
did you ever get used to the keyboard shortcuts that you use?

> 
> As a result I am still in the market for a reasonably priced
> laptop, which MUST include real serial and parallel ports, CD/DVD
> reader, CD writer, and should include ECC memory capabilty.  I also
> suspect that Ubuntu is not going to be the right distribution for
> me.  I don't want to suffer long downloading sessions tieing up my
> phone line.  All this stuff should be on the CD(s).  Maybe it is
> time to see what cheapbytes has available.

One of the selling points of ubuntu is that it only requires one CD. For
folks with network connections, this is probably an advantage. There are
certainly other distros that come on DVDs - SUSE, Debian, . . .

> 
> Some time ago I mounted Mandrake 8.0 locally, and it seemed quite
> satisfactory.  The major problem is that dual booting just doesn't
> cut it.  I need a separate machine for the Linux installation.

Hadron Quark wrote:
> CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> *snip*
> 
> Dont forget the resources at :
> 
> http://www.linux-on-laptops.com/ibm.html
> 
> And apologies if this is the second time I have posted this link -
> nntp server issues.
> 
> Interestingly enough I ordered a Thinkpad X30 on friday and hope
> to get it tomorrow :) Thinkpads are great pieces of HW. And at the
> price for yesterdays bosses throwaways they are wonderfully cheap
> bits of HW for running a Linux distro.

Thanks for that link = will check it next time on line.  I am
starting to lean towards keeping this machine (a T30).  My two
major problems remain:

1.  Suppressing the touchpad sensitivity.
2.  (later) getting the modem internet link alive.

-- 
Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
   Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
   <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>

CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> writes:

> Hadron Quark wrote:
>> CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> writes:
>> 
>> *snip*
>> 
>> Dont forget the resources at :
>> 
>> http://www.linux-on-laptops.com/ibm.html
>> 
>> And apologies if this is the second time I have posted this link -
>> nntp server issues.
>> 
>> Interestingly enough I ordered a Thinkpad X30 on friday and hope
>> to get it tomorrow :) Thinkpads are great pieces of HW. And at the
>> price for yesterdays bosses throwaways they are wonderfully cheap
>> bits of HW for running a Linux distro.
>
> Thanks for that link = will check it next time on line.  I am
> starting to lean towards keeping this machine (a T30).  My two
> major problems remain:
>
> 1.  Suppressing the touchpad sensitivity.
> 2.  (later) getting the modem internet link alive.

As you will discover, few things are immediately straightforward with
Linux. The information will be there somewhere. I suspect there are
loads of modem howto's out there. There is another post in the thread
detailing stuff about the onboard touchpad - otherwise you can be sure
that judicious use of google will sort you out.

Here's a little present - I will need it myself soon.

http://tpctl.sourceforge.net/configure-thinkpad.html

-- 
Beeping is cute, if you are in the office ;)
		-- Alan Cox

CBFalconer wrote:
> I have just mounted this on an IBM Thinkpad T30.  It is driving me
> up the wall.  Problems:
> 
> 1.  Lack of keyboard alternatives for routine operations.  I can't
> get to the master menus without using the mouse equivalent.
> 

Others have pointed out that Gnome has a variety of keyboard shortcuts. 
  It's also possible to modify them to suit yourself.  An alternative 
idea would be to use a different window manager - there is a whole range 
available, including window managers that are designed to be used 
entirely without a mouse.

> 2.  Nothing is mounted for program development.  No gcc, no make,
> etc.  No diff.
> 

These are often not part of the basic installation of desktop linux 
systems, but all (including Ubuntu) have them readily available.

> 3.  While info is mounted, the proper .inf files are not.  For
> example, for dd it simply accesses the obsolete man pages.
> 

Personally, I've never liked info - most programs have documentation in 
html format.  You might have to download it from their website (or use 
it live on the site).

> 4.  On a Thinkpad, at least, it is excessively easy to touch the
> mouse movement area during typing, and this seems to generate
> either unwanted mouse movements or unwanted clicks.  There seems to
> be no way to reduce the sensitivity.  Nothing appeared in the bios
> configuration area.
> 

Can't help you there, other than to sympathise (I've seen similar 
trouble on a laptop running XP).  The newest version of Ubuntu (in beta 
now) is apparently better with laptops, especially for things like 
suspend and faster boots.

> 5.  All sorts of things just don't work without a network
> connection.  When and if I allow such a machine to network, it will
> be via dial-up.
> 

If you don't have broadband, then obviously that's your choice - 
although I find it hard to see how it's possible to work as a developer 
without access to broadband on a regular basis.

If you are thinking about security, then dial-up links are at risk just 
like broadband.  A windows machine without at least a software firewall 
will be a zombie after about half an hour of dial-up connection, just as 
surely as if you have a broadband connection - the low bandwidth of a 
dial-up link gives you almost no protection.  And since a hardware 
firewall for a broadband link costs something like $30, you are very 
much more secure using broadband and a hardware firewall than using 
dial-up.  While you are using linux, that doesn't much matter.  Keep 
your root password secure, disable services that are not in use (IIRC, 
Ubuntu does not enable any network-available services out of the box), 
and you are several orders of magnitude more secure than Windows + 
software firewall.  There is no reason not to add a hardware firewall as 
well - it makes the network more modular, and makes it easier to add 
other machines to the setup.

> The Thinkpad is probably going back under the 7 day no questions
> asked return policy.  It came with absolutely no written manual,
> and no restoration CDs or OS installation CDs.  It came with
> Micky$oft XP, which is now exterminated and which never ran,
> because it took about two hours to install itself, and then it
> wanted me to accede to the EULA.  No thanks.
> 
> There is no doubt that Linux is a superior OS to any version of
> Windoze.  However, it must also be admitted that the GUI interface
> on Windoze is generally better than the equivalent under Gnome.  I
> can almost always operate Windoze from the keyboard.  This does not
> apply to this version of Ubuntu.  I will concede that my versions
> of Windoze use 4dos as their shell, which is much superior to
> COMMAND or CMD.  My rodents sleep peacefully in a corner 99% of the
> time.
> 

If you like 4dos, you can get a lot done with bash.  Use the virtual 
terminals (Alt+F1-6, or Ctrl+Alt+F1-6 from X, with terminal 7 as X, is 
the usual setup).

> Both systems are excessively lacking in showing immediate response
> to user input.  After a click, something on the display should
> always change immediately to show reception.
> 
> While there may be suitable answers to my complaints, the 7 day
> return period will prevent my investigating them.
> 
> As a result I am still in the market for a reasonably priced
> laptop, which MUST include real serial and parallel ports, CD/DVD
> reader, CD writer, and should include ECC memory capabilty.  I also
> suspect that Ubuntu is not going to be the right distribution for
> me.  I don't want to suffer long downloading sessions tieing up my
> phone line.  All this stuff should be on the CD(s).  Maybe it is
> time to see what cheapbytes has available.
> 

Ubuntu has the best CD availability policy of any distribution - not 
only do they let you download for free (like many other distributions), 
but they will send you a CD for free.  If you get the DVD version, it 
contains a lot of other stuff (like gcc) that is not installed by 
default, but you can install it from the CD/DVD rather than downloading.

One of the best places to get a linux distribution is with a magazine - 
your local newsagent should probably have a selection of linux 
magazines, and at any given time there is likely to be a copy of Ubuntu 
on at least one of them.

That said, linux life is a lot more fun if you have a good broadband 
connection, and can get new or upgraded software as and when you want.


> Some time ago I mounted Mandrake 8.0 locally, and it seemed quite
> satisfactory.  The major problem is that dual booting just doesn't
> cut it.  I need a separate machine for the Linux installation.
> 

On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 14:50:43 -0400, CBFalconer wrote:

> CBFalconer wrote:
>> 
>> I have just mounted this on an IBM Thinkpad T30.  It is driving me
>> up the wall.  Problems:
>> 
>> 1.  Lack of keyboard alternatives for routine operations.  I can't
>> get to the master menus without using the mouse equivalent.
>> 
>> 2.  Nothing is mounted for program development.  No gcc, no make,
>> etc.  No diff.
>> 
>> 3.  While info is mounted, the proper .inf files are not.  For
>> example, for dd it simply accesses the obsolete man pages.
>> 
>> 4.  On a Thinkpad, at least, it is excessively easy to touch the
>> mouse movement area during typing, and this seems to generate
>> either unwanted mouse movements or unwanted clicks.  There seems to
>> be no way to reduce the sensitivity.  Nothing appeared in the bios
>> configuration area.
>> 
>> 5.  All sorts of things just don't work without a network
>> connection.  When and if I allow such a machine to network, it will
>> be via dial-up.
>> 
>> The Thinkpad is probably going back under the 7 day no questions
>> asked return policy.  It came with absolutely no written manual,
>> and no restoration CDs or OS installation CDs.  It came with
>> Micky$oft XP, which is now exterminated and which never ran,
>> because it took about two hours to install itself, and then it
>> wanted me to accede to the EULA.  No thanks.
> ... snip ...
> 
> The advice I have received so far encourages me to keep this
> machine.  It is not yet resolved.  I have found out how to install
> gcc and friends, and how to locate the keyboard alternatives.  I am
> not worried about how to do bash scripting.  The next crucial
> factors for me are:
> 
> 1.  How to get rid of the infernal touch pad sensitivity problem. 
> A google search was not immediately productive, but at least I am
> convinced it can be done.
> 
> 2.  How to set up for dial up network access.  Here I haven't the
> foggiest.

A little altavista search should help you there. There is a modem scan
utility which identifies the modem and tells you what packages you need -
I forget the name because I've not needed it for some time. There is also
an old linmodem howto at www.tldp.org.

> 
> I took a quick look at ratpoison, and it seems to overdo it from my
> viewpoint.
> 
> Thanks to Micheal Heiming, arachnid, Hadron Quark.  An important
> item was:
> 
>    "sudo apt-get install build-essential"
> 
> which I am recording here so I have someplace to find the
> fundamental command in future. :-)
> 
> Incidentally I bought this machine on the used market because it
> has serial and parallel ports.  I expect this to be especially
> valuable in the embedded field.  Blinding speed and gaming displays
> are not in the least necessary.

CBFalconer wrote:
> 3.  While info is mounted, the proper .inf files are not.  For
> example, for dd it simply accesses the obsolete man pages.

Off topic, and perhaps a settled argument already.  But I really
hate the way that distributions have gotten rid of useful man
pages and replaced them with info databases instead.  Worst
are the man pages that say "I refuse to give you information,
so use info instead".  I'd prefer to have both around thank you,
info for full reference, tutorial, etc, and man for quick reference.
I use emacs, so using info is easy, but I've got coworkers who
have to use the broken command line info program who gripe.

Man pages are not obsolete, that just came from the attitude
of "if it's not new, it must not good" people.

--
Darin Johnson