ARM IDE & kit similar to CCS for PIC's?

Chris Hills wrote:
> In article <13c86o2ejpq04b5@corp.supernews.com>, Paul Curtis 
> <plc@rowley.co.uk> writes

>> Of course. This is clearly stated as one of the benefits of using
>> our tools. In this way commercial customers can be sure that their 
>> application will not be covered by a GPL or LGPL license inherited
>> from the inclusion of GPL/LGPL code in the library they link in.

> Does this mean that if you link in a GPL library then you have to 
> release the source of the application?  

Yes.

> That would mean that you could 
> not use GCC with a GPL licence for commercial work. 

No, it doesn't.  Because GCC is a GPLed *program*, not a GPLed library.

And frankly, I'm quite surprised you have to ask this.

Chris Hills <chris@phaedsys.org> writes:
> Does this mean that if you link in a GPL library then you have to
> release the source of the application?

Yes.  That's the price the author of that library requires for your
use of their work.

> That would mean that you could not use GCC with a GPL licence for
> commercial work. I assume I have miss understood somewhere?

You have misunderstood.  "Using gcc" is not the same as "linking gcc
into your program", which would trigger the GPL (gcc itself is GPL'd).
The mere act of *using* a program does not cause its *output*
(generated from your input) to inherit that program's license.  An
exception would be something like bison or yacc, which insert a huge
chunk of its own source code into the output.

Perhaps you're thinking of libgcc, which has an explicit exception to
the GPL which allows its inclusion in non-GPL binaries, assuming the
compiler used is gcc?

And as an example of compatibility with proprietary ("commercial" is
the wrong word for this argument, it just means you get paid, it has
nothing to do with the license) products, consider that Microchip's
tools are based on gcc, so they're GPL'd, yet people write proprietary
code with them all the time.  Also pretty much ALL Linux programs,
including proprietary ones such as Oracle, are all built with gcc.

In article <69pbc3pu9n8tkfgffd41kfqedbutbuolum@4ax.com>, Jonathan Kirwan 
<jkirwan@easystreet.com> writes
>On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:35:07 +0100, Chris Hills <chris@phaedsys.org>
>wrote:
>
>>In article <3ac9c39ad10dids2pvfmgn2u3ommmv6pum@4ax.com>, Jonathan Kirwan
>><jkirwan@easystreet.com> writes
>>>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:13:53 +0200, Anton Erasmus
>>><nobody@spam.prevent.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 22:17:20 -0000, The_Todd <toddberk@gmail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Bear with me as I'm a student mechanical engineer and micro
>>>>>controllers are my hobby.
>>>>>
>>>>>I've become quite familiar with PIC microcontrollers using the CCS
>>>>>compiler which I am quite fond of. I started out with their education
>>>>>development kit that was a fantastic resource that came with the great
>>>>>compiler, hardware, and an excellent work book with simple examples
>>>>>and explanations. Its here: http://ccsinfo.com/content.php?page=education
>>>>>
>>>>>My question is: Is there anything similar to the CCS IDE for the ARM
>>>>>controllers? A reasonably priced ($300) well supported and documented
>>>>>thats easy to use IDE that supports JTAG etc...? I'm not interested in
>>>>>the GNU GCC.
>>>>
>>>>Both Hitex and Raisonance makes commercial IDEs that can integrate
>>>>with GNU GCC. You do not need to write makefiles etc. Both have
>>>>demo versions you can download. The basic difference between the
>>>>demo and full versions is that the debug support is limited with the
>>>>demo versions. Both sell development kits that has the IDE and gcc
>>>>bundled with the kit with documentation on getting examples going on
>>>>the development kits. The Hitex documentation looks better than the
>>>>Raisonance documentations.
>>>
>>>This debug limitation seems (to me) to be prevalent in the ARM JTAG
>>>tool field.  It seems that nearly everyone offering a "simple, cheap,
>>>JTAG tool" for ARMs have proprietary debug interfaces,
>>
>>There are several types of JTAG. The parralell-port ones and the USB
>>ones. Most of the parallel-port ones are VERY basic and require a lot of
>>work in software as they are usually just a buffer IC. .
>
>I'm thinking in particular of the USB variety.
>
>>The USB variants tend to have MCU's in them and therefore can do more in
>>the JTAG-debugger  firmware
>
>Granted.
>
>>There is a standard RDI interface that most adhere to either as a
>>standard or as an optional interface. Though as mentioned most, for
>>speed and increased integration use their own system.
>
>I'm not familiar with the RDI interface.  However, I definitely recall
>reading, for example, that the JLINK driver is intentionally limited
>in terms of code size (not sure if it was strictly 'code,' but there
>was a definite, arbitrary limit placed upon it by the provided
>drivers.)

Not at all. There are no limits on the J-link (or U-link, R-link, 
SAM-ICE )
Where did you get that information from?

>>>Windows
>>>drivers, and so on.
>>
>>The majority are for windows as trhe majority of ARM cross compilers are
>>on windows.
>
>That's not the point, though.

Yes it is. Tools are made for the common engineering environments. If 
the compilers are on Windows the people doing the Jtags are going to 
write SW to interface their HW to them.  In the case of Keil they are 
going to interface it to their compiler/debuggers

> It's not about the bulk market some
>company is targeting.  The point was about unexpected limitations in
>USB JTAG tools for ARM.

Limitations such as what?

>separately.  Then, I also became increasingly aware of limitations for
>the Keil ULINK2 software, which so far as I could find, cannot be used
>with a FreeBSD hosted development environment ...

You misunderstand. It is not a limitation.   The design requirement does 
not need to support free BSD for obvious reasons. Why should it.

> not because it isn't
>technically possible but instead because (1) Keil doesn't provide the
>required technical information to operate their ULINK2 devices so that
>3rd parties can write the appropriate gdb servers, and

Why should they?


> (2) Keil
>doesn't provide the unlimited gdb servers, either.

Why should they? I am sure that if you paid them they would do one. 
However they developed the U-link to work with their debugger/simulator. 
NOT GDB.  You can't blame Keil for not doing a gdb server.. They only 
provide the U-link to support sales of their compiler/debugger 
software.....

If you want to do something else with their hardware other than it's 
intended use  they don't have to help.  Of course you could pay then the 
money for them to do an interface to a competing system...

>>Which interface? How do you mean intentionally hobbled?
>
>For example, the JLINK uses SEGGER drivers.

Of  course. What else would you expect?  Segger make the J-link

> For full debugging
>support, you need to pay an additional fee (too expensive for many
>hobbyists) to get it unlocked.

It is not designed for hobbists. That is not their market.

>  The driver that comes with many of
>these tools is hobbled, by design.

No it's not

>The debug interface for the ULINK
>from Keil is similarly limited to their own software, uVision; a
>closed software arrangement.

Absolutely. Why not?  They have produced a small Jtag to support their 
own software. Your problem is what?

> I believe I understand that although
>uVision does support GNU tools,

No. UVision can support the Gcc compiler and Keil's own 
simulator/debugger.  The only reason Keil made the U-link was to support 
sales of their own debugger software.

>it only does so from Windows

Of course. It is the only one that is relevant to them,

>and they
>doesn't provide an unfettered gdb server in source so that it can be
>compiled for Linux, FreeBSD, etc.

Why on earth would the want to do that... Actually I expect they would 
if you will fund the work.

>The limitations vary.  But, for example, if I were to purchase a JTAG
>tool like these

NOT like those because they are designed an implemented for a purpose 
different to the one you want to use them for.

>with the expectation of being able to just go use my
>GNU software tools with the JTAG hardware I bought, under FreeBSD for
>example,

EASY  NO problem... There are quite a few JTAGS that will work in that 
combination..... However not the ones you have chosen.   Those Jtags 
have severe limitations though.... They won't work with Keil, IAR,  etc 
etc

> and without some arbitrary code size limitation

No code limitations on the HW I am aware of. Where did you get that 
from?

> popping up or
>else some difficulty finding unrestricted debug support software, I
>might be taken aback by the reality that unfolds after the purchase.

Then buy the tools aimed at the Free BDS market.


>Actually, though, I'm quite eager to hear about unlimited, unfettered
>USB JTAG debugger tools that fully support RTCK and have unlimited gdb
>servers (hopefully provided in source form.)  I will be very pleased
>to find the situation much better than I imagine it to be, now.

The situation you have is picking up two low costs tools aimed at one 
market and you are complaining they don't do something they were never 
intended to do.

The J-link ant U-link are LOW COST systems. There ar eJTAGS that will 
cost you   1-5K GBB

>I understand that I'm VERY NEW to this area,
This is obvious...

>only this last month or
>so, and cannot possibly understand the full situation.  So realize
>that I'm speaking not so much from an informed position as from an
>early entrant into this development situation.

There are MANY J-tags out there. You have picked 2.
The Keil only exists to support the sales of the Keil debugger.

The Segger was designed for professional engineers (not hobby use) and 
works with several top end compiler systems.  It also has a range of 
addon software for various things.  They do a gdb server but NOT a FOSS 
one.

-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

In article <b4rbc3dagv158i6go917evijtn2r7o4rmq@4ax.com>, Jonathan Kirwan
<jkirwan@easystreet.com> writes
>On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:30:16 +0100, Chris Hills <chris@phaedsys.org>
>wrote:
>
>>In article <uob9c3hua6a1rddq4t8ak2jg5ft13jfolj@4ax.com>, Anton Erasmus
>><nobody@spam.prevent.net> writes
>>>On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 22:17:20 -0000, The_Todd <toddberk@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Bear with me as I'm a student mechanical engineer and micro
>>>>controllers are my hobby.
>>>>
>>>>I've become quite familiar with PIC microcontrollers using the CCS
>>>>compiler which I am quite fond of. I started out with their education
>>>>development kit that was a fantastic resource that came with the great
>>>>compiler, hardware, and an excellent work book with simple examples
>>>>and explanations. Its here: http://ccsinfo.com/content.php?page=education
>>>>
>>>>My question is: Is there anything similar to the CCS IDE for the ARM
>>>>controllers? A reasonably priced ($300) well supported and documented
>>>>thats easy to use IDE that supports JTAG etc...? I'm not interested in
>>>>the GNU GCC.
>>>
>>>Both Hitex and Raisonance makes commercial IDEs that can integrate
>>>with GNU GCC.
>>
>>The Hitex IDE is Hitop which is designed to drive their Emulators, It is
>>not, and was never designed to be a really good programmer's IDE. It has
>>too many limitations
>>
>>I have not seen the Rasionance one but the Keil uVision will work with
>>GCC and that is a VERY good editor, project control and simulator
>>system,
>
>But let's say you are developing under Linux or, even better, FreeBSD.
>What's the situation with ULINK2 here?
>
>Jon

There is no situation with U-link.
The Keil  U-link is a piece of hardware specifically designed to support
sales of the Keil debugger software.  No more than that.

If you are developing under Linux, Free BSD, Solaris,  VMS, AIX  etc
you need to buy a JTAG that has support in those environments.

I am sure there are quite a few JTAGs that have been developed by the
FOSS community  (in fact I know there are,  I saw some about 5 years
ago)   that have Linux SW . However they are SEVERELY limited because
they have no WS windows support......

Horses for courses.

Keil U-link is for supporting Keil software
Segger J-link is an entry level professional tool The support software
is chargeable but the do have  a gdb server.

For Linux and Free BSD there (must be) hardware aimed at it.
Try www.Rowely.co.uk  (But don't tell them I sent you It will ruin my
street cred  :-)

Regards
 Chris

-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:21:30 GMT, Jonathan Kirwan
<jkirwan@easystreet.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:13:53 +0200, Anton Erasmus
><nobody@spam.prevent.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 22:17:20 -0000, The_Todd <toddberk@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Bear with me as I'm a student mechanical engineer and micro
>>>controllers are my hobby.
>>>
>>>I've become quite familiar with PIC microcontrollers using the CCS
>>>compiler which I am quite fond of. I started out with their education
>>>development kit that was a fantastic resource that came with the great
>>>compiler, hardware, and an excellent work book with simple examples
>>>and explanations. Its here: http://ccsinfo.com/content.php?page=education
>>>
>>>My question is: Is there anything similar to the CCS IDE for the ARM
>>>controllers? A reasonably priced ($300) well supported and documented
>>>thats easy to use IDE that supports JTAG etc...? I'm not interested in
>>>the GNU GCC.
>>
>>Both Hitex and Raisonance makes commercial IDEs that can integrate
>>with GNU GCC. You do not need to write makefiles etc. Both have 
>>demo versions you can download. The basic difference between the 
>>demo and full versions is that the debug support is limited with the
>>demo versions. Both sell development kits that has the IDE and gcc
>>bundled with the kit with documentation on getting examples going on
>>the development kits. The Hitex documentation looks better than the
>>Raisonance documentations.
>
>This debug limitation seems (to me) to be prevalent in the ARM JTAG
>tool field.  It seems that nearly everyone offering a "simple, cheap,
>JTAG tool" for ARMs have proprietary debug interfaces, Windows
>drivers, and so on.  This can mean complications for Linux development
>and unexpected problems for those imagining they are getting a useful
>tool and realizing too late that the debug interface has been hobbled,
>intentionally.

Yes, It is a problem. Rowley at least offers a Linux as well as
Windows version. I cannot recall what the Rowley demo limitations
is.

Regards
  Anton Erasmus

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 20:59:08 +0100, Chris Hills <chris@phaedsys.org>
wrote:

>In article <b4rbc3dagv158i6go917evijtn2r7o4rmq@4ax.com>, Jonathan Kirwan
><jkirwan@easystreet.com> writes
>>On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:30:16 +0100, Chris Hills <chris@phaedsys.org>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article <uob9c3hua6a1rddq4t8ak2jg5ft13jfolj@4ax.com>, Anton Erasmus
>>><nobody@spam.prevent.net> writes
>>>>On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 22:17:20 -0000, The_Todd <toddberk@gmail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Bear with me as I'm a student mechanical engineer and micro
>>>>>controllers are my hobby.
>>>>>
>>>>>I've become quite familiar with PIC microcontrollers using the CCS
>>>>>compiler which I am quite fond of. I started out with their education
>>>>>development kit that was a fantastic resource that came with the great
>>>>>compiler, hardware, and an excellent work book with simple examples
>>>>>and explanations. Its here: http://ccsinfo.com/content.php?page=education
>>>>>
>>>>>My question is: Is there anything similar to the CCS IDE for the ARM
>>>>>controllers? A reasonably priced ($300) well supported and documented
>>>>>thats easy to use IDE that supports JTAG etc...? I'm not interested in
>>>>>the GNU GCC.
>>>>
>>>>Both Hitex and Raisonance makes commercial IDEs that can integrate
>>>>with GNU GCC.
>>>
>>>The Hitex IDE is Hitop which is designed to drive their Emulators, It is
>>>not, and was never designed to be a really good programmer's IDE. It has
>>>too many limitations
>>>
>>>I have not seen the Rasionance one but the Keil uVision will work with
>>>GCC and that is a VERY good editor, project control and simulator
>>>system,
>>
>>But let's say you are developing under Linux or, even better, FreeBSD.
>>What's the situation with ULINK2 here?
>>
>>Jon
>
>There is no situation with U-link.

Agreed.

But to me, it's just a piece of hardware.  It provides a link between
a USB port and a standard JTAG connector on a target board.  There is
firmware inside, but there is no good reason I can think of why that
firmware interface isn't completely publicly disclosed, so that 3rd
parties may, if they wish, write appropriate drivers for full access
to the hardware capabilities exposed by the firmware inside it.

>The Keil  U-link is a piece of hardware specifically designed to support
>sales of the Keil debugger software.  No more than that.

That's just a restatement of the reality.  However, as I said above, I
think the point is that it is easy for someone walking into this
situation to mentally treat a JTAG debugger/downloader tool as a
hardware tool.  Not as something you can only use specifically with
Keil debuggers running under their very few supported operating
environments.

Of course, I checked.  But as I said earlier, there is no good reason
why the firmware interface isn't completely publicly disclosed.  (This
is NOT the same thing as asking for the source code to the firmware to
be disclosed -- only the protocols.)  If that were the case, others
would quickly write the appropriate servers for gdb.

>If you are developing under Linux, Free BSD, Solaris,  VMS, AIX  etc
>you need to buy a JTAG that has support in those environments.

That is an obvious truth.  It doesn't address what _should be_,
though.

>I am sure there are quite a few JTAGs that have been developed by the
>FOSS community  (in fact I know there are,  I saw some about 5 years
>ago)   that have Linux SW . However they are SEVERELY limited because
>they have no WS windows support......

Actually, I think Windows support almost comes with the territory.
There is a lot of effort that has already gone into allowing execution
of linux programs under Windows (cygwin?) and into generally adapting
the GNU GCC compilers for that.  So I don't expect that direction to
be a serious problem for much of a length of time.  Some of the JTAG
tools work both ways, too.  For example, I believe there is a free (or
provided with the tool without extra cost) gdb server for the JLINK.
But as I understand it, that one has severe limits and again the
protocol is not disclosed so that others can reasonably work to remedy
that problem on their own.  But you mentioned "RDI" and I haven't had
a chance to research that, yet.  So perhaps I'm wrong here.

>Horses for courses.

I suppose.  But I'd rather that these tools not be treated as a
"software * hardware" thing and instead as a "software + hardware"
thing.  In other words, the hardware/firmware is fully documented as a
tool separated from the software that it may be used with and where
3rd parties can reasonably and meaningfully add value when and where
they wish to do so.  None of this requires exposure of the internal
firmware's source code.  Just a complete document regarding signals,
power supplies, and protocols needed to operate the device one is
buying.  I don't believe this is unreasonable.

>Keil U-link is for supporting Keil software

Yes, I got that from you, already.

>Segger J-link is an entry level professional tool The support software
>is chargeable but the do have  a gdb server.

Yes, there is a separate, unrestricted gdb server that they provide at
a fairly high cost.

>For Linux and Free BSD there (must be) hardware aimed at it.

I've already found some.

>Try www.Rowely.co.uk  (But don't tell them I sent you It will ruin my
>street cred  :-)

Paul has already generously provided his own tools and I'm in debt to
him for that.  They are excellent from my limited use so far, as has
been his help aside.

Jon

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 21:59:47 +0200, Anton Erasmus
<nobody@spam.prevent.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:21:30 GMT, Jonathan Kirwan
><jkirwan@easystreet.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:13:53 +0200, Anton Erasmus
>><nobody@spam.prevent.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 22:17:20 -0000, The_Todd <toddberk@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Bear with me as I'm a student mechanical engineer and micro
>>>>controllers are my hobby.
>>>>
>>>>I've become quite familiar with PIC microcontrollers using the CCS
>>>>compiler which I am quite fond of. I started out with their education
>>>>development kit that was a fantastic resource that came with the great
>>>>compiler, hardware, and an excellent work book with simple examples
>>>>and explanations. Its here: http://ccsinfo.com/content.php?page=education
>>>>
>>>>My question is: Is there anything similar to the CCS IDE for the ARM
>>>>controllers? A reasonably priced ($300) well supported and documented
>>>>thats easy to use IDE that supports JTAG etc...? I'm not interested in
>>>>the GNU GCC.
>>>
>>>Both Hitex and Raisonance makes commercial IDEs that can integrate
>>>with GNU GCC. You do not need to write makefiles etc. Both have 
>>>demo versions you can download. The basic difference between the 
>>>demo and full versions is that the debug support is limited with the
>>>demo versions. Both sell development kits that has the IDE and gcc
>>>bundled with the kit with documentation on getting examples going on
>>>the development kits. The Hitex documentation looks better than the
>>>Raisonance documentations.
>>
>>This debug limitation seems (to me) to be prevalent in the ARM JTAG
>>tool field.  It seems that nearly everyone offering a "simple, cheap,
>>JTAG tool" for ARMs have proprietary debug interfaces, Windows
>>drivers, and so on.  This can mean complications for Linux development
>>and unexpected problems for those imagining they are getting a useful
>>tool and realizing too late that the debug interface has been hobbled,
>>intentionally.
>
>Yes, It is a problem. Rowley at least offers a Linux as well as
>Windows version. I cannot recall what the Rowley demo limitations
>is.

Thanks for that.

What surprises me, generally here, is that ARM is the forte of the GNU
GCC tools.  It's probably the better vetted arena for those tools.
There has been support for a long time, lots of folks supposedly using
them, etc.  It's a well-worn path, so to speak.

For all that, the JTAG debugger tools are often not what one might
expect out of a piece of hardware.  The first warning should be, I
suppose, that these tools are directly provided BY a compiler vendor
(Keil, for example) or provided somewhat indirectly but strongly
pushed by other compiler vendors (IAR, for example.)  As a consequence
of their own business needs, I think, the hardware isn't treated
business-wise as hardware tools often are -- well documented for those
wishing to write their own software to access the full features of the
hardware -- but instead as a compiler sales tool.

Now for all that, Paul at Rowley has chosen to provide yet-another
JTAG tool.  But he has explained his reason, and it's a good one. That
customers were struggling with the difficulties of using his software
in the context of hardware JTAG debuggers he didn't control and this
step of his was more a way to remedy that support problem than to
market his own software or to further confuse the JTAG debugger
situation.  Which makes sense.

Still, I had expected to see tools that fully supported the variations
in the ARM core arena, were fully documented as hardware/firmware
devices so that others could readily develop their own software to
fully use them, and sold by hardware companies who are doing business
AS hardware companies and not with some other axe to grind.  Instead,
many of these devices (not all) seem to be marketing tools for
compiler companies or else (as in the case of Segger) quite simply a
step on the way to selling a high priced driver that finally opens up
the features of the hardware you've bought into without expecting this
bait and switch, so to speak.

Jon

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 20:43:29 +0100, Chris Hills <chris@phaedsys.org>
wrote:

>In article <69pbc3pu9n8tkfgffd41kfqedbutbuolum@4ax.com>, Jonathan Kirwan 
><jkirwan@easystreet.com> writes
>>On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:35:07 +0100, Chris Hills <chris@phaedsys.org>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article <3ac9c39ad10dids2pvfmgn2u3ommmv6pum@4ax.com>, Jonathan Kirwan
>>><jkirwan@easystreet.com> writes
>>>>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:13:53 +0200, Anton Erasmus
>>>><nobody@spam.prevent.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 22:17:20 -0000, The_Todd <toddberk@gmail.com>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Bear with me as I'm a student mechanical engineer and micro
>>>>>>controllers are my hobby.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I've become quite familiar with PIC microcontrollers using the CCS
>>>>>>compiler which I am quite fond of. I started out with their education
>>>>>>development kit that was a fantastic resource that came with the great
>>>>>>compiler, hardware, and an excellent work book with simple examples
>>>>>>and explanations. Its here: http://ccsinfo.com/content.php?page=education
>>>>>>
>>>>>>My question is: Is there anything similar to the CCS IDE for the ARM
>>>>>>controllers? A reasonably priced ($300) well supported and documented
>>>>>>thats easy to use IDE that supports JTAG etc...? I'm not interested in
>>>>>>the GNU GCC.
>>>>>
>>>>>Both Hitex and Raisonance makes commercial IDEs that can integrate
>>>>>with GNU GCC. You do not need to write makefiles etc. Both have
>>>>>demo versions you can download. The basic difference between the
>>>>>demo and full versions is that the debug support is limited with the
>>>>>demo versions. Both sell development kits that has the IDE and gcc
>>>>>bundled with the kit with documentation on getting examples going on
>>>>>the development kits. The Hitex documentation looks better than the
>>>>>Raisonance documentations.
>>>>
>>>>This debug limitation seems (to me) to be prevalent in the ARM JTAG
>>>>tool field.  It seems that nearly everyone offering a "simple, cheap,
>>>>JTAG tool" for ARMs have proprietary debug interfaces,
>>>
>>>There are several types of JTAG. The parralell-port ones and the USB
>>>ones. Most of the parallel-port ones are VERY basic and require a lot of
>>>work in software as they are usually just a buffer IC. .
>>
>>I'm thinking in particular of the USB variety.
>>
>>>The USB variants tend to have MCU's in them and therefore can do more in
>>>the JTAG-debugger  firmware
>>
>>Granted.
>>
>>>There is a standard RDI interface that most adhere to either as a
>>>standard or as an optional interface. Though as mentioned most, for
>>>speed and increased integration use their own system.
>>
>>I'm not familiar with the RDI interface.  However, I definitely recall
>>reading, for example, that the JLINK driver is intentionally limited
>>in terms of code size (not sure if it was strictly 'code,' but there
>>was a definite, arbitrary limit placed upon it by the provided
>>drivers.)
>
>Not at all. There are no limits on the J-link (or U-link, R-link, 
>SAM-ICE )
>Where did you get that information from?

The Raisonance R-Link that one get with their cheap development
kit has limitations. It only allows 16K RAM Debugging. If one buys the
IDE, then one has unlimited RAM debugging, but one has to buy their
more expensive R-link Pro, together with the IDE, which then allows
unlimted Flash and RAM debugging.

[Rest Snipped]

Regards
  Anton Erasmus

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 22:14:56 GMT, Jonathan Kirwan
<jkirwan@easystreet.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 21:59:47 +0200, Anton Erasmus
><nobody@spam.prevent.net> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:21:30 GMT, Jonathan Kirwan
>><jkirwan@easystreet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:13:53 +0200, Anton Erasmus
>>><nobody@spam.prevent.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 22:17:20 -0000, The_Todd <toddberk@gmail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Bear with me as I'm a student mechanical engineer and micro
>>>>>controllers are my hobby.
>>>>>
>>>>>I've become quite familiar with PIC microcontrollers using the CCS
>>>>>compiler which I am quite fond of. I started out with their education
>>>>>development kit that was a fantastic resource that came with the great
>>>>>compiler, hardware, and an excellent work book with simple examples
>>>>>and explanations. Its here: http://ccsinfo.com/content.php?page=education
>>>>>
>>>>>My question is: Is there anything similar to the CCS IDE for the ARM
>>>>>controllers? A reasonably priced ($300) well supported and documented
>>>>>thats easy to use IDE that supports JTAG etc...? I'm not interested in
>>>>>the GNU GCC.
>>>>
>>>>Both Hitex and Raisonance makes commercial IDEs that can integrate
>>>>with GNU GCC. You do not need to write makefiles etc. Both have 
>>>>demo versions you can download. The basic difference between the 
>>>>demo and full versions is that the debug support is limited with the
>>>>demo versions. Both sell development kits that has the IDE and gcc
>>>>bundled with the kit with documentation on getting examples going on
>>>>the development kits. The Hitex documentation looks better than the
>>>>Raisonance documentations.
>>>
>>>This debug limitation seems (to me) to be prevalent in the ARM JTAG
>>>tool field.  It seems that nearly everyone offering a "simple, cheap,
>>>JTAG tool" for ARMs have proprietary debug interfaces, Windows
>>>drivers, and so on.  This can mean complications for Linux development
>>>and unexpected problems for those imagining they are getting a useful
>>>tool and realizing too late that the debug interface has been hobbled,
>>>intentionally.
>>
>>Yes, It is a problem. Rowley at least offers a Linux as well as
>>Windows version. I cannot recall what the Rowley demo limitations
>>is.
>
>Thanks for that.
>
>What surprises me, generally here, is that ARM is the forte of the GNU
>GCC tools.  It's probably the better vetted arena for those tools.
>There has been support for a long time, lots of folks supposedly using
>them, etc.  It's a well-worn path, so to speak.
>
>For all that, the JTAG debugger tools are often not what one might
>expect out of a piece of hardware.  The first warning should be, I
>suppose, that these tools are directly provided BY a compiler vendor
>(Keil, for example) or provided somewhat indirectly but strongly
>pushed by other compiler vendors (IAR, for example.)  As a consequence
>of their own business needs, I think, the hardware isn't treated
>business-wise as hardware tools often are -- well documented for those
>wishing to write their own software to access the full features of the
>hardware -- but instead as a compiler sales tool.
>
>Now for all that, Paul at Rowley has chosen to provide yet-another
>JTAG tool.  But he has explained his reason, and it's a good one. That
>customers were struggling with the difficulties of using his software
>in the context of hardware JTAG debuggers he didn't control and this
>step of his was more a way to remedy that support problem than to
>market his own software or to further confuse the JTAG debugger
>situation.  Which makes sense.
>
>Still, I had expected to see tools that fully supported the variations
>in the ARM core arena, were fully documented as hardware/firmware
>devices so that others could readily develop their own software to
>fully use them, and sold by hardware companies who are doing business
>AS hardware companies and not with some other axe to grind.  Instead,
>many of these devices (not all) seem to be marketing tools for
>compiler companies or else (as in the case of Segger) quite simply a
>step on the way to selling a high priced driver that finally opens up
>the features of the hardware you've bought into without expecting this
>bait and switch, so to speak.

One do get independant JTAG Debuggers for ARM, which supports GDB,
annd most/all of the commercial compilers. e.g. The JTAG debugger from
Ronetix. However these tend to be priced from US$1500 upwards.

There is however an alternative in OpenOCD. This is an open source
JTAG debugger backend which can be used with gcc. It is available for
Windows and Linux. It supports the parallel port wigglers, and support
for a few cheap USB based debuggers has also been added. At
http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~hhoegl/proj/usbjtag/usbjtag.htm schematics
is available for a USB based debugger which is supported by OpenOCD.

Quite a few companies like olimex which supplies cheap ARM development
boards have cheap JTAG hardware which are supported by OCD.

Regards
  Anton Erasmus

On 18 Aug 2007 Anton Erasmus <nobody@spam.prevent.net> wrote:

[86 lines removed]

> One

[snip]

Please remove any parts of the previous messages you are not directly 
responding to. We do not want to have to skip past screen fulls of 
quoting on every message.

---druck

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