CPLD/FPGA, software and 10 years support

I know others here have to deal with long life time support of designs, and I
have one where I ahev to also supply the tools (free or paid) so that customer
can support in at least 10 years time. The trouble is the design necessitates
a PLD/CPLD/FPGA, so the requirements get quite onerous....

Device
        100 registers min
        50 I/O min
        Surface mount as TQFP/PQFP/PLCC
                (i.e. NOT BGA etc..)
        5V I/O or tolerant I/O
        Fastest clock is currently 25MHz
        Less than 80mA total Icc
                (not all sections operating at same time)
        Flash or EEPROM programming (no RAM devices)

        Spare parts to be held on shelf to cope with 10 years life.

Software tools
        Must support XP minimum
        Schematic capture entry (customer does not want VHDL as main source)
        Any generated files as TEXT, not encoded
        One time license (no recurring license renewal to use)
        NOT tied to a machine or disk drive
        Software must be available as disk or single file installation
                (NO web based installation process)
        Installation file(s) must take less than 400MB
                (as being stored as one of the items on 1GB flash drives
                 for primary source of archive, other copies will exist)
        ISP software must work on any machine regardless of license status.

Now I have looked at various suppliers and so far discounted

        Altera  - Free and paid for software is continual licence renewal
                  Tied to specific machine

        Xilinx  - Even free software is 970MB download and 380MB service pack
                  which is about twice (or more) the size of XP installation
                  and service packs.
                  Have not had chance to examine file structure or machine
                  tie-ins.

        Lattice - not seen suitable device yet
                - not evaluated software.

I know this is a tight set of constraints, but others must get at least
some of these problems. My main issue is that this is very small volume (10
maximum), but has to be covered by these constraints at least, others
may suddenly be 'remembered'.

It seems that even the tools are becoming as throw away as the life cycle
of the parts assuming developers are making this months mobile phone/laptop
and then throw the tools away next month. Seems programmable logic is
becoming something that cannot be used for long life time products. The
drive for replacing with ever bigger devices mean anything designed last year
may end up being redesigned due to EOL on products so quickly.

Looking for pointers and suggestions, even inspiration. 

-- 
Paul Carpenter          | paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk
<http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/>    PC Services
<http://www.gnuh8.org.uk/>              GNU H8 & mailing list info
<http://www.badweb.org.uk/>             For those web sites you hate

Paul Carpenter wrote:
> I know others here have to deal with long life time support of designs, and I
> have one where I ahev to also supply the tools (free or paid) so that customer
> can support in at least 10 years time. The trouble is the design necessitates
> a PLD/CPLD/FPGA, so the requirements get quite onerous....
> 
> Device
>         100 registers min
>         50 I/O min
>         Surface mount as TQFP/PQFP/PLCC
>                 (i.e. NOT BGA etc..)
>         5V I/O or tolerant I/O
>         Fastest clock is currently 25MHz
>         Less than 80mA total Icc
>                 (not all sections operating at same time)
>         Flash or EEPROM programming (no RAM devices)
> 
>         Spare parts to be held on shelf to cope with 10 years life.
> 
> Software tools
>         Must support XP minimum
>         Schematic capture entry (customer does not want VHDL as main source)
>         Any generated files as TEXT, not encoded
>         One time license (no recurring license renewal to use)
>         NOT tied to a machine or disk drive
>         Software must be available as disk or single file installation
>                 (NO web based installation process)
>         Installation file(s) must take less than 400MB
>                 (as being stored as one of the items on 1GB flash drives
>                  for primary source of archive, other copies will exist)
>         ISP software must work on any machine regardless of license status.
> 
> Now I have looked at various suppliers and so far discounted
> 
>         Altera  - Free and paid for software is continual licence renewal
>                   Tied to specific machine
> 
>         Xilinx  - Even free software is 970MB download and 380MB service pack
>                   which is about twice (or more) the size of XP installation
>                   and service packs.
>                   Have not had chance to examine file structure or machine
>                   tie-ins.
> 
>         Lattice - not seen suitable device yet
>                 - not evaluated software.
> 
> I know this is a tight set of constraints, but others must get at least
> some of these problems. My main issue is that this is very small volume (10
> maximum), but has to be covered by these constraints at least, others
> may suddenly be 'remembered'.
> 
> It seems that even the tools are becoming as throw away as the life cycle
> of the parts assuming developers are making this months mobile phone/laptop
> and then throw the tools away next month. Seems programmable logic is
> becoming something that cannot be used for long life time products. The
> drive for replacing with ever bigger devices mean anything designed last year
> may end up being redesigned due to EOL on products so quickly.
> 
> Looking for pointers and suggestions, even inspiration. 
> 

The restriction on size is silly - just get a 2 GB flash drive.

Insisting on using schematic entry as the main design tool ensures that 
you have a limited set of developers, that the design is tied closely to 
a specific part from a specific supplier, and quite possibly that the 
design files are in a binary format instead of readable and easily 
archived text format.  Anyone serious about long-term support and 
development should be insisting on either Verilog or VHDL.

I think, but I'm not sure, that the license renewals for Altera and 
Xilinx are for updates.  As long as you are happy to stick to the 
version you have (and I think that's what you want here), a on-off 
license should be fine.  Both A and X should have floating licenses, 
which are not tied to a specific machine, but I haven't look at that in 
detail.  Your distributors should be able to give you advice here.

If you want to value long term availability of the software above all 
else, you should be looking at open source tools.  That's the only way 
you can be sure of availability of the tools in the future, and 
compatibility with operating systems and pc's in the future.  You should 
therefore be considering Icarus, possibly combined with other tools such 
as MyHDL.  I'm not saying these are necessarily the best solutions for 
your customer, but it is the only way to be sure that you can run 
exactly the same design software in the future on any computer. 
Unfortunately, you can't avoid using at least some software from your 
PLD supplier.

And note that XP will probably not be available in 10 years time, and 
there's a realistic chance that whatever version of windows is available 
then will have trouble with XP-compatible versions of software dealing 
with hardware (i.e., ISP devices) or licensing software.  Even if you 
want to use windows for development now, check for linux versions of the 
tools as a backup plan.

Paul Carpenter wrote:
> I know others here have to deal with long life time support of designs, and I
> have one where I ahev to also supply the tools (free or paid) so that customer
> can support in at least 10 years time. The trouble is the design necessitates
> a PLD/CPLD/FPGA, so the requirements get quite onerous....
>
> Device
>         100 registers min
>         50 I/O min
>         Surface mount as TQFP/PQFP/PLCC
>                 (i.e. NOT BGA etc..)
>         5V I/O or tolerant I/O
>         Fastest clock is currently 25MHz
>         Less than 80mA total Icc
>                 (not all sections operating at same time)
>         Flash or EEPROM programming (no RAM devices)

XC95108 should cover all.

>
>         Spare parts to be held on shelf to cope with 10 years life.

Should not be a problem.

>
> Software tools
>         Must support XP minimum

Win 98/2000

>         Schematic capture entry (customer does not want VHDL as main source)

As stated from another post, wrong decision.

>         Any generated files as TEXT, not encoded
>         One time license (no recurring license renewal to use)

License free webpack.

>         NOT tied to a machine or disk drive
>         Software must be available as disk or single file installation
>                 (NO web based installation process)
>         Installation file(s) must take less than 400MB

200MB single installation file.  Don't use any updates.

>                 (as being stored as one of the items on 1GB flash drives
>                  for primary source of archive, other copies will exist)

600MB installed.  Can strip it down manually by removing all the FPGA
stuffs.  In fact, I am thinking about rebuilding a installation file
after stripping all the junks and outdated xilinx ads.  I don't need to
be remind of the new cool series of cool runners.

> ...
>         Xilinx  - Even free software is 970MB download and 380MB service pack
>                   which is about twice (or more) the size of XP installation
>                   and service packs.
>                   Have not had chance to examine file structure or machine
>                   tie-ins.

Use older version, such as ise4.  It will do everything you need for
CPLD.

On Wednesday, in article
     <4548b353$0$8090$8404b019@news.wineasy.se>
     david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com "David Brown" wrote:

>Paul Carpenter wrote:
>> I know others here have to deal with long life time support of designs, and I
>> have one where I ahev to also supply the tools (free or paid) so that customer
>> can support in at least 10 years time. The trouble is the design necessitates
>> a PLD/CPLD/FPGA, so the requirements get quite onerous....
>> 
>> Device
>>         100 registers min
>>         50 I/O min
>>         Surface mount as TQFP/PQFP/PLCC
>>                 (i.e. NOT BGA etc..)
>>         5V I/O or tolerant I/O
>>         Fastest clock is currently 25MHz
>>         Less than 80mA total Icc
>>                 (not all sections operating at same time)
>>         Flash or EEPROM programming (no RAM devices)
>> 
>>         Spare parts to be held on shelf to cope with 10 years life.
>> 
>> Software tools
>>         Must support XP minimum
>>         Schematic capture entry (customer does not want VHDL as main source)
>>         Any generated files as TEXT, not encoded
>>         One time license (no recurring license renewal to use)
>>         NOT tied to a machine or disk drive
>>         Software must be available as disk or single file installation
>>                 (NO web based installation process)
>>         Installation file(s) must take less than 400MB
>>                 (as being stored as one of the items on 1GB flash drives
>>                  for primary source of archive, other copies will exist)
>>         ISP software must work on any machine regardless of license status.
>> 
>> Now I have looked at various suppliers and so far discounted
>> 
>>         Altera  - Free and paid for software is continual licence renewal
>>                   Tied to specific machine
>> 
>>         Xilinx  - Even free software is 970MB download and 380MB service pack
>>                   which is about twice (or more) the size of XP installation
>>                   and service packs.
>>                   Have not had chance to examine file structure or machine
>>                   tie-ins.
>> 
>>         Lattice - not seen suitable device yet
>>                 - not evaluated software.
>> 
>> I know this is a tight set of constraints, but others must get at least
>> some of these problems. My main issue is that this is very small volume (10
>> maximum), but has to be covered by these constraints at least, others
>> may suddenly be 'remembered'.
>> 
>> It seems that even the tools are becoming as throw away as the life cycle
>> of the parts assuming developers are making this months mobile phone/laptop
>> and then throw the tools away next month. Seems programmable logic is
>> becoming something that cannot be used for long life time products. The
>> drive for replacing with ever bigger devices mean anything designed last year
>> may end up being redesigned due to EOL on products so quickly.
>> 
>> Looking for pointers and suggestions, even inspiration. 
>
>The restriction on size is silly - just get a 2 GB flash drive.

Consider the market the customer is in respecifying that part which has
been agreed upon is going to be a costly exercise adding at least 3 months
to project.

>Insisting on using schematic entry as the main design tool ensures that 
>you have a limited set of developers, that the design is tied closely to 
>a specific part from a specific supplier, and quite possibly that the 
>design files are in a binary format instead of readable and easily

The intention is to have paper AND also have PDF versions of schematics
stored as well. Which means any changes have to be re-entered in a
possibly new package. Text files is meant for generated files from
compilation VHDL, mappings, optimised equations and the like. Schematic
is not expected to be text file.

Actually having schematic entry as main route may well extend the design
cycle anyway.

>archived text format.  Anyone serious about long-term support and 
>development should be insisting on either Verilog or VHDL.

I know that, but customer has been bitten on a couple of jobs with VHDL
and has gone anti-VHDL, when in fact it was the designer at fault.

>I think, but I'm not sure, that the license renewals for Altera and
>Xilinx are for updates.  As long as you are happy to stick to the 
>version you have (and I think that's what you want here), a on-off 
>license should be fine.  Both A and X should have floating licenses, 
>which are not tied to a specific machine, but I haven't look at that in 
>detail.  Your distributors should be able to give you advice here.

The Altera licenses that are supposedly floating are for multiple seat
licenses when I last looked.

>If you want to value long term availability of the software above all 
>else, you should be looking at open source tools.  That's the only way 
>you can be sure of availability of the tools in the future, and 
>compatibility with operating systems and pc's in the future.  You should 
>therefore be considering Icarus, possibly combined with other tools such 
>as MyHDL.  I'm not saying these are necessarily the best solutions for 
>your customer, but it is the only way to be sure that you can run 
>exactly the same design software in the future on any computer. 
>Unfortunately, you can't avoid using at least some software from your 
>PLD supplier.

I know that, but customer wants to host Visual basic application and
data files stored on the flash drive so that discounts DOS or Linux type
solutions.

Mind you I have known some linux applications not always be runnable later
because they assume either a specific flavour of linux or specific library
version and fail on newer versions. You cannot always find out all those
details immediately as the folks don't always tell you.

>And note that XP will probably not be available in 10 years time, and

I know it was stated as 'min' requirement, considering Vista is slated out
soon(ish). There are lots of Win 98 systems around today, and I still see
people who have Win 95, even in large organisations.

>there's a realistic chance that whatever version of windows is available 
>then will have trouble with XP-compatible versions of software dealing 
>with hardware (i.e., ISP devices) or licensing software.  Even if you 
>want to use windows for development now, check for linux versions of the 
>tools as a backup plan.

Currently my aim is to give them what they ask for having pointed out the
pitfalls. Other criteria dictate other long term solutions not being possible.

-- 
Paul Carpenter          | paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk
<http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/>    PC Services
<http://www.gnuh8.org.uk/>              GNU H8 & mailing list info
<http://www.badweb.org.uk/>             For those web sites you hate

David Brown wrote:
>  Both A and X should have floating licenses,
> which are not tied to a specific machine, but I haven't look at that in
> detail.

The floating license is still locked to the license server, so while
you have the ability to run the software on any machine that can
connect to that server, you still have to maintain the server.  I
suppose you could keep the same Ethernet card as you upgrade servers
...

> If you want to value long term availability of the software above all
> else, you should be looking at open source tools.  That's the only way
> you can be sure of availability of the tools in the future, and
> compatibility with operating systems and pc's in the future.  You should
> therefore be considering Icarus, possibly combined with other tools such
> as MyHDL.  I'm not saying these are necessarily the best solutions for
> your customer, but it is the only way to be sure that you can run
> exactly the same design software in the future on any computer.
> Unfortunately, you can't avoid using at least some software from your
> PLD supplier.

Right, the fitter tools are vendor-specific and change regularly, so
relying on open-source doesn't help.

-a

On 1 Nov, in article
     <1162396591.964796.35330@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
     me@linnix.info-for.us "linnix" wrote:

>Paul Carpenter wrote:
>> I know others here have to deal with long life time support of designs, and I
>> have one where I ahev to also supply the tools (free or paid) so that customer
>> can support in at least 10 years time. The trouble is the design necessitates
>> a PLD/CPLD/FPGA, so the requirements get quite onerous....
>>
>> Device
>>         100 registers min
>>         50 I/O min
>>         Surface mount as TQFP/PQFP/PLCC
>>                 (i.e. NOT BGA etc..)
>>         5V I/O or tolerant I/O
>>         Fastest clock is currently 25MHz
>>         Less than 80mA total Icc
>>                 (not all sections operating at same time)
>>         Flash or EEPROM programming (no RAM devices)
>
>XC95108 should cover all.

That was my view of the parts from Xilinx.

>>         Spare parts to be held on shelf to cope with 10 years life.
>
>Should not be a problem.
>
>>
>> Software tools
>>         Must support XP minimum
>
>Win 98/2000

Wonder what issues with XP and Vista will be, as unfortunately the host is
not being tied down.

>>         Schematic capture entry (customer does not want VHDL as main source)
>
>As stated from another post, wrong decision.

I know not mine, but a written in stone one from customer. One day I will
have to do a page on 'written in stone' along with 'the bit of the spec that
you must comply with that we forgot to tell you'.

>>         Any generated files as TEXT, not encoded
>>         One time license (no recurring license renewal to use)
>
>License free webpack.
>
>>         NOT tied to a machine or disk drive
>>         Software must be available as disk or single file installation
>>                 (NO web based installation process)
>>         Installation file(s) must take less than 400MB
>
>200MB single installation file.  Don't use any updates.
>
>>                 (as being stored as one of the items on 1GB flash drives
>>                  for primary source of archive, other copies will exist)
>
>600MB installed.  Can strip it down manually by removing all the FPGA
>stuffs.  In fact, I am thinking about rebuilding a installation file
>after stripping all the junks and outdated xilinx ads.  I don't need to
>be remind of the new cool series of cool runners.

That's the sort of help that means something could become useable.

>> ...
>>         Xilinx  - Even free software is 970MB download and 380MB service pack
>>                   which is about twice (or more) the size of XP installation
>>                   and service packs.
>>                   Have not had chance to examine file structure or machine
>>                   tie-ins.
>
>Use older version, such as ise4.  It will do everything you need for
>CPLD.

Thanks. I wish they did not try to do you must download support for everything
just in case you might need it, there must be better ways of distributing
PLD/FPGA software so you can get the language files you want and the chip
support you want.

-- 
Paul Carpenter          | paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk
<http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/>    PC Services
<http://www.gnuh8.org.uk/>              GNU H8 & mailing list info
<http://www.badweb.org.uk/>             For those web sites you hate

Paul Carpenter wrote:
> I know others here have to deal with long life time support of designs, and I
> have one where I ahev to also supply the tools (free or paid) so that customer
> can support in at least 10 years time. The trouble is the design necessitates
> a PLD/CPLD/FPGA, so the requirements get quite onerous....
> 
> Device
>         100 registers min
>         50 I/O min
>         Surface mount as TQFP/PQFP/PLCC
>                 (i.e. NOT BGA etc..)
>         5V I/O or tolerant I/O
>         Fastest clock is currently 25MHz
>         Less than 80mA total Icc
>                 (not all sections operating at same time)
>         Flash or EEPROM programming (no RAM devices)
> 
>         Spare parts to be held on shelf to cope with 10 years life.
> 
> Software tools
>         Must support XP minimum
>         Schematic capture entry (customer does not want VHDL as main source)
>         Any generated files as TEXT, not encoded
>         One time license (no recurring license renewal to use)

That kills _almost_ all candidates right there.... :)

>         NOT tied to a machine or disk drive
>         Software must be available as disk or single file installation
>                 (NO web based installation process)
>         Installation file(s) must take less than 400MB
>                 (as being stored as one of the items on 1GB flash drives
>                  for primary source of archive, other copies will exist)
>         ISP software must work on any machine regardless of license status.
> 
> Now I have looked at various suppliers and so far discounted
> 
>         Altera  - Free and paid for software is continual licence renewal
>                   Tied to specific machine
> 
>         Xilinx  - Even free software is 970MB download and 380MB service pack
>                   which is about twice (or more) the size of XP installation
>                   and service packs.
>                   Have not had chance to examine file structure or machine
>                   tie-ins.
> 
>         Lattice - not seen suitable device yet
>                 - not evaluated software.
> 
> I know this is a tight set of constraints, but others must get at least
> some of these problems. My main issue is that this is very small volume (10
> maximum), but has to be covered by these constraints at least, others
> may suddenly be 'remembered'.
> 
> It seems that even the tools are becoming as throw away as the life cycle
> of the parts assuming developers are making this months mobile phone/laptop
> and then throw the tools away next month. Seems programmable logic is
> becoming something that cannot be used for long life time products. The
> drive for replacing with ever bigger devices mean anything designed last year
> may end up being redesigned due to EOL on products so quickly.
> 
> Looking for pointers and suggestions, even inspiration. 

You should look at Atmel's ATF1508ASL (Meets all device targets),
and WinCUPL design flow (meets all SW targets).

Stable, well under 400MB (<10MB for command line engine), Text entry,
Meets the spec: "(customer does not want VHDL as main source)"

Use this to meet their "Schematic capture entry " bullet
http://www.tech-chat.de/files/AACircuit1_28_6.zip

All generated files are TEXT

License does NOT expire.

Second candidate would be AnaChip/WinPLACE, but they do not have a 50io
device.

Aside: Your spec does not call for _operate_ from flash drive, but that
should be possible.
  I have not tested WinCUPL (command Line) running from a FlashDrive 
yet, but size will not be a problem, and I know Text Editors can run 
from Flash Drives. When I get my flash drive back from the borrower, I'll
try it sometime. Might slow the 1-2 second compile times, to 5-10 
seconds... ?

-jg

Paul Carpenter wrote:
> I know others here have to deal with long life time support of designs, and I
> have one where I ahev to also supply the tools (free or paid) so that customer
> can support in at least 10 years time. The trouble is the design necessitates
> a PLD/CPLD/FPGA, so the requirements get quite onerous....
> 
> Device
>         100 registers min
>         50 I/O min
>         Surface mount as TQFP/PQFP/PLCC
>                 (i.e. NOT BGA etc..)
>         5V I/O or tolerant I/O
>         Fastest clock is currently 25MHz
>         Less than 80mA total Icc
>                 (not all sections operating at same time)
>         Flash or EEPROM programming (no RAM devices)
> 
>         Spare parts to be held on shelf to cope with 10 years life.
> 
> Software tools
>         Must support XP minimum
>         Schematic capture entry (customer does not want VHDL as main source)
>         Any generated files as TEXT, not encoded
>         One time license (no recurring license renewal to use)
>         NOT tied to a machine or disk drive
>         Software must be available as disk or single file installation
>                 (NO web based installation process)
>         Installation file(s) must take less than 400MB
>                 (as being stored as one of the items on 1GB flash drives
>                  for primary source of archive, other copies will exist)
>         ISP software must work on any machine regardless of license status.

The normal version of Altera Quartus doesn't
require a recurring license. It comes with a
dongle and is valid forever. The last price I
heard was 2k$

Rene
-- 
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
& commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net

Hi Paul,

Not sure if anybody mentioned it but I would also have a look Actel (e.g. 
APA/A3E devices). Because they support military/avionics their devices are 
not EOL'd so quickly, also some of their largest devices are available in 
PQ240.

Just a thought,

Hans.
www.ht-lab.com


"Paul Carpenter" <paul$@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:20061101.1341.321856snz@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk...
>I know others here have to deal with long life time support of designs, and 
>I
> have one where I ahev to also supply the tools (free or paid) so that 
> customer
> can support in at least 10 years time. The trouble is the design 
> necessitates
> a PLD/CPLD/FPGA, so the requirements get quite onerous....
>
> Device
>        100 registers min
>        50 I/O min
>        Surface mount as TQFP/PQFP/PLCC
>                (i.e. NOT BGA etc..)
>        5V I/O or tolerant I/O
>        Fastest clock is currently 25MHz
>        Less than 80mA total Icc
>                (not all sections operating at same time)
>        Flash or EEPROM programming (no RAM devices)
>
>        Spare parts to be held on shelf to cope with 10 years life.
>
> Software tools
>        Must support XP minimum
>        Schematic capture entry (customer does not want VHDL as main 
> source)
>        Any generated files as TEXT, not encoded
>        One time license (no recurring license renewal to use)
>        NOT tied to a machine or disk drive
>        Software must be available as disk or single file installation
>                (NO web based installation process)
>        Installation file(s) must take less than 400MB
>                (as being stored as one of the items on 1GB flash drives
>                 for primary source of archive, other copies will exist)
>        ISP software must work on any machine regardless of license status.
>
> Now I have looked at various suppliers and so far discounted
>
>        Altera  - Free and paid for software is continual licence renewal
>                  Tied to specific machine
>
>        Xilinx  - Even free software is 970MB download and 380MB service 
> pack
>                  which is about twice (or more) the size of XP 
> installation
>                  and service packs.
>                  Have not had chance to examine file structure or machine
>                  tie-ins.
>
>        Lattice - not seen suitable device yet
>                - not evaluated software.
>
> I know this is a tight set of constraints, but others must get at least
> some of these problems. My main issue is that this is very small volume 
> (10
> maximum), but has to be covered by these constraints at least, others
> may suddenly be 'remembered'.
>
> It seems that even the tools are becoming as throw away as the life cycle
> of the parts assuming developers are making this months mobile 
> phone/laptop
> and then throw the tools away next month. Seems programmable logic is
> becoming something that cannot be used for long life time products. The
> drive for replacing with ever bigger devices mean anything designed last 
> year
> may end up being redesigned due to EOL on products so quickly.
>
> Looking for pointers and suggestions, even inspiration.
>
> -- 
> Paul Carpenter          | paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk
> <http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/>    PC Services
> <http://www.gnuh8.org.uk/>              GNU H8 & mailing list info
> <http://www.badweb.org.uk/>             For those web sites you hate
> 

> >Win 98/2000
>
> Wonder what issues with XP and Vista will be, as unfortunately the host is
> not being tied down.

Have not try this on XP.  No need or desire to do so.
I always keep old copies of OS and tools anyway.
Ten years from now.   I don't need to run the latest OS
with 15 years old tools and 20 years old chips (XC95XX).