Thank you Jeff Fox

I don't see where this showed up the first time, so I am reposting it.  

I was browsing the Ultratechnology web site and I found a reference to a
MARC4 family of Forth 4 bit MCUs.  Turns out they are pretty much what I
have been looking for; very low power, small package, with Flash in
automotive temperature... pretty cool.  They are actually Forth
processors in that they implement a stack architecture that is used to
host Forth.  

But the Atmel web site is rather vague about how to develop using these
parts.  They make reference to using qForth, but I can't find where they
provide a copy of it.  Using Google and various Forth sites, the only
qForth I can find is by Toshiyasu Morita for the Apple II.  One site
that provides code talks about a very recently fixed, significant bug in
+loop.  It is also only available in a compressed format that seems to
be specific to the Apple II.  I can't imagine this is the same tool.  

Anyone know much about these parts or the tools for them?  I am
concerned that they are mainly for high volume customers and they won't
make much effort to sell a couple thousand.  

-- 

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX

I don't see where this showed up the first time, so I am reposting it.  

I was browsing the Ultratechnology web site and I found a reference to a
MARC4 family of Forth 4 bit MCUs.  Turns out they are pretty much what I
have been looking for; very low power, small package, with Flash in
automotive temperature... pretty cool.  They are actually Forth
processors in that they implement a stack architecture that is used to
host Forth.  

But the Atmel web site is rather vague about how to develop using these
parts.  They make reference to using qForth, but I can't find where they
provide a copy of it.  Using Google and various Forth sites, the only
qForth I can find is by Toshiyasu Morita for the Apple II.  One site
that provides code talks about a very recently fixed, significant bug in
+loop.  It is also only available in a compressed format that seems to
be specific to the Apple II.  I can't imagine this is the same tool.  

Anyone know much about these parts or the tools for them?  I am
concerned that they are mainly for high volume customers and they won't
make much effort to sell a couple thousand.  

-- 

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 01:05:21 -0500, rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I don't see where this showed up the first time, so I am reposting it.  
>
>I was browsing the Ultratechnology web site and I found a reference to a
>MARC4 family of Forth 4 bit MCUs.  Turns out they are pretty much what I
>have been looking for; very low power, small package, with Flash in
>automotive temperature... pretty cool.  They are actually Forth
>processors in that they implement a stack architecture that is used to
>host Forth.  
>
>But the Atmel web site is rather vague about how to develop using these
>parts.  They make reference to using qForth, but I can't find where they
>provide a copy of it.  Using Google and various Forth sites, the only
>qForth I can find is by Toshiyasu Morita for the Apple II.  One site
>that provides code talks about a very recently fixed, significant bug in
>+loop.  It is also only available in a compressed format that seems to
>be specific to the Apple II.  I can't imagine this is the same tool.  
>
>Anyone know much about these parts or the tools for them?  I am
>concerned that they are mainly for high volume customers and they won't
>make much effort to sell a couple thousand.  

Almost exactly a year ago, I was looking into these for a particular
project.  Unfortunately, the requirements of that project changed, and
I needed more analog capability than that provided by the MARC4 (none,
IIRC).

I downloaded a number of PDF files and an exe (that appears to be the
development tools: I never installed them) totalling about 5.5 MB.  I
think I renamed them, but the names include the original file name:

cookbook_doc3a96678ec7b0b.pdf
devguide_doc3b02827e42c24.pdf
Install_dev_tools3b17514f9c463.pdf
M44C090_doc3b7123df980ff.pdf
M44C092_doc3b7375e517163.pdf
M44C092V_doc3bebd7e26764a.pdf
M44C510E_doc3a9a4a14531d1.pdf
q_forth_dev_tools3b1752ff3f8d7.pdf
T48C893_doc3a684d1da194d.pdf
T48C893V_doc3a685443bb8a2.pdf
TAB_dev_tools3b1750b1f2a6f.pdf
corefiles_dev_tools39be0e9f17959.exe

Googling on the first file name, I see it can still be downloaded from
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc3a96678ec7b0b.pdf,
so the others might be accessible in a similar manner.

I see Atmel's web site is picky about Javascript now.  I can't access
the "Documentation" menu with Opera.  Maybe it's just broken.  Try

http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/<PAGE>.asp?family_id=633

replacing <PAGE> with tools, datasheets, app_notes, and other_docs,
and see if you find anything useful.

HTH,

                               -=Dave
-- 
Change is inevitable, progress is not.

rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<404D5EA1.96F2C309@yahoo.com>...
> I was browsing the Ultratechnology web site and I found a reference to a
> MARC4 family of Forth 4 bit MCUs.  Turns out they are pretty much what I
> have been looking for; very low power, small package, with Flash in
> automotive temperature... pretty cool.  They are actually Forth
> processors in that they implement a stack architecture that is used to
> host Forth.  

I found http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_products/doc4747.pdf
using a google search on Forth 4-bit
That document refers to their qForth integrated development
environment.  I also found a reference to the announcement in
More on Forth Engines volume 10 which I will check in my library.

Since they are made in Europe perhaps someone over there has had
some experience with them.  They look nice, very small, very low
power and quite a range of options.  But I really don't know about
the tools or availability.  If they are still available somewhere
along with qForth it would be nice to know.
 
> But the Atmel web site is rather vague about how to develop using these
> parts.  They make reference to using qForth, but I can't find where they
> provide a copy of it.  Using Google and various Forth sites, the only
> qForth I can find is by Toshiyasu Morita for the Apple II.  One site
> that provides code talks about a very recently fixed, significant bug in
> +loop.  It is also only available in a compressed format that seems to
> be specific to the Apple II.  I can't imagine this is the same tool.  
> 
> Anyone know much about these parts or the tools for them?  I am
> concerned that they are mainly for high volume customers and they won't
> make much effort to sell a couple thousand.  

Let us know what you find out about those little engines packaged with
their 4-bit bus.

Best Wishes,
Jeff Fox

Wolfgang Allinger wrote:
> 
>  On 09 Mar 04 at group /comp/lang/forth in article
>  <4fbeeb5a.0403090804.1d14f24a@posting.google.com>
>  <fox@ultratechnology.com>  (Jeff Fox)  wrote:
> 
> >rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:<404D5EA1.96F2C309@yahoo.com>... I was browsing the
> >> Ultratechnology web site and I found a reference to a MARC4 family
> >> of Forth 4 bit MCUs.  Turns out they are pretty much what I have
> >> been looking for; very low power, small package, with Flash in
> >> automotive temperature... pretty cool.  They are actually Forth
> >> processors in that they implement a stack architecture that is used
> >> to host Forth.
> 
> >I found http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_products/doc4747.pdf
> >using a google search on Forth 4-bit
> >That document refers to their qForth integrated development
> >environment.  I also found a reference to the announcement in
> >More on Forth Engines volume 10 which I will check in my library.
> >
> >Since they are made in Europe perhaps someone over there has had
> >some experience with them.  They look nice, very small, very low
> >power and quite a range of options.  But I really don't know about
> >the tools or availability.  If they are still available somewhere
> >along with qForth it would be nice to know.
> 
> I never used MARC 4, but was very interested.
> MARC 4 (single chip M-odular ARC-hitecture 4-bit microcomputer) were
> developed by Temic (Telefunken Semiconductors).
> I've filed some datasheets. However one e3505 is branded
> Eurosil electronic in Eching (near Munich) having the same phone# as
> Temic. I don't know, if that was another company of Telefunken, but it
> looks alike.
> 
> All my data sheets and the development SW is from late 1995.
> 
> Very funny: a cell is 4bit and a double is 8bit, D+ adds two 8bits and
> so on. The programmers guide has about 400 pages. It looks very similar
> to a F83 system.
> 
> >Let us know what you find out about those little engines packaged with
> >their 4-bit bus.
> 
> MARC4 features
> 
> 4bit Harvard architecture HLL oriented CPU
> 3-stage pipeline
> 256x4 RAM
> 9kB ROM
> 8 vectored priorizied IR
> Low-Voltage low-current operating, typ 3mA @ 2.4..6.2V
> 2us Instruction @ 4MHz crystal
> TOS in a register
> RP and SP regs
> 
> Development on a PC with qForth and an emulation board.
> 
> Here in Germany their is a guy in Munic, who has a work group on MARC 4.
> His name is Rafael Deliano and he reads de.comp.lang.forth
> I don't know if Rafael still uses MARC 4, however try to contact him.
> I'm shure, that Rafael understands english, so don't be shy to write to
> a German ng.
> 
> Bye from Germany
> 
> Wolfgang

Thanks for the info Wolfgang.  I am crossposting this to that newsgroup
and we'll see if he replies.  I see that he has recently posted there. 
I am leaving all the quotes intact so he can come up to speed on the
conversation. 

As an update, I made contact with an Atmel representative today and was
told that the flash versions of this MCU are not very cheap, but they
might be cheap enough.  He told me to contact a disti to get info on the
development system which is supposed to be QForth.  So far I have found
no pricing or availability info on the disti web sites.  

I am up to speed on the docs that are available at the Atmel site.  I
have found info on a dev board, the compiler (qForth) and the compiler
installation instructions.  But I have not found a link of any kind to
the dev sys itself.  I guess they require you to buy it.  

This is an old product that is used primarily in automotive remote
control key fobs.  The EEPROM versions are intended for development, but
a few companies use them in production like I am interested in doing. 
The MOQ for a ROM version is 10's of thousands.  

I assume that their calling the dev tool "qFORTH" is just a coincidence
that I found a qForth on the web.  There are only so many 1 letter
prefixes.  :)  The contact kept referring to qForth as a high end
assembly language.  I guess that is how it was explained to him.  

I am not sure this is going to work out for cost reasons.  If I have to
buy 830 MOQ at $5 apiece, that will break the deal for sure.  Otherwise
I like the idea.  

-- 

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX

 On 11 Mar 04 at group /comp/lang/forth in article
 <40509B43.DF463F05@yahoo.com>
 <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com>  (rickman)  wrote:

>Thanks for the reply.  I was aware of some of the history, but not all
>the details.
>
>Rafael Deliano wrote:
>>
>> The short answer: don't bother.

>If the tools and chips are expensive as you say, I won't bother.  I am
>hoping that I can get them for a price in line with other MCUs.  The
>problem with other devices is that they are not as low power so that
>it becomes hard to apply a backup battery for them to keep time
>without power applied to the board.  I have only found two other
>devices that can implement an RTC from battery at automotive temps.
>One is a Dallas part that includes a thermometer, but they don't spec
>the RTC at the full temp range and the other is the microBuddy from
>Semtech.  This one is not "spec'd" over automotive temp range, but
>they publish calibration curves up to 125C and they say it will
>operate.
>
>My incentive to using a different solution is to lower the cost.  So
>if the MARC4 EEPROM chips and/or tools come in at a high dollar, I
>will have to forget them.


You should look at the Cygnal F300 size 3x3mm !
The F310 is 5x5mm (with the Micro Lead Packages)
They hav a lot of peripherals, including ADC, PWM, temp sensor, UART and  
tons of more with a very fast optimized 8051 CPU. 1kB RAM and 8/16kB  
Flash...

Supply 2.7..3.6V, 5mA @ 25MHz, only 11uA @ 32kHz (a typical watch  
crystal) and Stop mode with 0,1uA. Temp range -40..+85 degree celsius.

Do you really need 125C? Try to talk with Cygnal. Are there Crystals  
specified for 125C ?

Oh I forgot, Cygnal is swallowed by Silicon Labs, however
http:\\www.cygnal.com is still working.

Typical development kit is about 99$. A single additional target board  
is 50$.

BTW I'm using the F310 (in a normal package) together with amrForth (a  
free GPL forth!) Their GUI runs under Windoze and Linux!
I use Windoze, amResearch mainly Linux.

Bye from Germany




-- 
FORTHing @ work                |      *Cheap*      ...pick any
Dipl.-Ing. Wolfgang Allinger   |    *Fast* *Good*  ... *two* of them
Germany                         ------------------------------------
## KreuzPunkt XP2 R ##         |    reply address set

rickman wrote:
> Wolfgang Allinger wrote:
>>
>>  On 09 Mar 04 at group /comp/lang/forth in article
>>  <4fbeeb5a.0403090804.1d14f24a@posting.google.com>
>>  <fox@ultratechnology.com>  (Jeff Fox)  wrote:
>>
>>> rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:<404D5EA1.96F2C309@yahoo.com>... I was browsing the
>>>> Ultratechnology web site and I found a reference to a MARC4 family
>>>> of Forth 4 bit MCUs.  Turns out they are pretty much what I have
>>>> been looking for; very low power, small package, with Flash in
>>>> automotive temperature... pretty cool.  They are actually Forth
>>>> processors in that they implement a stack architecture that is used
>>>> to host Forth.
>>

...
I will forward my MARC4 presentation to Rick.
Anyone else interested ... ?

-- 
Best Regards
Ulf at atmel dot com
These comments are intended to be my own opinion and they
may, or may not be shared by my employer, Atmel Sweden.

Thanks for the reply.  I was aware of some of the history, but not all
the details. 

Rafael Deliano wrote:
> 
> The short answer: don�t bother.

If the tools and chips are expensive as you say, I won't bother.  I am
hoping that I can get them for a price in line with other MCUs.  The
problem with other devices is that they are not as low power so that it
becomes hard to apply a backup battery for them to keep time without
power applied to the board.  I have only found two other devices that
can implement an RTC from battery at automotive temps.  One is a Dallas
part that includes a thermometer, but they don't spec the RTC at the
full temp range and the other is the microBuddy from Semtech.  This one
is not "spec'd" over automotive temp range, but they publish calibration
curves up to 125C and they say it will operate.  

My incentive to using a different solution is to lower the cost.  So if
the MARC4 EEPROM chips and/or tools come in at a high dollar, I will
have to forget them. 


>   The long answer: the semiconductor company Eurosil was in early
> 70ies founded by the Diehl group ( arms & ammunitions ) and
> specialised in low-voltage ( 1,5V ) CMOS. The company/fab was in
> Eching/Munich. They mainly seemed to have produced ICs for watches.
> The MARC4 was introduced in 1986 but there were only metal ROM
> versions available. Even by 1988 there was no cheap way of emulation.
>   That changed with availability of the EVC. This is a MARC4
> in a large ceramic DIL68 package that supports external EPROM and
> has the standard 8 Bit MARC4 emulation-bus. This way the piggy-backs
> were done before "FLASH"-versions became available. I have
> samples of the EVC and in Eching they have several hundreds
> stored. But the datasheet is a bit incomplete so its hard to
> get a emulator up this way. Anyway the EVC is not the way Atmel
> is going: they have a new ( expensive ) emulator done from iSystem
> Dachau/Munich based on FPGAs.
>   Eurosil was sold in the early 90ies to Temic ( Telefunken
> microelectronic ) which was nominally the semiconductorgroup of
> Mercedes-Benz but in fact the rubble left over from the collapsed
> AEG. Plus a bit of french rubble to make the usual euro-brew.
>   By about 1994 the first "FLASH"-versions mainly the 48C260
> were introduced. These are technically EEPROMs. They are mainly
> factory-programmed by Atmel to start production until
> ROM-parts are ready. For emulation with EVC one needs ROM-parts,
> but i got that never up. Building a FLASH-programmer for the
> 48C260 was with a little help from Eching simple. But the details
> of the emulation-bus are not in the datasheet. And as they are
> probably afraid that one can read out customer software ( the
> MARC4 is used in crypto-transponders for RFIDs ) they are not
> too keen to publish the details.
>   By that time Temic was the 2. or 3. largest seller of
> 4 bit controllers in Europe and these were probably all
> MARC4. Apart from consumer ( DCF77-clocks for Braun,
> utility-metering ) most were automotive. Main target RFIDs.
> The MARC4 is probably the commercially most succesfull
> stackprocessor. Echelons Neuron will never achieve that volume.
>   Mercedes-Benz sold of Temic in about 1998 (?) and the company
> was split up between Vishay and Atmel. The MARC4 is with Atmel.
> By that time i had lost any interest in the subject. Atmel seems
> to continue the MARC4 because they need for RFIDs a core that
> fits on very small chips.
>   There are only a handfull of customers that use the MARC4.
> Therefore there is no support via distributors. The devellopment
> tools are not very polished and expensive. They some time ago
> were looking for someone that could bring up their qFORTH from
> the TurboPascal-era to a more modern look.
> On the the other hand people in Eching and Heilbronn are most
> helpfull. You usually get the phonenumber of the engineer who
> is doing the chip. Only possible because there are so few customers
> and any of these customers is worth so much in sales.
> But if you are not intending to buy 200k of the ROM 44C260
> which is the minimum order as far as i remember you are wasting
> their time and your time too.
> 
> MfG JRD

-- 

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX

Ulf Samuelsson wrote:
> 
> rickman wrote:
> > Wolfgang Allinger wrote:
> >>
> >>  On 09 Mar 04 at group /comp/lang/forth in article
> >>  <4fbeeb5a.0403090804.1d14f24a@posting.google.com>
> >>  <fox@ultratechnology.com>  (Jeff Fox)  wrote:
> >>
> >>> rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>>> news:<404D5EA1.96F2C309@yahoo.com>... I was browsing the
> >>>> Ultratechnology web site and I found a reference to a MARC4 family
> >>>> of Forth 4 bit MCUs.  Turns out they are pretty much what I have
> >>>> been looking for; very low power, small package, with Flash in
> >>>> automotive temperature... pretty cool.  They are actually Forth
> >>>> processors in that they implement a stack architecture that is used
> >>>> to host Forth.
> >>
> 
> ...
> I will forward my MARC4 presentation to Rick.
> Anyone else interested ... ?

Thanks for the help.  But next time, ask before you send a large file by
email.  It is downloading now and I won't be able to receive any other
emails for the next couple of hours or so.  

I wish you had mentioned these chips before when I was posting about
automotive parts.  I know they don't fit the profile I was asking about
due to lack of temperature measurement, but I would have liked to have
known they were out there.  Being able to run off a 32kHz xtal and a
watch battery is a useful feature.  Even the AVRs and PICs can't do that
at <2 uA in the automotive range.  

-- 

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX

Ulf Samuelsson wrote:

> ...
> I will forward my MARC4 presentation to Rick.
> Anyone else interested ... ?

Yes, Pop it somewhere with a URL, and it could be worth a look.

I did see Digikey list a MARC4 development kit for <$300.

I also see Atmel list a ATAM894, 2H03, using a new number
that suggests it is a newer FLASH part (Prices?)

There is also a link to
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc4668.pdf
which is "MARC4 microcontroller enhancement report"
- this type of document can be usefull for anyone looking at
device selections.
-jg