Hi Jon, 

> >It's taken three full-time engineers
three years to write the 
> >CrossStudio IDE and port it to various platforms and architectures.
> 
> Just *amortize*!

Yeah, and maybe we won't go bust before it all works out... ;-)

> >That doesn't include the compiler,
linker, and other tools 
> >required--the C compiler existed before that, about five 
> years ago we 
> >shipped our first smart card product.  RAL have invested over GBP 
> >600,000 (converting, > US$1,000,000) in this venture to get 
> ARM, MSP, 
> >and AVR compilers out the door.  Sure, we do other things too.
> 
> Could have just lived off the interest and had a lazy life.  
> But it must be that you just love us application programmers.

Trouble is, it's in a company.  To make it personal, subtract 40%.
Consider there are three approximately equal shareholders, and that's
$200K a piece.  I can't live off $200K for the rest of my life...

> >I doubt that the MSP430 market, globally, will
top 1,000 
> units a year 
> >for C development tools.  Just look at the "Which C compiler 
> do you use"
> >poll...  Perhaps I need to get all my customers to vote and 
> skew it...
> 
> Egads!!  No wonder you must traipse off to greener pastures.

We'll be announcing something new, at some point.

-- Paul.

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 23:00:05 +0930, Al wrote:
> 
> 
>>Hey Jon, are you sure I didn't write this? ;@}
> 
> 
> hehe.  Sometimes, it's nice to sing a duet instead of solo, eh?

With my voice? Seriously though I don't think it's a competition of
any 
kind, and, despite what some may choose to read into my comments, I 
really don't care what skill level people are, I don't respond any 
differently to them, except, perhaps I am more 'boisterous' with those
I 
feel are a bit more knowledgable, on the premise that, being old hands 
they won't take offence at the odd little joke here and there.

>>This expresses my views, as most people here
would know. Few might know 
>>that I love C. But not for most of the work I do. I see it as a rapid 
>>prototyping tool, when testing out concepts on a PC, or the tool of 
>>choice for windows apps that talk to my embedded designs. I think the 
>>ONLY issue with embedded systems choice of language is the individuals 
>>skill set and experience.
> 
> 
> It really seems like that.
> 
> There's a phrase I keep in mind, "To a man with a chainsaw,
everything looks
> like a tree."  This concept operates on several levels.  In one sense,
it means
> that when you are familiar with something, that's what you use.  In
anther
> sense, it means that when you are ONLY familiar with a single tool, then
you
> don't reach for other tools because you either don't know about
them are aren't
> comfortable with them.
> 
> This applies to assembly writing.  (1) If you aren't fluent with it,
then you
> will quite simply fully subscribe to the idea that C compilers are
"just as
> good, if not better" tools and, of course, you will also choose them
for every
> application you face, regardless of its needs.  (2) If you are fluent with
a
> number of tools, then you can better select the appropriate tool for the
job.

> 
> In short, a skilled professional programmer, like a skilled woodworker,
should
> be quite competent with a very wide variety of tools and able to select the
> proper tool for the tasks at hand.  For those willing to be more limited,
they
> will have more limited options available and the resulting products will
show
> this fact, just as a limited woodworker's "roll top" desk
won't be quite the
> same as one from a more broadly skilled professional.  (Of course, both can
> build one.)

This has been another of my mantras for a long time. earn as many 
different systems and tools as you might reasonably need to, study those 
which you see no use for if you have the time, then you'll find yourself 
in a position to make informed decisions with regard to development.

> My mission is to encourage programmers to be more
fully competent, not to tell
> folks to "use assembler" or "use C."  That choice
should be made by the person
> "on the ground," not by me.

I don't so much have a mission. But the reason I post here is in the 
hope that I might encourage others to have as much fun as I have in this 
field. You can really enjoy your work while still taking it seriously, 
you don't have to be serious for your work to be. I try to strike the 
balance between the deathly boring academic approach, and the yee-hawww 
cowboy approach.

>>The simple fact is that most people coming out 
>>of uni these days are C or C++ oriented (by the way that surely has
to 
>>be C++; ).
> 
> 
> Yeah.  I've taught C and C++ as an undergrad professor, as well as
computer
> architecture, operating systems, and concurrent programming classes.

I'm thinking of starting a training course. One day only. "How to do 
serious shit with micros in 1 day". Hardware, tools, video and beginners 
guide to the MSP430 (written by moi) for something like $200. Not to 
make a living, just because I see at least a hundred posts a week on 
usenet asking how to get started. The aim ISN'T to make instant 
engineers, but to show people simply how much fun you can have, and give 
them leads into studying the basics.

> I remember one of my students (happened many
times, but I remember the first
> time better) coming to me about how "difficult" the classes were.
 It turns out
> that she had been trying to choose between _accounting_ and _programming_
as a
> profession.  Took me back, for a second.

They both use numbers don't they? ;@} Or was it purely based on assumed 
income?

> 
> But then, I guess, programming has become a big tent these days.  Under it,
you
> have all manner of hopes and people.  For me, it's a love.  But I
realize that
> there are only a few people like me, anymore.  In my day, folks with a
personal
> love for physics, math, and electronics made up a much higher percentage.

We are of the same ilk, now it. My father had me enrolled for med 
school, I was only 16 but finished high school 3 months before my 16th 
birthday. My brother was at the same uni doing physics, so I stayed with 
him for a while. Dropped in on a few lectures, couldn't imagine anything 
more boring to do for the rest of my life, so buggered off round europe 
for a year then joined the army's engineering school. For the last 20 
years much of my work has been in the area of medicine or biometrics, 
funny old world?


> 
> But there are those seriously struggling to decide between corporate
marketing
> and computer programming and I understand the "one tool"
mentality.  It's a job,
> that's all.  Not a love.  For those, they will rightly focus on what
skills the
> programming marketplace is buying and learn that and only so much of it as
they
> will get paid well for.  They will have regular outdoor barbecues, pool
parties,
> and hot tub get-togethers, I suppose, and will clean behind their TV and
mow
> their lawns, too.

It's sad. I could earn a bundle writing java apps, or VB, but i'd go 
nuts. Let the grandchildren leave their toys around for me to fall over, 
  trade the hot tub for a hydro-therapy pool, call the garden 'the 
aussie bush look' and sweep everything behind the TV (hang on, it's on

the wall!!!!) I'd rather have fun.

> 
> Oh, well.

Good song that was.

Al

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 08:05:18 +0930, Al wrote:

>I'm thinking of starting a training course.
One day only. "How to do 
>serious shit with micros in 1 day". Hardware, tools, video and
beginners 
>guide to the MSP430 (written by moi) for something like $200. Not to 
>make a living, just because I see at least a hundred posts a week on 
>usenet asking how to get started. The aim ISN'T to make instant 
>engineers, but to show people simply how much fun you can have, and give 
>them leads into studying the basics.

Since I'm worried about creating a community for autistics/families I need
to
think about diversifying the income sources, so that we aren't overly
dependent
on any one or two sources.  Included in the plan is the idea of a week-long
embedded programming workshop.  I'm thinking here of 200 hectares or so in
a
valley area with a number of homes and cabins, community kitchen and get
together building, horse riding, walks, etc.  We'd need this infrastructure
anyway, but during parts of the year we'd reserve these for incoming
programmers
who could stay at our site, get a concentrated dose of embedded programming
under supervision and guidance, and have a lot of fun, as well.

Say... $3k/wk/person with housing and food provided and take on 15-20 at a time?

Keep most of the pleasure parts out of the brochure so that the "boss"
doesn't
think the programmers are getting too much of a good time for the deal and make
it look like we are really holding their noses to the grindstone (which we
would, of course.)

I'd let them have... hmm... 6-7 hours of sleep each day... and the rest in
concentrated work with fun breaks.  No spare time, everything on-site.

Jon

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 23:32:39 +0100, you wrote:

>Hi Jon, 
>
>> >It's taken three full-time engineers three years to write the 
>> >CrossStudio IDE and port it to various platforms and architectures.
>> 
>> Just *amortize*!
>
>Yeah, and maybe we won't go bust before it all works out... ;-)

  :)

>> >That doesn't include the compiler,
linker, and other tools 
>> >required--the C compiler existed before that, about five 
>> years ago we 
>> >shipped our first smart card product.  RAL have invested over GBP 
>> >600,000 (converting, > US$1,000,000) in this venture to get 
>> ARM, MSP, 
>> >and AVR compilers out the door.  Sure, we do other things too.
>> 
>> Could have just lived off the interest and had a lazy life.  
>> But it must be that you just love us application programmers.
>
>Trouble is, it's in a company.  To make it personal, subtract 40%.
>Consider there are three approximately equal shareholders, and that's
>$200K a piece.  I can't live off $200K for the rest of my life...

Car pool a lot or use a bicycle?  And you'd be surprised how roomy a tent
can
be, if you put your mind to it.  And don't forget to grow your lettuce,
too.  If
you have some insects out there, you can use them to spice up the salads.  ;)

Think minimal.

hehe.  I just want those pinnacle, top-notch C compilers, no matter how much it
hurts the both of us.

  :)

>> >I doubt that the MSP430 market, globally,
will top 1,000 
>> units a year 
>> >for C development tools.  Just look at the "Which C compiler 
>> do you use"
>> >poll...  Perhaps I need to get all my customers to vote and 
>> skew it...
>> 
>> Egads!!  No wonder you must traipse off to greener pastures.
>
>We'll be announcing something new, at some point.

You sound like my youngest.

  "Where's mom, Lee?"

  "Somewhere."

Jon

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 08:05:18 +0930, Al wrote:
> 
> 
>>I'm thinking of starting a training course. One day only. "How
to do 
>>serious shit with micros in 1 day". Hardware, tools, video and
beginners 
>>guide to the MSP430 (written by moi) for something like $200. Not to 
>>make a living, just because I see at least a hundred posts a week on 
>>usenet asking how to get started. The aim ISN'T to make instant 
>>engineers, but to show people simply how much fun you can have, and give

>>them leads into studying the basics.
> 
> 
> Since I'm worried about creating a community for autistics/families I
need to
> think about diversifying the income sources, so that we aren't overly
dependent
> on any one or two sources.  Included in the plan is the idea of a week-long
> embedded programming workshop.  I'm thinking here of 200 hectares or
so in a
> valley area with a number of homes and cabins, community kitchen and get
> together building, horse riding, walks, etc.  We'd need this
infrastructure
> anyway, but during parts of the year we'd reserve these for incoming
programmers
> who could stay at our site, get a concentrated dose of embedded programming
> under supervision and guidance, and have a lot of fun, as well.
> 
> Say... $3k/wk/person with housing and food provided and take on 15-20 at a
time?
> 
> Keep most of the pleasure parts out of the brochure so that the
"boss" doesn't
> think the programmers are getting too much of a good time for the deal and
make
> it look like we are really holding their noses to the grindstone (which we
> would, of course.)
> 
> I'd let them have... hmm... 6-7 hours of sleep each day... and the
rest in
> concentrated work with fun breaks.  No spare time, everything on-site.

Almost the opposite to my plan. I visualise something more like lego 
Mindworks on steroids. Give them a proven module with lots of possible 
scenarios. Bolted together code modules. A basic grounding on the parts 
of a system, then let them play. Everyone gets to pick their own 
project, nothing dumb like led flashers. perhaps one guy builds a 
receiver/graph display, while another builds a sensor, transmitter. At 
the end they get to trade code. Run the course at home, but 
non-residential. I decided not to move further outback, too hard to get 
to hospital when I need it. So I'm building a new house locally. 4 
floors, about 660sq.mtr. The courses will run in the 180sq mtr 'play 
room, under the house. If I go that way. I'm also thinking to perhaps 
sell the course on its own. Who knows. a lot depends on what happens 
when I go to court later this year.

Al

Paul said:

> It's taken three full-time engineers three
years to write the
> CrossStudio IDE and port it to various platforms and
> architectures. That doesn't include the compiler, linker, and
> other tools required--the C compiler existed before that, about
> five years ago we shipped our first smart card product.  RAL have
> invested over GBP 600,000 (converting, > US$1,000,000) in this
> venture to get ARM, MSP, and AVR compilers out the door.  Sure,
> we do other things too.

First let me set out my stall. MPE has been in the embedded 
compilers business for 20+ years, in Forth compilers rather than 
C compilers. Our VFX compilers produce the best code for Forth 
anywhere. We have used Rowley to produce C compilers for us in 
the past, and our VFX compilers are as good as they are in some 
part because of Paul's ability to break them.

Now the commercial part. I've spoken to many people supplying 
compilers for minority languages and embedded systems. I know of 
no small compiler shop that makes the majority of its living 
from writing and selling compilers. The majority of us make our 
profits from the consultancy jobs that come because we write 
compilers. Our VFX development costs compare with Paul's, and we 
support seven CPU architectures.

Yes, we could always put in an extra optimisation, but the 
attitudes of the majority of our customers who are not active on 
newsgroups and mailing lists favour stability over the last 10% 
of performance. It has taken me nearly three years to get a 
client with an 850,000+ LOC PC application to drop parallel 
development of the old non-VFX chassis and VFX chassis. The 
final key was to make the debugger GUI on the new system look 
very much the same as the old GUI. The front-end matters 
commercially.

Stephen
--
Stephen Pelc, stephen@step...
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 23 80 631441, fax: +44 23 80 339691
web: http://www.mpeltd.demon.co.uk - free VFX Forth downloads

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 09:05:52 +0930, Al wrote:

>Almost the opposite to my plan. I visualise
something more like lego 
>Mindworks on steroids. Give them a proven module with lots of possible 
>scenarios. Bolted together code modules. A basic grounding on the parts 
>of a system, then let them play. Everyone gets to pick their own 
>project, nothing dumb like led flashers.

Actually, that's not far from what's needed with a week-long, too. 
There's so
much to cover and so little real time even in a week.  The difference here might
be that each of them would get to do more of those projects -- not just one.

I'd probably divvy them up into teams of 3 for the week and put them in
modest
competitions with each other.  A case where everyone wins, I mean, not anything
mean-spirited or the like.  Something akin to table-top battles where I figure
out different categories so that everyone gets a prize for what they did right.

>perhaps one guy builds a 
>receiver/graph display, while another builds a sensor, transmitter.

Yup, great!

>At 
>the end they get to trade code. Run the course at home, but 
>non-residential. I decided not to move further outback, too hard to get 
>to hospital when I need it.

Understood.

>So I'm building a new house locally. 4 
>floors, about 660sq.mtr.

Sounds wonderful!

(That's a bit bigger than my current home (460 m^2) on 2 2/3 hectares.   I
also
have a shop with 120 m^2, though.  And I am out breaking my poor back on site
prep to build a barn this summer, with about 220 m^2 in it.  When I say
"I'm
building it" I mean *I* am building it -- which is to be differentiated
from to
idea of "having it built for me."  Something my bones remind me of,
each day.
But this isn't the place I'm talking about, earlier, which is perhaps
10 years
away, yet.  Your plans are much more close at hand.)

>The courses will run in the 180sq mtr 'play 
>room, under the house. If I go that way. I'm also thinking to perhaps 
>sell the course on its own. Who knows. a lot depends on what happens 
>when I go to court later this year.

I hope it goes VERY WELL.

Jon

Paul said:

>> I find very little left to be done on the
MSP430 compiler for the
moment. IAR have let the cat out of the bag somewhat about forthcoming
MSPs, and I don't know if TI will object to that. <<

Right, so as you've got a load of spare time on your hands, would you write
a 
C compiler/IDE  for the Freescale (nee Motorola) DSPs?! Then I wouldn't
have 
to use the bl00dy awful Metrowerks compiler any more! ;-) 

I reckon just about everyone else would migrate over as well. I'm not the
only 
one who dispairs over it! 

Hi Robert,

> Paul said:
> 
> >> I find very little left to be done on the MSP430 compiler for the
> moment.  IAR have let the cat out of the bag somewhat about 
> forthcoming MSPs, and I don't know if TI will object to that. <<
> 
> Right, so as you've got a load of spare time on your hands, 
> would you write a C compiler/IDE  for the Freescale (nee 
> Motorola) DSPs?! Then I wouldn't have to use the bl00dy awful 
> Metrowerks compiler any more! ;-) 
> 
> I reckon just about everyone else would migrate over as well. 
> I'm not the only one who dispairs over it! 

Would that be the 56800 or the 56300?  The 56600 looks like the bastard
child: a processor Morotola can't give away (the M.CORE) together with a
DSP from hell.  What a nightmare!  No wonder they purchased Metrowerks,
somebody has to produce tools for these chips.

I do have a 56800 eval kit in the office; I've even tried out the
Metrowerks stuff.  I am not a fan of the IDE at all, it must be said,
but it does have its supporters.  Besides, it's award winning (as it
says on the Metrowerks website) so at least a panel of judges liked it
at some point.

Will I do tools for it?  Probably not, not unless there is a good reason
to.  As Freescale & Metrowerks are tied at the hip, it's difficult to
see Freescale fostering a 3P (compiler) tools network as Metrowerks can
bottom the price of any tool.

--
Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
CrossWorks for MSP430, ARM, and (soon) Atmel AVR processors 

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 11:01:15 +0100, Stephen wrote:

>I've spoken to many people supplying 
>compilers for minority languages and embedded systems. I know of 
>no small compiler shop that makes the majority of its living 
>from writing and selling compilers. The majority of us make our 
>profits from the consultancy jobs that come because we write 
>compilers. Our VFX development costs compare with Paul's, and we 
>support seven CPU architectures.

Ah!  So you compiler tool folks are rooting around in MY BED?  I'll have to
watch what I say "in confidence" with compiler tool vendors!  ;)

Jon