Re: IAR workbench or Rowley CrossWorks
Started by ●January 18, 2007
Reply by ●January 18, 20072007-01-18
Rowley Crossworks support is great. Always a quick turn-around with
problem queries.
We were avoided IAR because they develop their own tools, essentially
locking your code to their compiler. You can of course change this
with a fair amount of work and retesting - but we didn't want to go there.
The IAR dev environment is more refined, but the whole package also
costs nearly three times as much. And even then, it's still not as
good as something like VisualStudio/UltraEdit/Codewright etc...
The Rowley licenses are based on a PER DEVELOPER scheme. So, each
developer can have a copy of their system (legally) at work, home, and
any other computer they may use. For example, your workstation, your
nightly build PC, and your home PC.
IAR and Keil both lock your licenses to a single PC.
Crossworks works well with all the Olimex devices... $60 dev board,
$20 JTAG debugger. IAR doesn't work (I believe) with the Olimex JTAG
debugger.
Crossworks project management seems pretty good. It's nice to be able
to configure your projects, at the click of a button, to run from RAM
or Flash, with addition to different optimization levels. It would be
nice to be able to make your own profiles though... still, this was
better than the IAR option.
In the end, you have to get what works best for you. Get a copy of
the development systems and make a basic project run in their
simulator. Set breakpoints and try to do all the stuff you'd normally
do in a project.
Have fun, and maybe post your findings to this thread to help out
anyone else with the same problem. :)
Darcy
--- In l..., "Michael Scott" wrote:
>
> Looking for opinions on which is best for embedded ARM development.
>
problem queries.
We were avoided IAR because they develop their own tools, essentially
locking your code to their compiler. You can of course change this
with a fair amount of work and retesting - but we didn't want to go there.
The IAR dev environment is more refined, but the whole package also
costs nearly three times as much. And even then, it's still not as
good as something like VisualStudio/UltraEdit/Codewright etc...
The Rowley licenses are based on a PER DEVELOPER scheme. So, each
developer can have a copy of their system (legally) at work, home, and
any other computer they may use. For example, your workstation, your
nightly build PC, and your home PC.
IAR and Keil both lock your licenses to a single PC.
Crossworks works well with all the Olimex devices... $60 dev board,
$20 JTAG debugger. IAR doesn't work (I believe) with the Olimex JTAG
debugger.
Crossworks project management seems pretty good. It's nice to be able
to configure your projects, at the click of a button, to run from RAM
or Flash, with addition to different optimization levels. It would be
nice to be able to make your own profiles though... still, this was
better than the IAR option.
In the end, you have to get what works best for you. Get a copy of
the development systems and make a basic project run in their
simulator. Set breakpoints and try to do all the stuff you'd normally
do in a project.
Have fun, and maybe post your findings to this thread to help out
anyone else with the same problem. :)
Darcy
--- In l..., "Michael Scott" wrote:
>
> Looking for opinions on which is best for embedded ARM development.
>
Reply by ●January 19, 20072007-01-19
Darcy,
> Crossworks project management seems pretty good. It's nice
> to be able to configure your projects, at the click of a
> button, to run from RAM or Flash, with addition to different
> optimization levels. It would be nice to be able to make
> your own profiles though... still, this was better than the
> IAR option.
You can create your own configurations as you like them. Build >
Configurations then click New. Then you can say what build options you'd
like to inherit from... It's easy, if a little opaque.
--
Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
CrossWorks for ARM, MSP430, AVR, MAXQ, and now Cortex-M3 processors
> Crossworks project management seems pretty good. It's nice
> to be able to configure your projects, at the click of a
> button, to run from RAM or Flash, with addition to different
> optimization levels. It would be nice to be able to make
> your own profiles though... still, this was better than the
> IAR option.
You can create your own configurations as you like them. Build >
Configurations then click New. Then you can say what build options you'd
like to inherit from... It's easy, if a little opaque.
--
Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
CrossWorks for ARM, MSP430, AVR, MAXQ, and now Cortex-M3 processors
Reply by ●January 19, 20072007-01-19
Hi Darcy,
> The IAR dev environment is more refined, but the whole
> package also costs nearly three times as much.
I wonder how the IAR environment is more refined, in your view, than
CrossWorks? We work hard on the IDE to make it work well. Unfortunately,
it's grown a lot of complexity and, well, that needs to be addressed.
> And even then, it's still not as good as something like
> VisualStudio/UltraEdit/Codewright etc...
Visual Studio has a lot more effort put into it than CrossWorks, I'm
certain. I own UltraEdit and it's nice, I like CodeWright too (though I
found the syntax colouring disturbingly slow). Both are nice editors, but
they don't target embedded development like CrossWorks does. And we work on
Linux and (unreleased) Mac OS and (unreleased) Solaris.
There's a point where you need to decide how much to put into a single
program. For instance, I really like Araxis Merge and I use it a lot. We
now have a diff tool in the IDE, but should I go the whole way and make
something akin to Merge in CrossWorks? I mean, is that cash well spent?
What about the leggy menu entries associated with all the new functions?
Keystroke combos are already rather long. And what about something like
Final Builder that I also have a license for? Should we do something like
that?
Running a business is hard. We have more than enough work at present to
support boards and bring out new hardware and address other projects.
However, any suggestions for improvements are *always* welcome and they go
on our internal TO DO list.
--
Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
CrossWorks for ARM, MSP430, AVR, MAXQ, and now Cortex-M3 processors
> The IAR dev environment is more refined, but the whole
> package also costs nearly three times as much.
I wonder how the IAR environment is more refined, in your view, than
CrossWorks? We work hard on the IDE to make it work well. Unfortunately,
it's grown a lot of complexity and, well, that needs to be addressed.
> And even then, it's still not as good as something like
> VisualStudio/UltraEdit/Codewright etc...
Visual Studio has a lot more effort put into it than CrossWorks, I'm
certain. I own UltraEdit and it's nice, I like CodeWright too (though I
found the syntax colouring disturbingly slow). Both are nice editors, but
they don't target embedded development like CrossWorks does. And we work on
Linux and (unreleased) Mac OS and (unreleased) Solaris.
There's a point where you need to decide how much to put into a single
program. For instance, I really like Araxis Merge and I use it a lot. We
now have a diff tool in the IDE, but should I go the whole way and make
something akin to Merge in CrossWorks? I mean, is that cash well spent?
What about the leggy menu entries associated with all the new functions?
Keystroke combos are already rather long. And what about something like
Final Builder that I also have a license for? Should we do something like
that?
Running a business is hard. We have more than enough work at present to
support boards and bring out new hardware and address other projects.
However, any suggestions for improvements are *always* welcome and they go
on our internal TO DO list.
--
Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
CrossWorks for ARM, MSP430, AVR, MAXQ, and now Cortex-M3 processors
Reply by ●January 19, 20072007-01-19
Really? You don't say! I mean reading some of the Internet posts (not
necessarily here), you may get the impression that any college grad can
knock out a world shattering compiler product in 2 months, if they type
slowly. So why the heck should they pay money for your (and my) stuff? :-)
At 02:41 AM 1/19/2007, Paul Curtis wrote:
>...
>Running a business is hard. ...
>
// richard (This email is for mailing lists. To reach me directly, please
use richard at imagecraft.com)
necessarily here), you may get the impression that any college grad can
knock out a world shattering compiler product in 2 months, if they type
slowly. So why the heck should they pay money for your (and my) stuff? :-)
At 02:41 AM 1/19/2007, Paul Curtis wrote:
>...
>Running a business is hard. ...
>
// richard (This email is for mailing lists. To reach me directly, please
use richard at imagecraft.com)
Reply by ●January 19, 20072007-01-19
Hi Richard,
> [mailto:l...] On Behalf Of Richard
> Sent: 19 January 2007 11:40
> To: l...; l...
> Subject: RE: [lpc2000] Re: IAR workbench or Rowley CrossWorks
>
> Really? You don't say! I mean reading some of the Internet
> posts (not necessarily here), you may get the impression that
> any college grad can knock out a world shattering compiler
> product in 2 months, if they type slowly. So why the heck
> should they pay money for your (and my) stuff? :-)
The on that sticks in my mind is "it's hard to write a bad compiler for the
MSP430"; you know, that could very well be the case, but then it's hard to
write an outstanding compiler for anything. And then, of course, you need
to do all those horrible fiddly bits that everybody expects these days. And
offer great support. And for a great price. Because, you know, everything
is just so easy, there are automated tools to write all this stuff, and
anything is possible on a whiteboard over lunch.
--
Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
CrossWorks for ARM, MSP430, AVR, MAXQ, and now Cortex-M3 processors
> [mailto:l...] On Behalf Of Richard
> Sent: 19 January 2007 11:40
> To: l...; l...
> Subject: RE: [lpc2000] Re: IAR workbench or Rowley CrossWorks
>
> Really? You don't say! I mean reading some of the Internet
> posts (not necessarily here), you may get the impression that
> any college grad can knock out a world shattering compiler
> product in 2 months, if they type slowly. So why the heck
> should they pay money for your (and my) stuff? :-)
The on that sticks in my mind is "it's hard to write a bad compiler for the
MSP430"; you know, that could very well be the case, but then it's hard to
write an outstanding compiler for anything. And then, of course, you need
to do all those horrible fiddly bits that everybody expects these days. And
offer great support. And for a great price. Because, you know, everything
is just so easy, there are automated tools to write all this stuff, and
anything is possible on a whiteboard over lunch.
--
Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
CrossWorks for ARM, MSP430, AVR, MAXQ, and now Cortex-M3 processors
Reply by ●January 19, 20072007-01-19
For me CrossWorks is more user friendly
On 1/19/07, Paul Curtis wrote:
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> > [mailto:l... ] On Behalf
> Of Richard
> > Sent: 19 January 2007 11:40
> > To: l... ;
> l...
> > Subject: RE: [lpc2000] Re: IAR workbench or Rowley CrossWorks
> >
> > Really? You don't say! I mean reading some of the Internet
> > posts (not necessarily here), you may get the impression that
> > any college grad can knock out a world shattering compiler
> > product in 2 months, if they type slowly. So why the heck
> > should they pay money for your (and my) stuff? :-)
>
> The on that sticks in my mind is "it's hard to write a bad compiler for
> the
> MSP430"; you know, that could very well be the case, but then it's hard to
> write an outstanding compiler for anything. And then, of course, you need
> to do all those horrible fiddly bits that everybody expects these days.
> And
> offer great support. And for a great price. Because, you know, everything
> is just so easy, there are automated tools to write all this stuff, and
> anything is possible on a whiteboard over lunch.
>
> --
> Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
> CrossWorks for ARM, MSP430, AVR, MAXQ, and now Cortex-M3 processors
>
--
N-Link ARM JTAG & ARM7 Boards
--------------
http://www.micro4you.com
http://stores.ebay.com/Micro4you-Store
On 1/19/07, Paul Curtis wrote:
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> > [mailto:l... ] On Behalf
> Of Richard
> > Sent: 19 January 2007 11:40
> > To: l... ;
> l...
> > Subject: RE: [lpc2000] Re: IAR workbench or Rowley CrossWorks
> >
> > Really? You don't say! I mean reading some of the Internet
> > posts (not necessarily here), you may get the impression that
> > any college grad can knock out a world shattering compiler
> > product in 2 months, if they type slowly. So why the heck
> > should they pay money for your (and my) stuff? :-)
>
> The on that sticks in my mind is "it's hard to write a bad compiler for
> the
> MSP430"; you know, that could very well be the case, but then it's hard to
> write an outstanding compiler for anything. And then, of course, you need
> to do all those horrible fiddly bits that everybody expects these days.
> And
> offer great support. And for a great price. Because, you know, everything
> is just so easy, there are automated tools to write all this stuff, and
> anything is possible on a whiteboard over lunch.
>
> --
> Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
> CrossWorks for ARM, MSP430, AVR, MAXQ, and now Cortex-M3 processors
>
--
N-Link ARM JTAG & ARM7 Boards
--------------
http://www.micro4you.com
http://stores.ebay.com/Micro4you-Store
Reply by ●January 19, 20072007-01-19
As I hear from various people from time to time... 'but... it's
only
software'. Such is our life...
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: l... [mailto:l...]On Behalf Of
Paul Curtis
Sent: 19 January 2007 12:05
To: l...
Subject: RE: [lpc2000] Re: IAR workbench or Rowley CrossWorks
Hi Richard,
> [mailto:l...] On Behalf Of Richard
> Sent: 19 January 2007 11:40
> To: l...; l...
> Subject: RE: [lpc2000] Re: IAR workbench or Rowley CrossWorks
>
> Really? You don't say! I mean reading some of the Internet
> posts (not necessarily here), you may get the impression that
> any college grad can knock out a world shattering compiler
> product in 2 months, if they type slowly. So why the heck
> should they pay money for your (and my) stuff? :-)
The on that sticks in my mind is "it's hard to write a bad compiler for
the
MSP430"; you know, that could very well be the case, but then it's hard to
write an outstanding compiler for anything. And then, of course, you need
to do all those horrible fiddly bits that everybody expects these days.
And
offer great support. And for a great price. Because, you know, everything
is just so easy, there are automated tools to write all this stuff, and
anything is possible on a whiteboard over lunch.
--
Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
CrossWorks for ARM, MSP430, AVR, MAXQ, and now Cortex-M3 processors
software'. Such is our life...
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: l... [mailto:l...]On Behalf Of
Paul Curtis
Sent: 19 January 2007 12:05
To: l...
Subject: RE: [lpc2000] Re: IAR workbench or Rowley CrossWorks
Hi Richard,
> [mailto:l...] On Behalf Of Richard
> Sent: 19 January 2007 11:40
> To: l...; l...
> Subject: RE: [lpc2000] Re: IAR workbench or Rowley CrossWorks
>
> Really? You don't say! I mean reading some of the Internet
> posts (not necessarily here), you may get the impression that
> any college grad can knock out a world shattering compiler
> product in 2 months, if they type slowly. So why the heck
> should they pay money for your (and my) stuff? :-)
The on that sticks in my mind is "it's hard to write a bad compiler for
the
MSP430"; you know, that could very well be the case, but then it's hard to
write an outstanding compiler for anything. And then, of course, you need
to do all those horrible fiddly bits that everybody expects these days.
And
offer great support. And for a great price. Because, you know, everything
is just so easy, there are automated tools to write all this stuff, and
anything is possible on a whiteboard over lunch.
--
Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
CrossWorks for ARM, MSP430, AVR, MAXQ, and now Cortex-M3 processors
Reply by ●January 21, 20072007-01-21
> > The IAR dev environment is more refined, but the
whole
> > package also costs nearly three times as much.
>
> I wonder how the IAR environment is more refined, in your view, than
> CrossWorks? We work hard on the IDE to make it work well.
Unfortunately,
> it's grown a lot of complexity and, well, that needs to be addressed.
Whoops... there goes the can of worms :-) Simply, the IAR IDE lets
you navigate your code more easily. The Build/Compile options in
CrossWorks let you do much much more than IAR, but everyone needs to
write their code somewhere. Don't get me wrong, we wouldn't have
bought Crossworks if we didn't think it was more than capable!
> > And even then, it's still not as good as something like
> > VisualStudio/UltraEdit/Codewright etc...
>
> Visual Studio has a lot more effort put into it than CrossWorks, I'm
> certain. I own UltraEdit and it's nice, I like CodeWright too (though I
> found the syntax colouring disturbingly slow). Both are nice
editors, but
> they don't target embedded development like CrossWorks does. And we
work on
> Linux and (unreleased) Mac OS and (unreleased) Solaris.
This is essentially what I was trying to say above. They're very
different tools with different purposes. IAR simply had a few extra
dev environment features that I liked... but this was far from enough
to stop us from supporting CrossWorks. :) In all fairness, I believe
IAR is a much bigger company... so in comparison, given the size of
the teams involved, CrossWorks is a much more impressive piece of work.
> There's a point where you need to decide how much to put into a single
> program. For instance, I really like Araxis Merge and I use it a
lot. We
> now have a diff tool in the IDE, but should I go the whole way and make
> something akin to Merge in CrossWorks? I mean, is that cash well spent?
> What about the leggy menu entries associated with all the new functions?
> Keystroke combos are already rather long. And what about something like
> Final Builder that I also have a license for? Should we do
something like
> that?
>
> Running a business is hard. We have more than enough work at present to
> support boards and bring out new hardware and address other projects.
> However, any suggestions for improvements are *always* welcome and
they go
> on our internal TO DO list.
Which is why I like you guys so much... your development process is
considerably more tranparent to those of us outside! It's nice to see
what's being worked on and what's coming up.
I've been working for months now with CrossWorks and it is definitely
one of the nicest debug environments I've used... and I've used quite
a few! :) There has definitely been some good work put in to that
product.
> > package also costs nearly three times as much.
>
> I wonder how the IAR environment is more refined, in your view, than
> CrossWorks? We work hard on the IDE to make it work well.
Unfortunately,
> it's grown a lot of complexity and, well, that needs to be addressed.
Whoops... there goes the can of worms :-) Simply, the IAR IDE lets
you navigate your code more easily. The Build/Compile options in
CrossWorks let you do much much more than IAR, but everyone needs to
write their code somewhere. Don't get me wrong, we wouldn't have
bought Crossworks if we didn't think it was more than capable!
> > And even then, it's still not as good as something like
> > VisualStudio/UltraEdit/Codewright etc...
>
> Visual Studio has a lot more effort put into it than CrossWorks, I'm
> certain. I own UltraEdit and it's nice, I like CodeWright too (though I
> found the syntax colouring disturbingly slow). Both are nice
editors, but
> they don't target embedded development like CrossWorks does. And we
work on
> Linux and (unreleased) Mac OS and (unreleased) Solaris.
This is essentially what I was trying to say above. They're very
different tools with different purposes. IAR simply had a few extra
dev environment features that I liked... but this was far from enough
to stop us from supporting CrossWorks. :) In all fairness, I believe
IAR is a much bigger company... so in comparison, given the size of
the teams involved, CrossWorks is a much more impressive piece of work.
> There's a point where you need to decide how much to put into a single
> program. For instance, I really like Araxis Merge and I use it a
lot. We
> now have a diff tool in the IDE, but should I go the whole way and make
> something akin to Merge in CrossWorks? I mean, is that cash well spent?
> What about the leggy menu entries associated with all the new functions?
> Keystroke combos are already rather long. And what about something like
> Final Builder that I also have a license for? Should we do
something like
> that?
>
> Running a business is hard. We have more than enough work at present to
> support boards and bring out new hardware and address other projects.
> However, any suggestions for improvements are *always* welcome and
they go
> on our internal TO DO list.
Which is why I like you guys so much... your development process is
considerably more tranparent to those of us outside! It's nice to see
what's being worked on and what's coming up.
I've been working for months now with CrossWorks and it is definitely
one of the nicest debug environments I've used... and I've used quite
a few! :) There has definitely been some good work put in to that
product.
