Re: HC711 pinout

Mike Phillips wrote:
> Mine is the plcc 84.

Yes, I see that you actually posted that information in your
first message. Sorry to overlook that.

> I'm not troubled at all that the onboard connector
> cannot program the chip.

Then I don't understand what your question is. I suggested that
you program the chips before installing them on the board, and
you seemed to reject that.

> I fully expect that a small board will have to be made in order to
> supply the vcc to the at least 3 places on the chip as I recall being
> told. I'd like you to tell me where to find the schematic that shows
> this. Then if you could point me to some software that you like that
> will upload the s19 file into the chip, I'd be all set.

There are three means to program the OTP part, which are detailed
in the PDF file whose URL I posted. One of these is an EPROM
emulation mode (PROG mode), in which it emulates the 27C256
EPROM. The pin assignments for this mode may be found on
page 21. So if you know how to program the 27C256, you can
program this part. The steps necessary to put the chip into
that mode are detailed on page 19, and are MODA/LIR- low,
MODB/Vstby low, RESET- low, PA[2:0] low. The detailed connections
are in Figure 6 on page 21. You should be able to build a little
adaptor which would plug into any 27C256 chip programmer
using that information.

> We ain't sunk yet!

Apparently not, if you're willing to do what I suggested before:
Program before putting into circuit.

Mike
--
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that! Start a New Thread

Mike,

We just aren't communicating, but we are on the same page. I have
always known that we probably had to program off of the main board. So
no, it's not rejected at all.

I don't know how to program a 27C256. So I'll try and find the diagram
you mentioned and see what I see. I was thinking I need to make a board
with a plcc84 socket and a db9 connector for the laptop for just this
part.

Mike

--- Mike McCarty wrote:

> Mike Phillips wrote:
> > Mine is the plcc 84.
>
> Yes, I see that you actually posted that information in your
> first message. Sorry to overlook that.
>
> > I'm not troubled at all that the onboard connector
> > cannot program the chip.
>
> Then I don't understand what your question is. I suggested that
> you program the chips before installing them on the board, and
> you seemed to reject that.
>
> > I fully expect that a small board will have to be made in order to
> > supply the vcc to the at least 3 places on the chip as I recall
> being
> > told. I'd like you to tell me where to find the schematic that
> shows
> > this. Then if you could point me to some software that you like
> that
> > will upload the s19 file into the chip, I'd be all set.
>
> There are three means to program the OTP part, which are detailed
> in the PDF file whose URL I posted. One of these is an EPROM
> emulation mode (PROG mode), in which it emulates the 27C256
> EPROM. The pin assignments for this mode may be found on
> page 21. So if you know how to program the 27C256, you can
> program this part. The steps necessary to put the chip into
> that mode are detailed on page 19, and are MODA/LIR- low,
> MODB/Vstby low, RESET- low, PA[2:0] low. The detailed connections
> are in Figure 6 on page 21. You should be able to build a little
> adaptor which would plug into any 27C256 chip programmer
> using that information.
>
> > We ain't sunk yet!
>
> Apparently not, if you're willing to do what I suggested before:
> Program before putting into circuit.
>
> Mike
> --
> p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
> This message made from 100% recycled bits.
> You have found the bank of Larn.
> I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
> I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!

www.RotorDesign.com Start a New Thread

I have a feeling that there was a problem with the 27C256 emulation
method of programming and that it was withdrawn but I do not have any
references to confirm this.

I have had a couple of systems running using the MC68HC11K1 with an
external flash chip for program storage. This is programmed on board
using the HC11 in its special bootstrap mode where a small program is
loaded into RAM which, in turn loads a flash-burning utility into
on-board external RAM to carry out the programming.
I expect that the PDF document also details this sot of method even if
it does not give you a suitable program to load into RAM and burn the
on-board EPROM.
The process is something like:
Bring up the processor in the bootstap mode with the programming voltage
available
Transmit the programming utility. It starts automatically
Transmit the S-record file at an appropriate speed while it is being
programmed into EPROM.
If the program contains a verification step, invoke it and re-send the
S-record file to check that it has been programmed correctly.

Mike Phillips wrote:
> Mike,
>
> We just aren't communicating, but we are on the same page. I have
> always known that we probably had to program off of the main board. So
> no, it's not rejected at all.
>
> I don't know how to program a 27C256. So I'll try and find the diagram
> you mentioned and see what I see. I was thinking I need to make a board
> with a plcc84 socket and a db9 connector for the laptop for just this
> part.
>
> Mike
>
> --- Mike McCarty > > wrote:
>
> > Mike Phillips wrote:
> > > Mine is the plcc 84.
> >
> > Yes, I see that you actually posted that information in your
> > first message. Sorry to overlook that.
> >
> > > I'm not troubled at all that the onboard connector
> > > cannot program the chip.
> >
> > Then I don't understand what your question is. I suggested that
> > you program the chips before installing them on the board, and
> > you seemed to reject that.
> >
> > > I fully expect that a small board will have to be made in order to
> > > supply the vcc to the at least 3 places on the chip as I recall
> > being
> > > told. I'd like you to tell me where to find the schematic that
> > shows
> > > this. Then if you could point me to some software that you like
> > that
> > > will upload the s19 file into the chip, I'd be all set.
> >
> > There are three means to program the OTP part, which are detailed
> > in the PDF file whose URL I posted. One of these is an EPROM
> > emulation mode (PROG mode), in which it emulates the 27C256
> > EPROM. The pin assignments for this mode may be found on
> > page 21. So if you know how to program the 27C256, you can
> > program this part. The steps necessary to put the chip into
> > that mode are detailed on page 19, and are MODA/LIR- low,
> > MODB/Vstby low, RESET- low, PA[2:0] low. The detailed connections
> > are in Figure 6 on page 21. You should be able to build a little
> > adaptor which would plug into any 27C256 chip programmer
> > using that information.
> >
---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 0633-1, 15/08/2006
Tested on: 16/08/2006 5:25:17 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com Start a New Thread

Robert Mitchell wrote:
> I have a feeling that there was a problem with the 27C256 emulation
> method of programming and that it was withdrawn but I do not have any
> references to confirm this.

I have no experience with this.

> I have had a couple of systems running using the MC68HC11K1 with an
> external flash chip for program storage. This is programmed on board
> using the HC11 in its special bootstrap mode where a small program is
> loaded into RAM which, in turn loads a flash-burning utility into
> on-board external RAM to carry out the programming.
> I expect that the PDF document also details this sot of method even if
> it does not give you a suitable program to load into RAM and burn the
> on-board EPROM.

The document I gave the URL for details three methods. The one which
looked easiest for someone not experienced with the '11 family seemed
to be the one I mentioned, the EPROM emulation. The processor also has
a built-in program which can burn the EPROM.

I am not an expert with this chip, however this is how I interpret the
PDF...

> The process is something like:
> Bring up the processor in the bootstap mode with the programming voltage
> available

Either special boot or special test may be used.

> Transmit the programming utility. It starts automatically

To do this, he would have to write his own utility. The instructions
to do this exist in the PDF, but this requires him to learn how
to program the '11. To use the built-in ROM program...

Transmit a three-byte program which jumps to the ROM utility to
burn EPROM. This utility is located at $BF00. Wait for $FF from
the SCI indicating that the utility is running.

> Transmit the S-record file at an appropriate speed while it is being
> programmed into EPROM.

Transmit the raw bytes to the in ROM utility, with 2ms between bytes to
allow programming time.

These details are on pages 18-19 of the PDF.

Mike
--
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that! Start a New Thread

Robert, Mike,

Roberts steps sound alot like what I have heard happens from a fellow
who has done this already. Too bad he doesn't like to share.

After the main program is installed, there is also some part of the
hc711k4 that holds some kind of group of what the original vendor
called constants and variables. These can be reset somehow if any of
them are changed to an out of range pcondition that makes the processor
goes into some kind of safe mode. Sorry I cannot be more specific.

The other thing I heard is there is an app note with a schematic on it
that shows the hand full of parts needed to make the plcc 84 version
able to be programmed. I look over every pdf file I run across but this
schematic eludes me.

Mike P.

--- Robert Mitchell wrote:

> I have a feeling that there was a problem with the 27C256 emulation
> method of programming and that it was withdrawn but I do not have any
>
> references to confirm this.
>
> I have had a couple of systems running using the MC68HC11K1 with an
> external flash chip for program storage. This is programmed on board
> using the HC11 in its special bootstrap mode where a small program is
>
> loaded into RAM which, in turn loads a flash-burning utility into
> on-board external RAM to carry out the programming.
> I expect that the PDF document also details this sot of method even
> if
> it does not give you a suitable program to load into RAM and burn the
>
> on-board EPROM.
> The process is something like:
> Bring up the processor in the bootstap mode with the programming
> voltage
> available
> Transmit the programming utility. It starts automatically
> Transmit the S-record file at an appropriate speed while it is being
> programmed into EPROM.
> If the program contains a verification step, invoke it and re-send
> the
> S-record file to check that it has been programmed correctly.
>
> Mike Phillips wrote:
> >
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > We just aren't communicating, but we are on the same page. I have
> > always known that we probably had to program off of the main board.
> So
> > no, it's not rejected at all.
> >
> > I don't know how to program a 27C256. So I'll try and find the
> diagram
> > you mentioned and see what I see. I was thinking I need to make a
> board
> > with a plcc84 socket and a db9 connector for the laptop for just
> this
> > part.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > --- Mike McCarty > > > wrote:
> >
> > > Mike Phillips wrote:
> > > > Mine is the plcc 84.
> > >
> > > Yes, I see that you actually posted that information in your
> > > first message. Sorry to overlook that.
> > >
> > > > I'm not troubled at all that the onboard connector
> > > > cannot program the chip.
> > >
> > > Then I don't understand what your question is. I suggested that
> > > you program the chips before installing them on the board, and
> > > you seemed to reject that.
> > >
> > > > I fully expect that a small board will have to be made in
> order to
> > > > supply the vcc to the at least 3 places on the chip as I
> recall
> > > being
> > > > told. I'd like you to tell me where to find the schematic that
> > > shows
> > > > this. Then if you could point me to some software that you
> like
> > > that
> > > > will upload the s19 file into the chip, I'd be all set.
> > >
> > > There are three means to program the OTP part, which are
> detailed
> > > in the PDF file whose URL I posted. One of these is an EPROM
> > > emulation mode (PROG mode), in which it emulates the 27C256
> > > EPROM. The pin assignments for this mode may be found on
> > > page 21. So if you know how to program the 27C256, you can
> > > program this part. The steps necessary to put the chip into
> > > that mode are detailed on page 19, and are MODA/LIR- low,
> > > MODB/Vstby low, RESET- low, PA[2:0] low. The detailed
> connections
> > > are in Figure 6 on page 21. You should be able to build a little
> > > adaptor which would plug into any 27C256 chip programmer
> > > using that information.
> > >
> ---
> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
> Virus Database (VPS): 0633-1, 15/08/2006
> Tested on: 16/08/2006 5:25:17 PM
> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software.
> http://www.avast.com Start a New Thread

Mike Phillips wrote:
> Robert, Mike,
>
> Roberts steps sound alot like what I have heard happens from a fellow
> who has done this already. Too bad he doesn't like to share.

It seems to me that he was writing something off the top of his
head. I didn't get the idea he was concealing anything.

> After the main program is installed, there is also some part of the
> hc711k4 that holds some kind of group of what the original vendor
> called constants and variables. These can be reset somehow if any of
> them are changed to an out of range pcondition that makes the processor
> goes into some kind of safe mode. Sorry I cannot be more specific.

I'm not familiar with this. What you describe sounds like having
security enabled. There is EEPROM on that chip. If the chip comes
out of reset in SPECIAL BOOT mode, and the security bit is set,
then the EEPROM is cleared. This doesn't make the processor useless.
Also, an OTP part will not come with the security bit set.

> The other thing I heard is there is an app note with a schematic on it
> that shows the hand full of parts needed to make the plcc 84 version
> able to be programmed. I look over every pdf file I run across but this
> schematic eludes me.

May I make a suggestion? I suggest that you read the section on
programming the EPROM in that PDF file at the URL I gave you.
After you read that, then you can ask intelligent questions, and
won't be relying on a fuzzy memory of a vague statement which
you may have heard from someone who saw someone else use the
chip.

At the very least, you should be able to know what it is that
you don't know, and have some vocabulary to talk about it.

Mike
--
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that! Start a New Thread

Holy Cow Mike!

Some of these HC11 pdf files are hundreds of pages of Greek!!!!

I came to this group looking for help. Clearly, I'm not a processor
guy. Never claimed to be. What I'm telling you is what little info I
was given. You are too close to this skill to see what I see. I don't
understand much of it. So I have to rely on you and others to take
what I say and translate it into your own lingo. If it's that annoying
just tell me. I'll bug out of here. But this is a real need by a whole
group of people who have spent thousands buying these vehicles not
knowing about the poor R & D testing that the manufacturer did. So
here I am, an R & D guy, busting my butt every free hour I have to
keep more of these boards from dying and resurrecting the ones that
have died.

1) There is an app note with a schematic in it for allowing the
processor to be accessed in at least 2 ways. I may have even seen it.
I can fab my own board from this schematic.

2) There is some brand of software out there that will allow me to
burn code into my processor and fix the constants when they get
screwed up. Constant is what the mfr calls it. I need this groups
input on which software app to buy.

These are the 2 things I need. If I'm stil welcome here, then I want
help finding these 2 items.

Mike

>
> May I make a suggestion? I suggest that you read the section on
> programming the EPROM in that PDF file at the URL I gave you.
> After you read that, then you can ask intelligent questions, and
> won't be relying on a fuzzy memory of a vague statement which
> you may have heard from someone who saw someone else use the
> chip.
>
> At the very least, you should be able to know what it is that
> you don't know, and have some vocabulary to talk about it.
>
> Mike
> --
> p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
> This message made from 100% recycled bits.
> You have found the bank of Larn.
> I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
> I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
> Start a New Thread

Mike Phillips wrote:
> Holy Cow Mike!
>
> Some of these HC11 pdf files are hundreds of pages of Greek!!!!

Well, perhaps hundreds of pages of Geek :-)

I suggested that you read (3) three (3) pages. Three.

> I came to this group looking for help. Clearly, I'm not a processor
> guy. Never claimed to be. What I'm telling you is what little info I

Fine, you're not uController proficient. But you are not using all
the info you've been given.

> was given. You are too close to this skill to see what I see. I don't
> understand much of it. So I have to rely on you and others to take
> what I say and translate it into your own lingo. If it's that annoying
> just tell me. I'll bug out of here. But this is a real need by a whole

No, that's not annoying. What's annoying is having suggestions rejected,
then hearing complaints about not getting help. I'm very familiar with
the MC68HC11 processors. I'm not expert with the K family specific
features. I've never programmed an OTP part like this, either.

> group of people who have spent thousands buying these vehicles not
> knowing about the poor R & D testing that the manufacturer did. So
> here I am, an R & D guy, busting my butt every free hour I have to
> keep more of these boards from dying and resurrecting the ones that
> have died.

Ok, fair enough. You are a nice guy.

But itt's *your* problem, and not mine. I'm willing
to help. But you have to pull your own weight. Otherwise, why not
just ask someone else to do all the work for you as a charity effort?

I'm sympathetic, and willing to help those who are expending their
maximum effort. But when I do projects for somebody else for no pay
I do them on my terms. This isn't my project. If you want me to do
the research for you, then I will. But I get *paid* for doing
other people's work for them. I've expended some effort on your
behalf, and requested in turn that you read three pages of a document,
spend some time thinking and trying to understand, then come back
with questions or requests for explanations or clarification.
I think that this is a reasonable request.

> 1) There is an app note with a schematic in it for allowing the
> processor to be accessed in at least 2 ways. I may have even seen it.
> I can fab my own board from this schematic.

Ok, this is something you know that I do not.

> 2) There is some brand of software out there that will allow me to
> burn code into my processor and fix the constants when they get
> screwed up. Constant is what the mfr calls it. I need this groups
> input on which software app to buy.

Yes, there is. Two versions are described on the pages I mentioned
in the PDF document you have a copy of. How about reading that
description, which is better written than one I could write,
and then ask questions about what you don't understand.

> These are the 2 things I need. If I'm stil welcome here, then I want
> help finding these 2 items.

Of course you're still welcome. AFAIK, nobody is angry at anybody.
Google is your friend.
If you can't find it, then why do you suppose that I can?

The document describes three basic approaches to programming that
part. Here's the part of the document I asked you to read and
try to understand. Now, step one: let's read that text (not too hard)
and try to understand what it means to you in this context, and pick
one of the methods to try. Only when that is done can we
begin to design circuitry.

Method 1: Normal Programming.

You write a program which you load into the uController using any
means available to you. This program follows these steps:

[QUOTE MODE ON]

1. Set the ELAT bit in EPROG register. EELAT bit in PPROG must be
cleared as it$function of the ELAT bit.

2. Write data to the desired address.

3. Turn on programming voltage to the EPROM array by setting the EPGM
bit in EPROG register.

4. Delay for 2 ms or more, as appropriate.

5. Clear the EPGM bit in EPROG to turn off the programming voltage.

INIT RAM and Register Mapping $003D
Bit 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 Bit 0
RAM3 RAM2 RAM1 RAM0 REG3 REG2 REG1 REG0
RESET: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

6. Clear the EPROG register to reconfigure the EPROM address and data
buses for normal operation.

Method 2: EPROM Emulation Mode

In EPROM emulation mode (PROG mode), the EPROM/OTPROM is programmed as a
stand-alone EPROM by adapting the MCU footprint to the 27C256-type EPROM
and using an appropriate EPROM programmer. To put the MCU in PROG mode,
pull the following pins low: MODA/LIR, MODB/VSTBY, RESET, PA[2:0]. Refer
to Figure 6.
Method 3:

In the third method, the EPROM is programmed by software while in the
special test or bootstrap modes. User-developed software can be uploaded
through the SCI, or a ROM resident EPROM programming utility can be
used. To use the resident utility, bootload a three-byte program
consisting of a single jump instruction to $BF00. $BF00 is the starting
address of a resident EPROM programming utility. The utility program

[QUOTE MODE OFF]

The utility program presumably uses the steps detailed above in
Method 1 Normal Programming to do the work for you. The EPROM
emulation looks to me to be the simplest, supposing it works.
The circuit diagram for that is shown in Figure 6, if you would
just go look at it. (You requested that such a circuit be found,
a few times now, and I've told you now three times at least
that I have already found you one, but you won't go look.)

Anyway, read that text, and try to understand what it means
for you. Methods 1 and 3 require that you learn how to write
a program and upload it, and design a minimal circuit which
can cause the uController to boot and talk via its serial
interface. Method 3 requires a simpler circuit (schematic in
Figure 6), and an EPROM programmer which can program 27C256 EPROMS.
Which method looks best for you?

Mike
--
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that! Start a New Thread

Maybe a good plan B is just give up on the OTP HC711s and make a little adapter board to go from the PLCC socket to a tech arts microstamp 20 pin header. Those have flash rom on them and can be programmed from a serial port. You only have the rom image, not the source code, correct?

-----Original Message-----
From: m...@yahoo.com
To: m...
Sent: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 11:54 AM
Subject: [m68HC11] Re: HC711 pinout

Holy Cow Mike!

Some of these HC11 pdf files are hundreds of pages of Greek!!!!

I came to this group looking for help. Clearly, I'm not a processor
guy. Never claimed to be. What I'm telling you is what little info I
was given. You are too close to this skill to see what I see. I don't
understand much of it. So I have to rely on you and others to take
what I say and translate it into your own lingo. If it's that annoying
just tell me. I'll bug out of here. But this is a real need by a whole
group of people who have spent thousands buying these vehicles not
knowing about the poor R & D testing that the manufacturer did. So
here I am, an R & D guy, busting my butt every free hour I have to
keep more of these boards from dying and resurrecting the ones that
have died.

1) There is an app note with a schematic in it for allowing the
processor to be accessed in at least 2 ways. I may have even seen it.
I can fab my own board from this schematic.

2) There is some brand of software out there that will allow me to
burn code into my processor and fix the constants when they get
screwed up. Constant is what the mfr calls it. I need this groups
input on which software app to buy.

These are the 2 things I need. If I'm stil welcome here, then I want
help finding these 2 items.

Mike

>
> May I make a suggestion? I suggest that you read the section on
> programming the EPROM in that PDF file at the URL I gave you.
> After you read that, then you can ask intelligent questions, and
> won't be relying on a fuzzy memory of a vague statement which
> you may have heard from someone who saw someone else use the
> chip.
>
> At the very least, you should be able to know what it is that
> you don't know, and have some vocabulary to talk about it.
>
> Mike
> --
> p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
> This message made from 100% recycled bits.
> You have found the bank of Larn.
> I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
> I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
> Start a New Thread

I have the S19 file. Not sure if that's rom or source code.

Mike
--- B...@aol.com wrote:

> Maybe a good plan B is just give up on the OTP HC711s and make a
> little adapter board to go from the PLCC socket to a tech arts
> microstamp 20 pin header. Those have flash rom on them and can be
> programmed from a serial port. You only have the rom image, not the
> source code, correct?
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: m...@yahoo.com
> To: m...
> Sent: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 11:54 AM
> Subject: [m68HC11] Re: HC711 pinout
>
> Holy Cow Mike!
>
> Some of these HC11 pdf files are hundreds of pages of Greek!!!!
>
> I came to this group looking for help. Clearly, I'm not a processor
> guy. Never claimed to be. What I'm telling you is what little info I
> was given. You are too close to this skill to see what I see. I don't
> understand much of it. So I have to rely on you and others to take
> what I say and translate it into your own lingo. If it's that
> annoying
> just tell me. I'll bug out of here. But this is a real need by a
> whole
> group of people who have spent thousands buying these vehicles not
> knowing about the poor R & D testing that the manufacturer did. So
> here I am, an R & D guy, busting my butt every free hour I have to
> keep more of these boards from dying and resurrecting the ones that
> have died.
>
> 1) There is an app note with a schematic in it for allowing the
> processor to be accessed in at least 2 ways. I may have even seen it.
> I can fab my own board from this schematic.
>
> 2) There is some brand of software out there that will allow me to
> burn code into my processor and fix the constants when they get
> screwed up. Constant is what the mfr calls it. I need this groups
> input on which software app to buy.
>
> These are the 2 things I need. If I'm stil welcome here, then I want
> help finding these 2 items.
>
> Mike
>
> >
> > May I make a suggestion? I suggest that you read the section on
> > programming the EPROM in that PDF file at the URL I gave you.
> > After you read that, then you can ask intelligent questions, and
> > won't be relying on a fuzzy memory of a vague statement which
> > you may have heard from someone who saw someone else use the
> > chip.
> >
> > At the very least, you should be able to know what it is that
> > you don't know, and have some vocabulary to talk about it.
> >
> > Mike
> > --
> > p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
> > This message made from 100% recycled bits.
> > You have found the bank of Larn.
> > I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
> > I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
> >
>
> Start a New Thread