Quickie ZigBee Application Kit from Rabbit!

Joerg wrote:

> IMHO X10 failed to penetrate because it is not reliable. We have X10 and

More than that: the functionality it provides simply not useful to most
people. The demand for remote-controlled power outlets is simply not
enormous. People do not need to have remote-controlled drapes and light
dimmers. Many (majority?) of houses do not even have any dimmable
lights.

X10 is a [poorly-worded] answer looking for a question.

ZigBee is a more elegantly crafted answer, also looking for a question.

Hello Lewin,

> 
>>IMHO X10 failed to penetrate because it is not reliable. We have X10 and
> 
> More than that: the functionality it provides simply not useful to most
> people. The demand for remote-controlled power outlets is simply not
> enormous. People do not need to have remote-controlled drapes and light
> dimmers. Many (majority?) of houses do not even have any dimmable
> lights.
> 
> X10 is a [poorly-worded] answer looking for a question.
> 

Have to disagree here. To us as a rather typical household it has proven 
to be very useful. A few examples:

Alarm clock goes off, with us wanting to snatch just five more minutes 
of shut-eye. But, coffee needs to be ready by then or we won't have 
time. Press the magic button, a relay clicks in the kitchen, sleep those 
five mins more and the coffee will be ready anyway.

Working in the yard, got late and dark but wife still wants to play a 
game of table tennis (I don't because I always lose but I have to). Push 
another magic button and, voila, it's not dark anymore where the table is.

Forgot to turn on or off the driveway lights? Can't happen, X10 has 
already done that. From downstairs this would otherwise be a long trek 
towards the other end of the house. Plus when neighbors want to come by 
unexpected they don't have to stumble up a dark driveway.

What's that light that's still on? Who forgot to turn it off? No need to 
hop out of bed and go into the cold basement in the pajamas. Press a 
button, done.

And so on. Anyways, nearly every time visitors see this stuff they ask 
me whether I can install it in their homes. Which I politely decline 
because X10 is not reliable enough for my taste and you almost have to 
be an engineer to diagnose problems.

IMHO X10 did not make it for two reasons. One is technical issues. Two 
is lack of advertising. The latter is, in part, caused by a lack of 
interest by electricians because they fear too many after-sale issues.


> ZigBee is a more elegantly crafted answer, also looking for a question.
> 

Elegant, yes. But will it work in a house? Did the standards guys think 
about the fact that some of the insulating wool in walls and ceilings is 
aluminum backed?

For home automation in retrofit (and it's nearly always going to be a 
retrofit situation) I believe comms need to run two-pronged. Powerline 
plus RF. Not either-or. The only other scheme I see doing that is 
Insteon. A bit on the pricey side but who knows, maybe they make it into 
the big stores. IMHO a strong presence in the big box HW stores is the 
only way to make a market in home improvement.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Joerg wrote:

> >>IMHO X10 failed to penetrate because it is not reliable. We have X10 and
> >
> > More than that: the functionality it provides simply not useful to most
> > people. The demand for remote-controlled power outlets is simply not
>
> Have to disagree here. To us as a rather typical household it has proven
> to be very useful. A few examples:

Oh, no, no, Joerg - you are /not/ a typical household. Yes, those
particular things might be desirable (in an abstract sense) to the
average Joe Couch Potato, but the cost has to be zero and the
difficulty of installation has to be zero and the complexity of
troubleshooting has to be zero as well, otherwise it's not worth it.

It's just like having an Internet-connected touch-screen on the
refrigerator door. OK, fine, it looks cool. But it is not a feature for
which most people are willing to pay.

Put another way: Your grandma might go to Epcot and press a button, see
something happen, and say "wow!" - but she wouldn't then call a
contractor to install the same thing in her house.

The marketplace simply does not care about home automation. It has been
viable for at least 20 years, probably more (especially if you count
pneumatic solutions). The uptake has never been big.

Even I would not buy such equipment - and I can understand how to
install and debug it. It would add no utility to my life, since the
time I spend at home is almost entirely spent in my lab or outside
working on my cars.

> > ZigBee is a more elegantly crafted answer, also looking for a question.
>
> Elegant, yes. But will it work in a house? Did the standards guys think
> about the fact that some of the insulating wool in walls and ceilings is
> aluminum backed?

Yes, is the only answer I can give to that without getting into
employer-specific stuff :)

> For home automation in retrofit (and it's nearly always going to be a
> retrofit situation) I believe comms need to run two-pronged. Powerline

Google for "structured wiring" and you will see that there is
considerable market for this sort of thing in new home construction,
and comparatively little as retrofit to existing structures.

I remember very well in the UPnP discussions (back in the age before it
was proven to be worthless), the MS guys were really surprised when I
talked about retrofitting Ethernet to a home; they assumed that UPnP
products would be going mainly into new homes that had wired Ethernet
to every room built right into the original architectural design.

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> schreef in bericht 
news:LZ9Xg.11959$GR.9017@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...

> Alarm clock goes off, with us wanting to snatch just five more minutes of 
> shut-eye. But, coffee needs to be ready by then or we won't have time. 
> Press the magic button, a relay clicks in the kitchen, sleep those five 
> mins more and the coffee will be ready anyway.

Was that Charly Chaplin, who would step out of bed and only had
to pull a rope to get his trousers on? And pull another one to
make his bed tidy?

;)

-- 
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and '.invalid' when replying by email) 

Hello Lewin,

> 
>>>>IMHO X10 failed to penetrate because it is not reliable. We have X10 and
>>>
>>>More than that: the functionality it provides simply not useful to most
>>>people. The demand for remote-controlled power outlets is simply not
>>
>>Have to disagree here. To us as a rather typical household it has proven
>>to be very useful. A few examples:
> 
> Oh, no, no, Joerg - you are /not/ a typical household. Yes, those
> particular things might be desirable (in an abstract sense) to the
> average Joe Couch Potato, but the cost has to be zero and the
> difficulty of installation has to be zero and the complexity of
> troubleshooting has to be zero as well, otherwise it's not worth it.
> 
> It's just like having an Internet-connected touch-screen on the
> refrigerator door. OK, fine, it looks cool. But it is not a feature for
> which most people are willing to pay.
> 

X10 is a bit different. Even when I told visitors that this or that 
feature would probably cost a few hundred if an electrician were to 
install it they did not flinch. They really wanted to have it.


> The marketplace simply does not care about home automation. It has been
> viable for at least 20 years, probably more (especially if you count
> pneumatic solutions). The uptake has never been big.
> 

The marketplace hasn't been created. That's the problem. Now discount 
any engineering media you follow and just look at the media John and 
Jane Doe are exposed to: When is the last time you read, heard or saw HA 
in these? Ads, articles, blurbs, anything.


> Even I would not buy such equipment - and I can understand how to
> install and debug it. It would add no utility to my life, since the
> time I spend at home is almost entirely spent in my lab or outside
> working on my cars.
> 

My wife instantly love it. If I weren't married I'd probably not have 
X10 either.

BTW, a friend showed us his latest car treasure yesterday: A Cobra body, 
made in Poland from aluminum at a former aircraft factory, plus all the 
parts to build it. Blew me away.

> 
>>>ZigBee is a more elegantly crafted answer, also looking for a question.
>>
>>Elegant, yes. But will it work in a house? Did the standards guys think
>>about the fact that some of the insulating wool in walls and ceilings is
>>aluminum backed?
> 
> Yes, is the only answer I can give to that without getting into
> employer-specific stuff :)
>

Let's hope they thought about it hard enough then...

> 
>>For home automation in retrofit (and it's nearly always going to be a
>>retrofit situation) I believe comms need to run two-pronged. Powerline
> 
> Google for "structured wiring" and you will see that there is
> considerable market for this sort of thing in new home construction,
> and comparatively little as retrofit to existing structures.
> 

I have yet to see structured (home run) wiring in a regular new home.


> I remember very well in the UPnP discussions (back in the age before it
> was proven to be worthless), the MS guys were really surprised when I
> talked about retrofitting Ethernet to a home; they assumed that UPnP
> products would be going mainly into new homes that had wired Ethernet
> to every room built right into the original architectural design.
> 

I did retrofit Ethernet throughout this house. Got the scars to prove it 
from all those times I scraped a nail while crawling. No fun.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Hello Frank,

> 
>>Alarm clock goes off, with us wanting to snatch just five more minutes of 
>>shut-eye. But, coffee needs to be ready by then or we won't have time. 
>>Press the magic button, a relay clicks in the kitchen, sleep those five 
>>mins more and the coffee will be ready anyway.
> 
> Was that Charly Chaplin, who would step out of bed and only had
> to pull a rope to get his trousers on? And pull another one to
> make his bed tidy?
> 

Ours doesn't go quite that far. Yet.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

"Pat Farrell" wrote...
> Don wrote:
> > *Exactly*.  I looked seriously at ZigBee for a few product designs
> > and backed away from it, quickly.  For any *sustained* data rates,
> > it holds no advantages over BT (design an intercom system using
> > Zigbee and look at the power consumption  :> ).  And, it doesn't
> > "play well with others" (zigbee-enabled printer?  zigbee-enabled
> > cell phone??  zigbee-enabled keyboard?)
>
> That is not the design space for ZigBee. It is low data rate, low battery
> life. It is one, if not two, orders of magnitude lower power usage, with
> the restriction that it is orders of magnitude lower data rate.

Exactly!

Don wrote:
> steve wrote:
> >> Bingo! The importance of ZigBee is also that it is not only (usually) inexpensive, but
> >> most importantly it is very low power.
> >
> > Well, it's only low power when it's in beacon mode, it takes 20-40 mA
> > to transmit/receive, and looking at the datarates it's not any better
> > (mA/datarate) then bluetooth.
>
> Exactly.  Zigbee addresses the very low data rate market.
> Ideal (?) for something like HvAC control in a large facility.
> Or, energy management.  Where the cost of *wiring* far exceeds
> the cost of the device (assuming you can't come up with
> other clever solutions to eliminate that wiring) -- yet the
> device's communicaions requirements are essentally miniscule..

What about the cost of replacing a dead battery?

-a

Andy Peters wrote:
> Don wrote:
>> steve wrote:
>>>> Bingo! The importance of ZigBee is also that it is not only (usually) inexpensive, but
>>>> most importantly it is very low power.
>>> Well, it's only low power when it's in beacon mode, it takes 20-40 mA
>>> to transmit/receive, and looking at the datarates it's not any better
>>> (mA/datarate) then bluetooth.
>> Exactly.  Zigbee addresses the very low data rate market.
>> Ideal (?) for something like HvAC control in a large facility.
>> Or, energy management.  Where the cost of *wiring* far exceeds
>> the cost of the device (assuming you can't come up with
>> other clever solutions to eliminate that wiring) -- yet the
>> device's communicaions requirements are essentally miniscule..
> 
> What about the cost of replacing a dead battery?

Zigbee doesn't *require* the use of battery power  :>  I.e.
if you have a device with a ready source of AC mains power,
it is acceptable (desirable?) to use that.

Note that in these settings, "staff" are *frequently* present
in the room with the device.  And, since (these types of) batteries
are low voltage, "well understood" devices that "common folk"
can readily deal with, it is not unusual to expect a maintenance
person to replace a battery if needed -- without requiring a
licensed electrician to do so!

OTOH, running wires in these sorts of facilities (even low
voltage wire -- especially if it has to interface to a mains
voltage device) almost always involves "skilled/licensed labor".

You may have noticed that most electronic devices are not
repaired anymore -- simply replaced.  This is NOT because
the cost of the PARTS is prohibitive  :>

Don wrote:

> Note that in these settings, "staff" are *frequently* present
> in the room with the device.  And, since (these types of) batteries
> are low voltage, "well understood" devices that "common folk"
> can readily deal with, it is not unusual to expect a maintenance
> person to replace a battery if needed -- without requiring a
> licensed electrician to do so!

In installs of this type, batteries are generally considered a dealer
serviced item. I.e. it is a truck roll whether you need a $500 alarm
panel replaced, or a $0.79 AA cell. Battery life is a VERY serious
design consideration for these appliances.

Additionally, there are regulatory requirements on how power gets wired
to alarm hardware, which essentially leave you three choices for your
AC-powered alternative:

1. Install special boxes and conduits and have pipes running up the
walls,

2. Mount the radio device down where the outlets are, and where the
radio won't work well, or

3. Hire a licensed electrician [most installers are NOT licensed
electricians] to put an outlet at the appropriate height on the wall.
Which might not even be possible in certain structures.

This is the kind of thing I meant when I said there are special needs
and ZigBee doesn't meet them.