In article <k9umc3hnql4f0oe13qao6m5k4m0262e5ep@4ax.com>, The Real Andy <therealandy@nospam.com> writes>On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:28:59 GMT, Joerg ><notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote: > >>The Real Andy wrote: >> >>> On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:44:54 -0700, Joerg >>> <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:[mega snip I hope I got the attribution correct]>>> You said before that it needed a previous version of the framework. If >>> its written for 1.1, then it aint going to work for 2.0 unless its >>> recompiled for 2.0. >> >> >>Well, that proves the point. .NET appears to lack in backward >>compatibility. Else routines written for 1.1 would work. Even Windows is >>better in that respect. I do not have to recompile anything from the DOS >>or Windows 98 era to run it on XP. It just works. > >You have missed the point I am afraid. Each version was designed to >run side by side, it still can. It was designed so that version >assemblies with the same name can run side by side. That is the whole >point of .net.[snip] MS has (well I think) documented a small'ish number of 'breaking changes' between .NET 1.1 and .NET 2.0 which (IIRC) are in relatively unused places. http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-gb/netframework/aa497239.aspx If those 'breaking changes' are not in the areas a program uses then code compiled for .NET 1.1 runs OK under .NET 2.0 (as all my code does). And as others have said .NET 1.1 and .NET 2.0 are designed to (and always have for me) be installed side by side, although I'd be interested in how 1.1 installs if 2.0 is already installed... There could of course be things that the writers of a program have done that force the use of a particular version but that isn't the fault of MS or .NET. It occurs to me that if the program writers haven't written the installation package correctly that might also give grief. Overall I personally find .NET pretty well designed and very productive to work with (for what it's designed for and coming from an ASM, C and C++ background that is). -- Steve Goodwin... www.p2cl.co.uk (includes contact details)
Anyone used Portmon on a USB-RS232?
Started by ●August 15, 2007
Reply by ●August 22, 20072007-08-22
Reply by ●August 22, 20072007-08-22
The Real Andy wrote: [...]> > I was a hardware guy, then moved to embedded firmware, now pretty much > software consulting. I still get the odd maintenance or feature > addition job with some embedded stuff, but few and far in between. >Once when we had to wait out a major re-boot I had a brief chat about this kind of migration with one of the SW guys I network with. He said he used to be a HW engineer but the continuous obsolescence, allocation and leadtime issues with parts drove him nuts and he switched careers. Well, at least he still deals with some hardware because he own a large sea-going sailboat. There, you either develop excellent mechanics skills or you have to be a millionaire.> >>>As for recompiling dos apps, that is because you are compiling to >>>native code. If you were to do the same, using a com dll, then you >>>would NOT be able to run the 2 side by side, you can only replace. >>>Therefore you get the same issue with backward compatibility. >> >> >>Again, from a layman's perspective I can only say that all the old *.exe >>files from my wild days will still run just fine. Except the ones with >>the Borland runtime error but there is a kludge to make those work as >>well without a re-compile. >> >>Besides quality, for us HW guys there are just two states when it comes >>to SW: It either works or it doesn't. When I get my filter coefficients >>nicely listed it's working, when I get an error box, well ... ;-) > > > Its the same for me. I am a harsh critic of software dev and tools, > but this time i think MS have finally got it right. No so much in .net > 1/1.1, but 2.0 was good. >It would be for me as well but not if a routine that runs fine with 1.1 refuses to run with 2.0. To me that's a clear sign to stay away. Same with Vista. I have seen too much SW that I need or may need where there is a little note about compatibility and this either doesn't mention Vista or explicitly says it won't work with Vista yet. I'll definitely wait at least until those problems go away.> What annoys me most is the fact that when i do have to do firmware, > 90% of the tools that I have to use are from companies that have > disapearred into the ether. This is why now when i recommend tools I > will not approve of anything from a 2 man backyard operation. If I > want firmware tools, I want something that wii still be supported in > 10years, and for the company to still exist. Furthermore, I expect the > company to invest in dev and keep the tools up to date. A good recent > example of this was with Microchip tools. I had an ICE that cost > thousands of dollars, great tool, company gone. Now I also owned a > picstart plus programmer - still supported with a simple firmware > upgrade. Needless to say, the ICE has now been replaced with a > microchip ICD. >Yep, and the other problem is that sometimes you find a nice product from a healthy mid-size company but then a major corporate player swallows them. After that it's a coin toss. In rare circumstances the product is kept afloat. Many times they ditch it, other times they jack up the price so much that the product ditches itself. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
Reply by ●August 22, 20072007-08-22
The Real Andy wrote:> On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:01:17 -0700, Joerg > <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote: > > >>The Real Andy wrote: >> >> >>>On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:34:00 GMT, Joerg >>><notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>The Real Andy wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:49:34 -0700, Joerg >>>>><notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>The Real Andy wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 08:33:33 -0700, Joerg >>>>>>><notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The Real Andy wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 08:36:30 -0000, Ali <abdulrazaq@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On Aug 16, 3:52 pm, The Real Andy <thereala...@nospam.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:31:16 +0200, Leo Havm�ller >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>><rtx...@nospam.nospam> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>That sounds like a useful testing tool. Where does it come from? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>It comes from Mark Russinovich >>>>>>>>>>>>(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Russinovich). >>>>>>>>>>>>You can download PortMon and many other useful tools from: >>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sysinternals/default.mspx >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Leo Havm�ller. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>He wont go there, he hates MS. Mark and the other guy did a great job >>>>>>>>>>>with all the SysInternals tools. I have been using their tools for >>>>>>>>>>>years now. Hopefully they got enough cash from MS to retire on, cause >>>>>>>>>>>they deserve it! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Maybe, Its good for windows users. I hope M$ will replace their creepy >>>>>>>>>>and * taskmanager with Mark's fine process explorer! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Most of those tools reside permantly on my USB drive, especially >>>>>>>>>process explorer. Really handy for nutting out those rouge processes >>>>>>>>>on your brother-in-laws' computer! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Job does make us a good pet, I use to read Mark's explorations about >>>>>>>>>>win* before he joined them, found always quite aggressive while >>>>>>>>>>pointing the bug and malfunctioning. However, things are very >>>>>>>>>>different now! >>>>>>>>>>To feel the difference check this [ >>>>>>>>>>http://www.microsoft.com/technet/technetmag/issues/2007/02/VistaKernel/ >>>>>>>>>>] out , no he does sound like a sales person rather tech specialist. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Microsoft does that to you, mind you, so do most big consulting, >>>>>>>>>enterprise dev companies. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Quote: "In Windows Vista most I/O operations can be canceled, ..." >>>>>>>> ^^^^ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>That begs the question, which ones can't be? As far as I am concerned if >>>>>>>>any machine that runs Windows out here doesn't have a reset button I >>>>>>>>find the place where I can connect one, drill a hole and mount a reset >>>>>>>>button. To make that convenient I've got a small parts bin of push >>>>>>>>buttons here with the correct diameter drill bit right in there :-; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I would assume that critcal transactions such as writes to HDD >>>>>>>(something that can cause corruption) cant be cancelled. I dare say >>>>>>>this is probably transparent to most developers and would probably >>>>>>>only concern kernal mode developers. As the article suggests >>>>>>> >>>>>>>"'In Windows Vista, device drivers easily register for >>>>>>>notification of process terminations and so most of the un-killable >>>>>>>process problems are gone." >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>My experiences point in the other direction. On DOS, there was never any >>>>>>problem to terminate. Ever. In Win 3.2 it was kind of ok, just slower. >>>>>>Everything that followed made it more tricky to terminate a hanging >>>>>>process. IME XP is the worst here, freezing solid about five times a >>>>>>day. CTRL-ALT-DEL ... nada, keeps hanging. Of course, that PC also has >>>>>>the magic hard reset function, works every single time ;-) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Sounds like a PC problem. When ever i hit CTRL-ALT-DEL it works just >>>>>fine. Considering how many PC's I come across i never really have a >>>>>problem. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>No idea how Vista would fare but for now I won't touch that with a 10ft >>>>>>pole. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Vista craps on XP in that respect. I have not come across one >>>>>operation that cannot be cancelled yet. The one that really pissed me >>>>>of in XP was networking, and i reckon that most people would agree. >>>>> >>>>>I found it odd how so many people bag Vista when in fact it works just >>>>>fine. All the complaints I have read tend to stem from the false info >>>>>about DRM and people trying to run software designed in the early >>>>>80's. As for the latter, well NT or XP wasn't any different to Vista >>>>>in that respect. The only issue I have had with Vista was the fact >>>>>that Nero did not work, forcing me to upgrade to Nero7. >>>> >>>> >>>>As for SW from the early 80's there is a lot of that here in my lab. >>>>Mostly SW that simply doesn't come any other way, where the design teams >>>>have disbanded decades ago but where there is no alternative. It must >>>>work, it's required in my case. One example are routines to design wave >>>>digital filters. So if an OS doesn't support this then that OS is off >>>>limits out here until they fix it. >>>> >>>>Not sure about Vistas bloat factor but I've read that it needs at least >>>>512MB of RAM. Well, I am not going to ditch any PC that has less ;-) >>> >>> >>>Well for a start, I wouldn't upgrade to Vista in your situation, but >>>Vista would not stop me buying a new PC. The only reason that I >>>upgraded my main PC is because: a) it was free complimnets of my MSDN >>>subscription b) i write software for a living and I need to keep up to >>>date. >> >> >>Yes, if you write SW you've got to be able to at least test it on the >>newest OS. Plus learn the nasties and pitfalls of it. >> >>This morning I talked with my sister in Europe and she needs a new PC. I >>told her that it's kind of late because over here most can only be >>bought with Vista on there. Which is why I bought one just before the >>Vista release. To my surprise she said that there seems to be an >>increasing number of PCs offered with XP over there. > > > Put it this way, unless you are a hardcore gamer (i dont think the > open source graphic libraries are supported yet), or a hardware > engineer, then Vista will suit your needs just fine.Well, there's more to that. For example, some of the programs for a computer controlled radio (Icom 1500 series) that I need for my job to hunt noise sources supposedly do not work with Vista. Just one example (not a program I need, but similar): http://www.sailcom.co.uk/ Quote: "Mscan Meteo will not work with Miscrosoft Windows Vista" Until remarks like this vanish I won't touch Vista. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
Reply by ●August 22, 20072007-08-22
The Real Andy wrote:> On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 06:40:01 -0400, CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> > wrote: > > >>The Real Andy wrote: >> >>>Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote: >>> >> >>... snip about 160 lines ... >> >>>>This morning I talked with my sister in Europe and she needs a new >>>>PC. I told her that it's kind of late because over here most can >>>>only be bought with Vista on there. Which is why I bought one just >>>>before the Vista release. To my surprise she said that there seems >>>>to be an increasing number of PCs offered with XP over there. >>> >>>Put it this way, unless you are a hardcore gamer (i dont think the >>>open source graphic libraries are supported yet), or a hardware >>>engineer, then Vista will suit your needs just fine. >> >>Please make a practice of snipping material not germane to your >>answer from replies. >> > > > Sorry boss. >Oops. Guilty as well .... -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
Reply by ●August 22, 20072007-08-22
Joerg wrote:> The Real Andy wrote: >... snip 200 or so useless lines ...> >> Put it this way, unless you are a hardcore gamer (i dont think the >> open source graphic libraries are supported yet), or a hardware >> engineer, then Vista will suit your needs just fine. > > Well, there's more to that. For example, some of the programs for a > computer controlled radio (Icom 1500 series) that I need for my job to > hunt noise sources supposedly do not work with Vista. > > Just one example (not a program I need, but similar): > http://www.sailcom.co.uk/ > Quote: "Mscan Meteo will not work with Miscrosoft Windows Vista" > > Until remarks like this vanish I won't touch Vista.Again, why quote all that junk? -- Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Reply by ●August 22, 20072007-08-22
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:19:05 -0700, Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote: 8<>>> >>>This morning I talked with my sister in Europe and she needs a new PC. I >>>told her that it's kind of late because over here most can only be >>>bought with Vista on there. Which is why I bought one just before the >>>Vista release. To my surprise she said that there seems to be an >>>increasing number of PCs offered with XP over there. >> >> >> Put it this way, unless you are a hardcore gamer (i dont think the >> open source graphic libraries are supported yet), or a hardware >> engineer, then Vista will suit your needs just fine. > > >Well, there's more to that. For example, some of the programs for a >computer controlled radio (Icom 1500 series) that I need for my job to >hunt noise sources supposedly do not work with Vista. > >Just one example (not a program I need, but similar): >http://www.sailcom.co.uk/ >Quote: "Mscan Meteo will not work with Miscrosoft Windows Vista"Oh well, his loss.> >Until remarks like this vanish I won't touch Vista.You guys are going to love the next generation of windows, Vienna!
Reply by ●August 22, 20072007-08-22
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:04:55 -0700, Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:>The Real Andy wrote: > > >[...] > >> >> I was a hardware guy, then moved to embedded firmware, now pretty much >> software consulting. I still get the odd maintenance or feature >> addition job with some embedded stuff, but few and far in between. >> > >Once when we had to wait out a major re-boot I had a brief chat about >this kind of migration with one of the SW guys I network with. He said >he used to be a HW engineer but the continuous obsolescence, allocation >and leadtime issues with parts drove him nuts and he switched careers. >Well, at least he still deals with some hardware because he own a large >sea-going sailboat. There, you either develop excellent mechanics skills >or you have to be a millionaire. > >> >>>>As for recompiling dos apps, that is because you are compiling to >>>>native code. If you were to do the same, using a com dll, then you >>>>would NOT be able to run the 2 side by side, you can only replace. >>>>Therefore you get the same issue with backward compatibility. >>> >>> >>>Again, from a layman's perspective I can only say that all the old *.exe >>>files from my wild days will still run just fine. Except the ones with >>>the Borland runtime error but there is a kludge to make those work as >>>well without a re-compile. >>> >>>Besides quality, for us HW guys there are just two states when it comes >>>to SW: It either works or it doesn't. When I get my filter coefficients >>>nicely listed it's working, when I get an error box, well ... ;-) >> >> >> Its the same for me. I am a harsh critic of software dev and tools, >> but this time i think MS have finally got it right. No so much in .net >> 1/1.1, but 2.0 was good. >> > >It would be for me as well but not if a routine that runs fine with 1.1 >refuses to run with 2.0. To me that's a clear sign to stay away. Same >with Vista. I have seen too much SW that I need or may need where there >is a little note about compatibility and this either doesn't mention >Vista or explicitly says it won't work with Vista yet. I'll definitely >wait at least until those problems go away. > > >> What annoys me most is the fact that when i do have to do firmware, >> 90% of the tools that I have to use are from companies that have >> disapearred into the ether. This is why now when i recommend tools I >> will not approve of anything from a 2 man backyard operation. If I >> want firmware tools, I want something that wii still be supported in >> 10years, and for the company to still exist. Furthermore, I expect the >> company to invest in dev and keep the tools up to date. A good recent >> example of this was with Microchip tools. I had an ICE that cost >> thousands of dollars, great tool, company gone. Now I also owned a >> picstart plus programmer - still supported with a simple firmware >> upgrade. Needless to say, the ICE has now been replaced with a >> microchip ICD. >> > >Yep, and the other problem is that sometimes you find a nice product >from a healthy mid-size company but then a major corporate player >swallows them. After that it's a coin toss. In rare circumstances the >product is kept afloat. Many times they ditch it, other times they jack >up the price so much that the product ditches itself.HAd that too. ABout 12 months ago I had to add some features to a piece of hardware. IT uses Kadak amx kernel and the SDS toolcahin. SDS has been swalloed up by someone, then another company. I recall windriver was in there somewhere. Needless to say, i could not buy the tools anymore or licence. I had to steal a copy, then copy the mac address from one network card into another so that it would work. I can still download windows 3.11, even DOS6.1 from MS..
Reply by ●August 22, 20072007-08-22
The Real Andy wrote:>> >>Just one example (not a program I need, but similar): >>http://www.sailcom.co.uk/ >>Quote: "Mscan Meteo will not work with Miscrosoft Windows Vista" > > Oh well, his loss. >Sure but there are programs that are only used in an industrial setting and there the migration path is a whole lot slower. Often those are quite mission critical apps and IMHO there really isn't an excuse for an OS not to be backwards compatible to the version from half a year ago. The designers are supposed to test that.> >>Until remarks like this vanish I won't touch Vista. > > You guys are going to love the next generation of windows, Vienna!I might still be on XP/2000/NT by that time, just like now. Stability is another issue. My wife's PC froze up for the umpteenth time yesterday night and all she does is email. That can be inconvenient when I am on a four-week biz trip. In the DOS days that has never happened. Not once. Hey, Chuck, was this short enough now? Sometimes I am admonished by people because I snipped too much, other times I am told I didn't snip enough .... -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
Reply by ●August 22, 20072007-08-22
Joerg wrote:> The Real Andy wrote: >> >>> Just one example (not a program I need, but similar): >>> http://www.sailcom.co.uk/ >>> Quote: "Mscan Meteo will not work with Miscrosoft Windows Vista" >> >> Oh well, his loss. > > Sure but there are programs that are only used in an industrial setting > and there the migration path is a whole lot slower. Often those are > quite mission critical apps and IMHO there really isn't an excuse for an > OS not to be backwards compatible to the version from half a year ago. > The designers are supposed to test that. > >>> Until remarks like this vanish I won't touch Vista. >> >> You guys are going to love the next generation of windows, Vienna! > > I might still be on XP/2000/NT by that time, just like now. Stability is > another issue. My wife's PC froze up for the umpteenth time yesterday > night and all she does is email. That can be inconvenient when I am on a > four-week biz trip. In the DOS days that has never happened. Not once. > > Hey, Chuck, was this short enough now? Sometimes I am admonished by > people because I snipped too much, other times I am told I didn't snip > enough ....Whee. Note that it is perfectly read (and understand) able. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Reply by ●August 23, 20072007-08-23
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:14:47 -0400, CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> wrote:>Joerg wrote: >> The Real Andy wrote: >> >... snip 200 or so useless lines ... >> >>> Put it this way, unless you are a hardcore gamer (i dont think the >>> open source graphic libraries are supported yet), or a hardware >>> engineer, then Vista will suit your needs just fine. >> >> Well, there's more to that. For example, some of the programs for a >> computer controlled radio (Icom 1500 series) that I need for my job to >> hunt noise sources supposedly do not work with Vista. >> >> Just one example (not a program I need, but similar): >> http://www.sailcom.co.uk/ >> Quote: "Mscan Meteo will not work with Miscrosoft Windows Vista" >> >> Until remarks like this vanish I won't touch Vista. > >Again, why quote all that junk?Why does it matter? If you dont want to read it then DONT. Otherwise dont complain.> >-- > Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net) > Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. > <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
