> > I would like to see the substance behind that marketdroid claim - seems >a big call - but maybe the FLASH uC market is a much smaller piece of >the total 8 bit uC market than many think.maybe, but in a few more years flash will be just about all the 8/16 bit market.
Atmel AVR CAN
Started by ●April 15, 2004
Reply by ●April 27, 20042004-04-27
Reply by ●April 27, 20042004-04-27
CBarn24050 wrote:>> I would like to see the substance behind that marketdroid claim - seems >>a big call - but maybe the FLASH uC market is a much smaller piece of >>the total 8 bit uC market than many think. > > > maybe, but in a few more years flash will be just about all the 8/16 bit > market.My point was not the flash growth, but to raise eyebrows at the Atmel claim of 'leader, and 3x share of #2' in 8 bit Flash uC. Certainly, the flash portion of 8 bit uC is growing. Nine of the top 10 8 bit uC vendors have active FLASH family expansions - only Infineon do not have 8 bit FLASH, but they do have an active 16 bit Flash family. As to 'just about all', you'd need to quantify that more. It is interesting to note that mask is not going away, and even a recent high end 32 bit uC from Toshiba, is comming in FLASH and MASK versions. Surprised me, but Flash does cost more to FAB, and also cannot be as reliable as mask, so for high volume/stable code apps, mask still has a place. Philips have also recently released a new OTP member of the LPC7xx family. This seems to align with a TSSOP20 FLASH LPC9xx member, so they could be targeting both-ends of the market. OTP for the high volume low cost ( and even mask-flow equiv, of factory program ), and FLASH for the less stable code, and less price critical apps. - jg
Reply by ●April 28, 20042004-04-28
On 27 Apr 2004 10:53:36 -0700, schwobus@aol.com (Schwob) wrote:>Jim Granville <no.spam@designtools.co.nz> wrote in message news:<goGhc.2729$cY5.230696@news02.tsnz.net>... >> >> You mean the customers that have not yet heard of the ST STR710FZ2 ? ;) >> >> $/10K FLASH RAM MHz Pins Serial >> -----------+------+-------+-----+------+--------+------------- >> AT90CAN128 $7.50 128K 4K 16MHz 64TQFP CAN >> STR710FZ2 $7.80 256K 64K 48MHz 144TQFP CAN/USB/HDLC >> STR712FR1 $nya 128K 16K 48MHz 64TQFP CAN >> >> No price seen yet on their 64pin/128K model, but if the price given >> on their web site for the 256K/144 pin model is right, >> that's a lot of bang to the buck. >> >> Refs: >> http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040330/sftu033_2.html >> http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/10350.pdf >> http://www.st.com/stonline/products/support/micro/arm/str7_10.htm >> http://www.st.com/stonline/press/news/year2004/p1431p.htm >> >> There was some talk of a monolithic FlashARM from Atmel >> - is that close/canned/never really existed... ? >> >> -jg > > >Hi Jim, > >the ST devices sound very nice. Readin their press release though tell >me that they "plan to go into volume production in Q4 2004". In the >past ST has not been know for announcing their products conservatively >regarding schedule. So, there is already a device out there, running >60 MHz zero waitstates with 2 or 4 CAN interfaces from Philips >(LPC2129 and 2194). To me it seems that this time ST is not even a >fast follower, just a follower. There are however two things in the ST >devices that are very nice, the USB interface and the 12-bit ADC.Probably it is obvious to everyone else, but I am still wondering what applications require both CAN and USB? Is it for cars?? regards, Johnny.
Reply by ●April 28, 20042004-04-28
> >Hi Jim, > > > >the ST devices sound very nice. Readin their press release though tell > >me that they "plan to go into volume production in Q4 2004". In the > >past ST has not been know for announcing their products conservatively > >regarding schedule. So, there is already a device out there, running > >60 MHz zero waitstates with 2 or 4 CAN interfaces from Philips > >(LPC2129 and 2194). To me it seems that this time ST is not even a > >fast follower, just a follower. There are however two things in the ST > >devices that are very nice, the USB interface and the 12-bit ADC. > > Probably it is obvious to everyone else, but I am still wondering what > applications require both CAN and USB? > > Is it for cars?? > > regards, > Johnny. >How about an industrial controller which needs to be able to do self programming and to set different parameters from a PC. * USB Device Firmware Upgrade * USB Device Communication Class -- Best Regards Ulf at atmel dot com These comments are intended to be my own opinion and they may, or may not be shared by my employer, Atmel Sweden.
Reply by ●April 28, 20042004-04-28
> Atmel Brochures also make this claim : > "...with three times the market share of its nearest competitor, Atmel > is also the world's leading supplier of 8 bit Flash uC" > > There is also no mention of revenue, or units, so that also needs to > be clarified. viz : The 8 bit uC #1 bagging rights are currently split > between revenue and volume/units claimants. >Atmel, I believe is saying number of chips, not revenue. Cannot judge real numbers but many mobile phones has AVR chips inside. 5 million here, 5 million there quickly adds up over time. With 400+ M phones delivered each year, this is OK. AVR is also very popular in whitegoods. -- Best Regards Ulf at atmel dot com These comments are intended to be my own opinion and they may, or may not be shared by my employer, Atmel Sweden.
Reply by ●April 28, 20042004-04-28
Ulf Samuelsson wrote:>> Atmel Brochures also make this claim : >>"...with three times the market share of its nearest competitor, Atmel >>is also the world's leading supplier of 8 bit Flash uC" >> >> There is also no mention of revenue, or units, so that also needs to >>be clarified. viz : The 8 bit uC #1 bagging rights are currently split >>between revenue and volume/units claimants. >> > > > Atmel, I believe is saying number of chips, not revenue. > Cannot judge real numbers but many mobile phones has AVR chips inside. > 5 million here, 5 million there quickly adds up over time. > With 400+ M phones delivered each year, this is OK. > AVR is also very popular in whitegoods.Volumes, not revenue would help the case, and Atmel were probably the first with sub $1 Flash uC. However, sub $1 flash is now the norm. I still remain less than convinced, and it would take a ship load of ~30c ATtinyXX's to ramp the volumes. (Atmel would, of course, exclude the OTP/Mask AVRs from this data ? :) We may have to wait for releases from Microchip and Motorola on how their 8 pin / sub $1 flash devices are ramping, for a 'reality check'. Hitachi claim to have a 2:1 lead, and appx 25% of the market in 16 bit uC, but that's by revenue. They do tag some of their H8's as 8 bit, but mostly that revenue goes into the 16 bit basket. Note that the text above does NOT state AVRs only ( Tho it often downstream-morphs into that ). Atmel shipped 89C51s well before they shipped AVRs. That combine effect also helps lift the numbers. -jg
Reply by ●April 29, 20042004-04-29
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 18:19:10 +0200, "Ulf Samuelsson" <ulf@NOSPAMatmel.com> wrote:>> >Hi Jim, >> > >> >the ST devices sound very nice. Readin their press release though tell >> >me that they "plan to go into volume production in Q4 2004". In the >> >past ST has not been know for announcing their products conservatively >> >regarding schedule. So, there is already a device out there, running >> >60 MHz zero waitstates with 2 or 4 CAN interfaces from Philips >> >(LPC2129 and 2194). To me it seems that this time ST is not even a >> >fast follower, just a follower. There are however two things in the ST >> >devices that are very nice, the USB interface and the 12-bit ADC. >> >> Probably it is obvious to everyone else, but I am still wondering what >> applications require both CAN and USB? >> >> Is it for cars?? >> >> regards, >> Johnny. >> > > >How about an industrial controller which needs to be able to do self >programming >and to set different parameters from a PC. > >* USB Device Firmware Upgrade >* USB Device Communication Class
Reply by ●April 29, 20042004-04-29
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 18:19:10 +0200, "Ulf Samuelsson" <ulf@NOSPAMatmel.com> wrote:>> >Hi Jim, >> > >> >the ST devices sound very nice. Readin their press release though tell >> >me that they "plan to go into volume production in Q4 2004". In the >> >past ST has not been know for announcing their products conservatively >> >regarding schedule. So, there is already a device out there, running >> >60 MHz zero waitstates with 2 or 4 CAN interfaces from Philips >> >(LPC2129 and 2194). To me it seems that this time ST is not even a >> >fast follower, just a follower. There are however two things in the ST >> >devices that are very nice, the USB interface and the 12-bit ADC. >> >> Probably it is obvious to everyone else, but I am still wondering what >> applications require both CAN and USB? >> >> Is it for cars?? >> >> regards, >> Johnny. >> > > >How about an industrial controller which needs to be able to do self >programming >and to set different parameters from a PC. > >* USB Device Firmware Upgrade >* USB Device Communication ClassYes. thats true. I suppose there are CAN applications like Devicenet as well. Anyway I suppose like a lot of people, I am currently faced with the same problem, ie. death of the serial port on PCs. Maybe you can tell me when Atmel will produce an ARM7 processor with USB, a decent amount of Flash, and RAM on board? I would like about 1MB Flash and 256kB RAM. regards, Johnny.
Reply by ●April 29, 20042004-04-29
> >How about an industrial controller which needs to be able to do self > >programming > >and to set different parameters from a PC. > > > >* USB Device Firmware Upgrade > >* USB Device Communication Class > > > Yes. thats true. I suppose there are CAN applications like Devicenet > as well. > > Anyway I suppose like a lot of people, I am currently faced with the > same problem, ie. death of the serial port on PCs. Maybe you can > tell me when Atmel will produce an ARM7 processor with USB, a decent > amount of Flash, and RAM on board? > > I would like about 1MB Flash and 256kB RAM.Unfortunately, that is "indecent" with current 0,18u Embedded Flash process. I think that you will see devices with USB + CAN and 256 kB Flash quite soon. (AT91SAM7A3 will arrive this year). Atmel has ARM7 + USB for large volume ASSP customers. You could try the ARM9 (AT91RM9200) which of course needs external flash/SRAM.> regards, > Johnny. > >-- Best Regards Ulf at atmel dot com These comments are intended to be my own opinion and they may, or may not be shared by my employer, Atmel Sweden.
Reply by ●April 29, 20042004-04-29
Johnny wrote: <snip>> Anyway I suppose like a lot of people, I am currently faced with the > same problem, ie. death of the serial port on PCs. Maybe you can > tell me when Atmel will produce an ARM7 processor with USB, a decent > amount of Flash, and RAM on board? > > I would like about 1MB Flash and 256kB RAM.That's quite a bit - currently off most single chip road-maps. Intel, & Atmel, do have stacked-die ARM/FLASH/RAM devices where the process and yields can be optimised for each die in the stack. Intel have some numbers in that series that make 1MB/256K look small :) -jg
