Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:25:49 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/25/2023 6:42 PM, George Neuner wrote: 
> > On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 18:21:21 -0700 (PDT), Rick C 
> > <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> > 
> >> Excellent Don. Now, please tell me which unit is the DCE and which is 
> >> the DTE? Or better yet, just answer the question asked, on this 
> >> device, which pin on the DB9 connector is the data output and which 
> >> is the data input? 
> > 
> > "Terminal Equipment" (TE) vs "Communications Equipment" (CE). 
> > 
> > DTE is the computer (terminal), DCE is the modem. To adhere to the 
> > RS-232 conventions, your external device has to be "communications 
> > equipment". 
> > 
> > Don explained the cables and how the signaling works. DTE transmits on 
> > TxD, and receives on RxD. DCE does the reverse. Which physical pins 
> > these are on depends on the form factor: DB9 or DB25. 
> > 
> > RS-232 pinout diagrams are very easy to find. Try Google.
> Rick doesn't understand how the Standard is interpreted solely as 
> "guidance", in the real world. The idea that someone ELSE could 
> examine *his* choice of device from *his* chosen vendor and 
> comment, in any meaningful way, suggests a naivite that's 
> beyond laughable. 

The comedy here, is that both of you think I was saying anything about RS-232 being useful here, as other than a voltage level standard.  I expect that of you.  I don't know George so well. 

I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the other person sees the absurdity of what they were saying.  You still haven't figured that out. 

-- 

Rick C.

-+--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:37:45 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/25/2023 7:26 PM, Rick C wrote: 
> > Engineers design stuff. Technicians figure out how to make it work.
> And you apparently do neither. <frown>

You seem to have gone off the weird end.  I wish GG had a kill file feature.  At least you managed to post without overflowing everyone's input buffers.  You seem to have a penchant for using 100 words, when 20 will do. 

Thanks for keeping this one brief. 

-- 

Rick C.

-+-+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:52:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/26/2023 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote: 
> > On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote: 
> >> I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a 
> >> pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label 
> >> telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have 
> >> one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function 
> >> it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!, 
> >> etc.) 
> > 
> > This is the APC widget mentioned: 
> > <https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54>
> And this is the COTS *PC* that I use as a name server: 
> <https://mega.nz/file/Fi4hEACJ#YgVZ5tdZBjTcwW76gXC2vdgv5M6u4lTpUDAwu53Z9n8> 
> 
> Note the *two* serial ports (DTE as the standard dictates), 100BaseT 
> network connection (it's just a name server, it doesn't need to 
> have high throughput), PS/2 keyboard and VGA (cuz it's a PC!), 
> wifi and USB. The four mounting holes visible are the VESA standard 
> (I have these mounted between my monitor and support arm) 
> 
> As an ISA PC, it will run damn near any OS intended for such 
> a platform (I run NetBSD on this box). So, all of the PC hosted 
> AND TARGETED tools are available (I have a LFC monitor wired to 
> one of the serial ports to discipline my time service as that 
> was easier/cheaper to implement than any other solution!).

Wow!  He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.  

Don, why are you here?  Why are you posting in this thread?  You have gone completely off topic.  

Thanks, 

-- 

Rick C.

-+-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 3/26/2023 7:30 PM, Rick C wrote:
> On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:52:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>> On 3/26/2023 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>> I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a
>>>> pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label
>>>> telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have
>>>> one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function
>>>> it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!,
>>>> etc.)
>>>
>>> This is the APC widget mentioned:
>>> <https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54>
>> And this is the COTS *PC* that I use as a name server:
>> <https://mega.nz/file/Fi4hEACJ#YgVZ5tdZBjTcwW76gXC2vdgv5M6u4lTpUDAwu53Z9n8>
>>
>> Note the *two* serial ports (DTE as the standard dictates), 100BaseT
>> network connection (it's just a name server, it doesn't need to
>> have high throughput), PS/2 keyboard and VGA (cuz it's a PC!),
>> wifi and USB. The four mounting holes visible are the VESA standard
>> (I have these mounted between my monitor and support arm)
>>
>> As an ISA PC, it will run damn near any OS intended for such
>> a platform (I run NetBSD on this box). So, all of the PC hosted
>> AND TARGETED tools are available (I have a LFC monitor wired to
>> one of the serial ports to discipline my time service as that
>> was easier/cheaper to implement than any other solution!).
> 
> Wow!  He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.
> 
> Don, why are you here?  Why are you posting in this thread?  You have gone completely off topic.
> 
> Thanks,

To show that if you buy something (or, in my case, RESCUE something with
*no* markings at all on it) for a KNOWN MARKET, then you can *infer* how
a responsible design would pin the connectors.

I rescued this item.  I had no idea what sort of CPU was inside.
Nor memory.  Nor pinouts of the DB9's (which I *assumed* would
be serial ports -- why?  because the rest of the box LOOKED like
it was trying to be a PC, albeit in a very small form factor
and with a wonky power connector).  Or, if the 8P8C was actually
a network port.  Or, if the circular DIN was intended as a PS/2
keyboard.  Or, the DE15 as a video port.

The markings by the connectors *suggested* these uses.  And, it
seemed more likely than not...

With *no* documentation, I opted to plug in a monitor (largely
confident that the resolution would be supported by this
"unknown" box) and keyboard and poke around the SETUP screen
(which I *also* assumed would be available... somehow).

Why was I *not* surprised with that outcome?

You've posted a link to a device selected from a vendor
that I'm unfamiliar with and, you infer, insufficiently
documented (hey, at least you KNOW who made/makes your
device!  That's more than *I* had to go on!).

Then, expect "us" to give you a definitive answer about
specifics related to that device.  And, frown on those of
us that point this out to you as being "not helpful".

ALL ONE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT A RANDOM DEVICE THAT APPEARS TO HAVE
SERIAL PORT(S) IS WHAT THE STANDARD SAYS ABOUT THOSE PORTS,
THEIR GENDER AND THE SIGNALS ASSIGNED TO THE PINS AND THEIR
DIRECTIONS.  I suspect more than a few people learned something
about the standard, here.  And, the approach I have taken
to handle pinning differences (my "widgets").

Why aren't you talking to the vendor?  Do you expect him/her
to be reading your posts, here?

Buy something that appears to be a PC.  It won't succeed
in that ubiquitous market if it differs radically from
other devices that also claim to be PCs.  So, you can,
/with a high degree of confidence/, expect the connectors
to be pinned the way a PC would pin them.

Or, buy from Joe's Garage Shop -- ask for Joe.

THIS example is a testament to how I was able to make use
of a COMPLETELY undocumented device simply by making a
good assumption about the intent of the product and the
logical conclusions that flow from that assumption.  The
only examination required was trying to deduce the
connections to the power connector and the associated
voltages (but, I had a pretty good feeling it wouldn't
be 7.293VDC or 28V or... again, because of the likely market)

On 3/26/2023 7:25 PM, Rick C wrote:
> On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:25:49 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>> On 3/25/2023 6:42 PM, George Neuner wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 18:21:21 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
>>> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Excellent Don. Now, please tell me which unit is the DCE and which is
>>>> the DTE? Or better yet, just answer the question asked, on this
>>>> device, which pin on the DB9 connector is the data output and which
>>>> is the data input?
>>>
>>> "Terminal Equipment" (TE) vs "Communications Equipment" (CE).
>>>
>>> DTE is the computer (terminal), DCE is the modem. To adhere to the
>>> RS-232 conventions, your external device has to be "communications
>>> equipment".
>>>
>>> Don explained the cables and how the signaling works. DTE transmits on
>>> TxD, and receives on RxD. DCE does the reverse. Which physical pins
>>> these are on depends on the form factor: DB9 or DB25.
>>>
>>> RS-232 pinout diagrams are very easy to find. Try Google.
>> Rick doesn't understand how the Standard is interpreted solely as
>> "guidance", in the real world. The idea that someone ELSE could
>> examine *his* choice of device from *his* chosen vendor and
>> comment, in any meaningful way, suggests a naivite that's
>> beyond laughable.
> 
> The comedy here, is that both of you think I was saying anything about RS-232 being useful here, as other than a voltage level standard.  I expect that of you.  I don't know George so well.
> 
> I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the other person sees the absurdity of what they were saying.  You still haven't figured that out.

No, YOU haven't.  I twice made the statements about the standard.
You didn't get the hint.  Instead, you assumed I would engage you
in a pointless discussion about what the pinout *could* be.

In plain english:  THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE HERE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT THE DEVICE
THAT *YOU* SELECTED.  (unless they want to do the work that you seem to be
avoiding in favor of being argumentative)

You're the one who picked the device.  Did you *expect* it to adhere
to a standard?  ANY standard?  If so, why?  If not, why not?

Spend a few dollars (as you've likely spent that much in *time*)
and buy one to examine -- if your attempts at getting answers
from the vendor leave you distraught.

On 27/03/2023 04:30, Rick C wrote:

> Wow!  He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.
> 
> Don, why are you here?  Why are you posting in this thread?  You have gone completely off topic.
> 

Rick, why are /you/ here?  You have been on Usenet for decades, but 
still seem to struggle with the basics.

A group like this is a discussion group.  It is not your personal 
support channel.  You do not have any rights to the group, or any rights 
to the thread.  If Don wants to post here, he can post here.  If he 
wants to ramble or rant (and he does like doing that - he has a lot of 
experience and likes to share), that's his right and his choice.  Ignore 
his posts if you don't like them.

You have spent this thread bullying and insulting people, pushing them 
into doing your work for free.  When it looks like some here might be 
possible paid suppliers, you undermine and patronise them.

When you come looking for help and advice, it's fair enough to disagree 
- but we can do without the sarcasm and belittlement of your responses.

And if you want to killfile me for writing some hard truths, go ahead. 
But first you'll have to figure out how to use Usenet instead of blaming 
Google Groups for your own problems.

On 3/26/2023 12:24 PM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
> Hard to believe the long fossilized RS-232 horse can get all that
> beating again...

Some folks are slow to learn...

> Next thing let's beat the baud rate detection? :D

No, BREAK detection!  :>

(Check your mail.)

On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:31:18 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/26/2023 7:30 PM, Rick C wrote: 
> > On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:52:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote: 
> >> On 3/26/2023 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote: 
> >>> On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote: 
> >>>> I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a 
> >>>> pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label 
> >>>> telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have 
> >>>> one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function 
> >>>> it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!, 
> >>>> etc.) 
> >>> 
> >>> This is the APC widget mentioned: 
> >>> <https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54> 
> >> And this is the COTS *PC* that I use as a name server: 
> >> <https://mega.nz/file/Fi4hEACJ#YgVZ5tdZBjTcwW76gXC2vdgv5M6u4lTpUDAwu53Z9n8> 
> >> 
> >> Note the *two* serial ports (DTE as the standard dictates), 100BaseT 
> >> network connection (it's just a name server, it doesn't need to 
> >> have high throughput), PS/2 keyboard and VGA (cuz it's a PC!), 
> >> wifi and USB. The four mounting holes visible are the VESA standard 
> >> (I have these mounted between my monitor and support arm) 
> >> 
> >> As an ISA PC, it will run damn near any OS intended for such 
> >> a platform (I run NetBSD on this box). So, all of the PC hosted 
> >> AND TARGETED tools are available (I have a LFC monitor wired to 
> >> one of the serial ports to discipline my time service as that 
> >> was easier/cheaper to implement than any other solution!). 
> > 
> > Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed. 
> > 
> > Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You have gone completely off topic. 
> > 
> > Thanks,
> To show that if you buy something (or, in my case, RESCUE something with 
> *no* markings at all on it) for a KNOWN MARKET, then you can *infer* how 
> a responsible design would pin the connectors. 
> 
> I rescued this item. I had no idea what sort of CPU was inside. 
> Nor memory. Nor pinouts of the DB9's (which I *assumed* would 
> be serial ports -- why? because the rest of the box LOOKED like 
> it was trying to be a PC, albeit in a very small form factor 
> and with a wonky power connector). Or, if the 8P8C was actually 
> a network port. Or, if the circular DIN was intended as a PS/2 
> keyboard. Or, the DE15 as a video port. 
> 
> The markings by the connectors *suggested* these uses. And, it 
> seemed more likely than not... 
> 
> With *no* documentation, I opted to plug in a monitor (largely 
> confident that the resolution would be supported by this 
> "unknown" box) and keyboard and poke around the SETUP screen 
> (which I *also* assumed would be available... somehow). 
> 
> Why was I *not* surprised with that outcome? 
> 
> You've posted a link to a device selected from a vendor 
> that I'm unfamiliar with and, you infer, insufficiently 
> documented (hey, at least you KNOW who made/makes your 
> device! That's more than *I* had to go on!). 
> 
> Then, expect "us" to give you a definitive answer about 
> specifics related to that device. And, frown on those of 
> us that point this out to you as being "not helpful". 
> 
> ALL ONE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT A RANDOM DEVICE THAT APPEARS TO HAVE 
> SERIAL PORT(S) IS WHAT THE STANDARD SAYS ABOUT THOSE PORTS, 
> THEIR GENDER AND THE SIGNALS ASSIGNED TO THE PINS AND THEIR 
> DIRECTIONS. I suspect more than a few people learned something 
> about the standard, here. And, the approach I have taken 
> to handle pinning differences (my "widgets"). 
> 
> Why aren't you talking to the vendor? Do you expect him/her 
> to be reading your posts, here? 
> 
> Buy something that appears to be a PC. It won't succeed 
> in that ubiquitous market if it differs radically from 
> other devices that also claim to be PCs. So, you can, 
> /with a high degree of confidence/, expect the connectors 
> to be pinned the way a PC would pin them. 
> 
> Or, buy from Joe's Garage Shop -- ask for Joe. 
> 
> THIS example is a testament to how I was able to make use 
> of a COMPLETELY undocumented device simply by making a 
> good assumption about the intent of the product and the 
> logical conclusions that flow from that assumption. The 
> only examination required was trying to deduce the 
> connections to the power connector and the associated 
> voltages (but, I had a pretty good feeling it wouldn't 
> be 7.293VDC or 28V or... again, because of the likely market)

You are off topic in this thread.  Why not start your own thread, rather than polluting this one? 

-- 

Rick C.

-++-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:31:20 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/26/2023 7:25 PM, Rick C wrote: 
> > On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:25:49 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote: 
> >> On 3/25/2023 6:42 PM, George Neuner wrote: 
> >>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 18:21:21 -0700 (PDT), Rick C 
> >>> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >>> 
> >>>> Excellent Don. Now, please tell me which unit is the DCE and which is 
> >>>> the DTE? Or better yet, just answer the question asked, on this 
> >>>> device, which pin on the DB9 connector is the data output and which 
> >>>> is the data input? 
> >>> 
> >>> "Terminal Equipment" (TE) vs "Communications Equipment" (CE). 
> >>> 
> >>> DTE is the computer (terminal), DCE is the modem. To adhere to the 
> >>> RS-232 conventions, your external device has to be "communications 
> >>> equipment". 
> >>> 
> >>> Don explained the cables and how the signaling works. DTE transmits on 
> >>> TxD, and receives on RxD. DCE does the reverse. Which physical pins 
> >>> these are on depends on the form factor: DB9 or DB25. 
> >>> 
> >>> RS-232 pinout diagrams are very easy to find. Try Google. 
> >> Rick doesn't understand how the Standard is interpreted solely as 
> >> "guidance", in the real world. The idea that someone ELSE could 
> >> examine *his* choice of device from *his* chosen vendor and 
> >> comment, in any meaningful way, suggests a naivite that's 
> >> beyond laughable. 
> > 
> > The comedy here, is that both of you think I was saying anything about RS-232 being useful here, as other than a voltage level standard. I expect that of you. I don't know George so well. 
> > 
> > I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the other person sees the absurdity of what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.
> No, YOU haven't. I twice made the statements about the standard. 
> You didn't get the hint. Instead, you assumed I would engage you 
> in a pointless discussion about what the pinout *could* be. 
> 
> In plain english: THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE HERE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT THE DEVICE 
> THAT *YOU* SELECTED. (unless they want to do the work that you seem to be 
> avoiding in favor of being argumentative) 
> 
> You're the one who picked the device. Did you *expect* it to adhere 
> to a standard? ANY standard? If so, why? If not, why not? 
> 
> Spend a few dollars (as you've likely spent that much in *time*) 
> and buy one to examine -- if your attempts at getting answers 
> from the vendor leave you distraught.

Don, you very clearly have no understanding of the posts I have made.  Please don't bother to reply until you do.  

Thank you, 

-- 

Rick C.

-++-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 5:03:06 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
> On 27/03/2023 04:30, Rick C wrote: 
> 
> > Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed. 
> > 
> > Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You have gone completely off topic. 
> >
> Rick, why are /you/ here? You have been on Usenet for decades, but 
> still seem to struggle with the basics. 
> 
> A group like this is a discussion group. It is not your personal 
> support channel. 

Correct, but it is not appropriate to hijack a thread.  Doing that turns every group into s.e.d. 


> You do not have any rights to the group, or any rights 
> to the thread. If Don wants to post here, he can post here. If he 
> wants to ramble or rant (and he does like doing that - he has a lot of 
> experience and likes to share), that's his right and his choice. Ignore 
> his posts if you don't like them. 

Correct that I don't own the group or the thread.  I'm simply pointing out that in contrast to convention and courteous behavior, Don is trashing this thread.  


> You have spent this thread bullying and insulting people, pushing them 
> into doing your work for free. When it looks like some here might be 
> possible paid suppliers, you undermine and patronise them. 

LOL!  How on earth do you bully anyone in a newsgroup?  You are just being silly now. 


> When you come looking for help and advice, it's fair enough to disagree 
> - but we can do without the sarcasm and belittlement of your responses. 

I'm pretty sure Don is the only person I've been anything but polite to.  That's because Don has been anything but polite.  Don's posts have been like walking up to a couple of strangers on the street, having a conversation, and inviting himself to join in with comments that have nothing to do with what they were discussing.  Not acceptable there, not acceptable here. 


> And if you want to killfile me for writing some hard truths, go ahead. 
> But first you'll have to figure out how to use Usenet instead of blaming 
> Google Groups for your own problems.

Sounds like you are the one with complaints that would make you want to kill file someone. 

Bye

-- 

Rick C.

-+++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209