> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 21:01:04 -0500
> From: Sean <embeddedrelated@embe...>
> I have seen a lot of talk around about
Wiggler-based JTAG
> debugger boards, which can be built for < $1, and I see several
> commercial JTAG debugging pods that are > $1000. What is it that
> these things do that you can't do with a simple wiggler
> interface?
Warning: Response from JTAG vendor: See
http://www.mpeforth.com/jtagwidget.htm
which is designed for hardwaare bring-up as well as software
debugging.
There are three aspects to consider:
connection to PC host
connection to ARM target
software
Host Connection
===============
The host connection in rough order of performance and cost is
PC parallel port
USB
dedicated PCI card
Some parallel port interfaces are powered from the parallel
port. Without great care in component selection and PC layout
these can be unreliable. We have several, some work well, some
don't.
USB interfaces can draw power from the USB port. In general,
these are the most convenient for site use. But the hardware is
more expensive and software is required, probably both on the PC
and on the JTAG adaptor. Software costs.
PCI interfaces will give the highest performance, but are
usually only found on dedicated testers.
ARM target connection
=====================
As the JTAG speed increases, you need to be more careful with
drive levels, cable length and cable impedances. We do not use a
cheap HC244, we use a real level shifter on the JTAG side. It's
rated to below 1.8 volts. Similarly, the lifetime and cost of a
good quality 3M connector is much higher than that of a generic
20 pin connector.
Software
========
Once you move away from the parallel port connection, you'll
most likely have to write software for the adaptor as well as
for the PC.
Conclusion
==========
Better (performance, reliability ...) JTAG debuggers require
more work, which has to be paid for somehow or other. Technical
support costs time/money too. There's a lot more to ARM JTAG
debuggers than at first meets the eye.
Stephen
--
Stephen Pelc, stephen@step...
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 23 80 631441, fax: +44 23 80 339691
web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads
JTAG debugging options
Started by ●January 2, 2006
Reply by ●January 3, 20062006-01-03
Reply by ●January 3, 20062006-01-03
--- In lpc2000@lpc2..., "Stephen Pelc" <stephen@m...>
wrote:
>
>
> Warning: Response from JTAG vendor: See
> http://www.mpeforth.com/jtagwidget.htm
> which is designed for hardwaare bring-up as well as software
> debugging.
>
> There are three aspects to consider:
> connection to PC host
> connection to ARM target
> software
>
> Host Connection
> ===============
> The host connection in rough order of performance and cost is
> PC parallel port
> USB
> dedicated PCI card
> Some parallel port interfaces are powered from the parallel
> port. Without great care in component selection and PC layout
> these can be unreliable. We have several, some work well, some
> don't.
>
> USB interfaces can draw power from the USB port. In general,
> these are the most convenient for site use. But the hardware is
> more expensive and software is required, probably both on the PC
> and on the JTAG adaptor. Software costs.
>
> PCI interfaces will give the highest performance, but are
> usually only found on dedicated testers.
>
> ARM target connection
> =====================
> As the JTAG speed increases, you need to be more careful with
> drive levels, cable length and cable impedances. We do not use a
> cheap HC244, we use a real level shifter on the JTAG side. It's
> rated to below 1.8 volts. Similarly, the lifetime and cost of a
> good quality 3M connector is much higher than that of a generic
> 20 pin connector.
>
> Software
> ========
> Once you move away from the parallel port connection, you'll
> most likely have to write software for the adaptor as well as
> for the PC.
>
> Conclusion
> ==========
> Better (performance, reliability ...) JTAG debuggers require
> more work, which has to be paid for somehow or other. Technical
> support costs time/money too. There's a lot more to ARM JTAG
> debuggers than at first meets the eye.
>
> Stephen
>
> --
> Stephen Pelc, stephen@m...
> MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
> 133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
> tel: +44 23 80 631441, fax: +44 23 80 339691
> web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads
>
Nice analysis, Stephen.
I just wanted to note that you left out my favorite as the most
powerful of the JTAG to workstation connection methods.
Ethernet!!!!
The Lauterbach Trace32 Ethernet is the fastest and most powerful of
all the JTAG setups that I have used, and extremely expensive. :-(
One big advantage of Ethernet, is that the workstation and the debug
target do not have to be in the same location. Of course, it is not as
fast over the Internet as it is with a direct local connection. :-)
Care to give them some competition in that arena? :-)
-- Dave
>
>
> Warning: Response from JTAG vendor: See
> http://www.mpeforth.com/jtagwidget.htm
> which is designed for hardwaare bring-up as well as software
> debugging.
>
> There are three aspects to consider:
> connection to PC host
> connection to ARM target
> software
>
> Host Connection
> ===============
> The host connection in rough order of performance and cost is
> PC parallel port
> USB
> dedicated PCI card
> Some parallel port interfaces are powered from the parallel
> port. Without great care in component selection and PC layout
> these can be unreliable. We have several, some work well, some
> don't.
>
> USB interfaces can draw power from the USB port. In general,
> these are the most convenient for site use. But the hardware is
> more expensive and software is required, probably both on the PC
> and on the JTAG adaptor. Software costs.
>
> PCI interfaces will give the highest performance, but are
> usually only found on dedicated testers.
>
> ARM target connection
> =====================
> As the JTAG speed increases, you need to be more careful with
> drive levels, cable length and cable impedances. We do not use a
> cheap HC244, we use a real level shifter on the JTAG side. It's
> rated to below 1.8 volts. Similarly, the lifetime and cost of a
> good quality 3M connector is much higher than that of a generic
> 20 pin connector.
>
> Software
> ========
> Once you move away from the parallel port connection, you'll
> most likely have to write software for the adaptor as well as
> for the PC.
>
> Conclusion
> ==========
> Better (performance, reliability ...) JTAG debuggers require
> more work, which has to be paid for somehow or other. Technical
> support costs time/money too. There's a lot more to ARM JTAG
> debuggers than at first meets the eye.
>
> Stephen
>
> --
> Stephen Pelc, stephen@m...
> MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
> 133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
> tel: +44 23 80 631441, fax: +44 23 80 339691
> web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads
>
Nice analysis, Stephen.
I just wanted to note that you left out my favorite as the most
powerful of the JTAG to workstation connection methods.
Ethernet!!!!
The Lauterbach Trace32 Ethernet is the fastest and most powerful of
all the JTAG setups that I have used, and extremely expensive. :-(
One big advantage of Ethernet, is that the workstation and the debug
target do not have to be in the same location. Of course, it is not as
fast over the Internet as it is with a direct local connection. :-)
Care to give them some competition in that arena? :-)
-- Dave
Reply by ●January 3, 20062006-01-03
> We need two things. A reasonably priced USB JTAG debugger supported
> by a true "open-source" GDB/JTAG driver. Until then, the debugging
> situation will remain tenuous, at best (for those on limited
> budgets).
>
> Cheers,
> James P. Lynch
>
I posted a question re: using Insight under Linux on the Sparkfun
Forum. I received this site as a reply: http://openocd.berlios.de/web/
This may be a HUGE step in the right direction.
Richard
> by a true "open-source" GDB/JTAG driver. Until then, the debugging
> situation will remain tenuous, at best (for those on limited
> budgets).
>
> Cheers,
> James P. Lynch
>
I posted a question re: using Insight under Linux on the Sparkfun
Forum. I received this site as a reply: http://openocd.berlios.de/web/
This may be a HUGE step in the right direction.
Richard
Reply by ●January 3, 20062006-01-03
>
> Well then, if you want to do non-trivial debugging, you'll certainly
> hate Insight->OCD Remote->Wiggler clone. As James Lynch points out
> in his excellent tutorial, there are days when it just won't work.
> To be blunt, it sucks. It isn't worth the aggravation to get it
> working; printf works better.
>
> Now, Tom Walsh is more than happy with his high dollar solution
> (Abatron BDI2000) and if I were doing this for money, I would buy
> the same interface he has. If I could find a distributor in the
> US...
>
> And, if the US$ wasn't complete worthless when converted to British
> Pounds, I might consider the Rowley CrossConnect package.
> If I could find a distributor in the US...
Try Ultimate Solutions ...
http://www.ultsol.com
I requested a quote for PowerPC 4xx and ARM development ...
BDI2000+bdiGDB PPC4xx $2570
bdiGDB for ARM7/9/9E $1000
I just have to figure out how to get that passed the guys with
the money ...
Dave
Reply by ●January 3, 20062006-01-03
David Hawkins wrote:
>
>
>>Well then, if you want to do non-trivial debugging, you'll certainly
>>hate Insight->OCD Remote->Wiggler clone. As James Lynch points out
>>in his excellent tutorial, there are days when it just won't work.
>>To be blunt, it sucks. It isn't worth the aggravation to get it
>>working; printf works better.
>>
>>Now, Tom Walsh is more than happy with his high dollar solution
>>(Abatron BDI2000) and if I were doing this for money, I would buy
>>the same interface he has. If I could find a distributor in the
>>US...
>>
>>And, if the US$ wasn't complete worthless when converted to British
>>Pounds, I might consider the Rowley CrossConnect package.
>>
>>
>
> > If I could find a distributor in the US...
>
>Try Ultimate Solutions ...
>
>http://www.ultsol.com
>
>I requested a quote for PowerPC 4xx and ARM development ...
>
>BDI2000+bdiGDB PPC4xx $2570
>bdiGDB for ARM7/9/9E $1000 >
Interesting. I got the BDI2000+bdiGDB option for the ARM7/9/9E for the
same price. I suspect that the config files are all that is different
between the models. I'm still not sure what that "bdiGDB" is all about...
TomW
--
Tom Walsh - WN3L - Embedded Systems Consultant
http://openhardware.net, http://cyberiansoftware.com
"Windows? No thanks, I have work to do..."
----------------
>
>
>>Well then, if you want to do non-trivial debugging, you'll certainly
>>hate Insight->OCD Remote->Wiggler clone. As James Lynch points out
>>in his excellent tutorial, there are days when it just won't work.
>>To be blunt, it sucks. It isn't worth the aggravation to get it
>>working; printf works better.
>>
>>Now, Tom Walsh is more than happy with his high dollar solution
>>(Abatron BDI2000) and if I were doing this for money, I would buy
>>the same interface he has. If I could find a distributor in the
>>US...
>>
>>And, if the US$ wasn't complete worthless when converted to British
>>Pounds, I might consider the Rowley CrossConnect package.
>>
>>
>
> > If I could find a distributor in the US...
>
>Try Ultimate Solutions ...
>
>http://www.ultsol.com
>
>I requested a quote for PowerPC 4xx and ARM development ...
>
>BDI2000+bdiGDB PPC4xx $2570
>bdiGDB for ARM7/9/9E $1000 >
Interesting. I got the BDI2000+bdiGDB option for the ARM7/9/9E for the
same price. I suspect that the config files are all that is different
between the models. I'm still not sure what that "bdiGDB" is all about...
TomW
--
Tom Walsh - WN3L - Embedded Systems Consultant
http://openhardware.net, http://cyberiansoftware.com
"Windows? No thanks, I have work to do..."
----------------
Reply by ●January 3, 20062006-01-03
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
rtstofer wrote:
>> We need two things. A reasonably priced USB JTAG debugger supported
>> by a true "open-source" GDB/JTAG driver. Until then, the debugging
>> situation will remain tenuous, at best (for those on limited
>> budgets).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> James P. Lynch
>>
>
> I posted a question re: using Insight under Linux on the Sparkfun
> Forum. I received this site as a reply: http://openocd.berlios.de/web/
>
> This may be a HUGE step in the right direction.
I played around with this in the past week and I think this is the
most promising open-source ARM7 JTAG project.
The source code looks well organised and extensible.
The latest version (download with subversion) is now able to run
under windows (with cygwin), it supports the ARM7TDMI-S micro and
works with various type of JTAG cables (parallel port and USB).
It successfully stepped through some simple programs in both
gdb and insight.
Kind regards,
Bertrik
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Hash: SHA1
rtstofer wrote:
>> We need two things. A reasonably priced USB JTAG debugger supported
>> by a true "open-source" GDB/JTAG driver. Until then, the debugging
>> situation will remain tenuous, at best (for those on limited
>> budgets).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> James P. Lynch
>>
>
> I posted a question re: using Insight under Linux on the Sparkfun
> Forum. I received this site as a reply: http://openocd.berlios.de/web/
>
> This may be a HUGE step in the right direction.
I played around with this in the past week and I think this is the
most promising open-source ARM7 JTAG project.
The source code looks well organised and extensible.
The latest version (download with subversion) is now able to run
under windows (with cygwin), it supports the ARM7TDMI-S micro and
works with various type of JTAG cables (parallel port and USB).
It successfully stepped through some simple programs in both
gdb and insight.
Kind regards,
Bertrik
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Reply by ●January 4, 20062006-01-04
From: "derbaier" <dershu@ders...>
> I just wanted to note that you left out my favorite as the most
> powerful of the JTAG to workstation connection methods.
>
> Ethernet!!!!
>
> The Lauterbach Trace32 Ethernet is the fastest and most powerful
> of all the JTAG setups that I have used, and extremely expensive.
> :-(
>
> One big advantage of Ethernet, is that the workstation and the
> debug target do not have to be in the same location. Of course,
> it is not as fast over the Internet as it is with a direct local
> connection. :-)
>
> Care to give them some competition in that arena? :-)
How many would you like?
We did consider Ethernet, but USB is much more convenient for
site work. It may become an option ...
Stephen
--
Stephen Pelc, stephen@step...
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 23 80 631441, fax: +44 23 80 339691
web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads
> I just wanted to note that you left out my favorite as the most
> powerful of the JTAG to workstation connection methods.
>
> Ethernet!!!!
>
> The Lauterbach Trace32 Ethernet is the fastest and most powerful
> of all the JTAG setups that I have used, and extremely expensive.
> :-(
>
> One big advantage of Ethernet, is that the workstation and the
> debug target do not have to be in the same location. Of course,
> it is not as fast over the Internet as it is with a direct local
> connection. :-)
>
> Care to give them some competition in that arena? :-)
How many would you like?
We did consider Ethernet, but USB is much more convenient for
site work. It may become an option ...
Stephen
--
Stephen Pelc, stephen@step...
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 23 80 631441, fax: +44 23 80 339691
web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads
Reply by ●January 4, 20062006-01-04
--- In lpc2000@lpc2..., "Stephen Pelc" <stephen@m...>
wrote:
>
>
> How many would you like?
>
> We did consider Ethernet, but USB is much more convenient for
> site work. It may become an option ...
>
> Stephen
>
> --
> Stephen Pelc, stephen@m...
> MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
> 133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
> tel: +44 23 80 631441, fax: +44 23 80 339691
> web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads
>
I get your point! :-)
Unfortunately I am no longer in a position to influence the purchase
of debug hardware, since I am recently retired. My former employer
bought large numbers of the Ethernet debuggers that I was refering to,
and we found the Ethernet connection to be very very handy. The
ability to debug from a distance was a highly used feature in that
work environment.
I don't think that it would all that difficult to enable remote
debugging using USB as long as a local workstation was available to
act as the local USB connection to the target?
Thanks for the reply!
-- Dave
>
>
> How many would you like?
>
> We did consider Ethernet, but USB is much more convenient for
> site work. It may become an option ...
>
> Stephen
>
> --
> Stephen Pelc, stephen@m...
> MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
> 133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
> tel: +44 23 80 631441, fax: +44 23 80 339691
> web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads
>
I get your point! :-)
Unfortunately I am no longer in a position to influence the purchase
of debug hardware, since I am recently retired. My former employer
bought large numbers of the Ethernet debuggers that I was refering to,
and we found the Ethernet connection to be very very handy. The
ability to debug from a distance was a highly used feature in that
work environment.
I don't think that it would all that difficult to enable remote
debugging using USB as long as a local workstation was available to
act as the local USB connection to the target?
Thanks for the reply!
-- Dave
