On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 21:26:34 GMT, Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:>Jack Peacock wrote: > >> "Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message >> news:vTash.2588$O02.10@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net... >> >>>Since I have to do a largish schematic and won't be in the office the >>>whole time I wanted to connect my trusty old trackball to a laptop. This >>>old mouse still boasts a, gasp, 9-pin serial connector. >>>Tried it on two laptops, a Dell and a new Twinhead that surprisingly also >>>came with a RS232 serial port. >> >> Not all RS-232 ports are created equal. If the trackball only has a 9 pin >> serial, it likely is powered by drawing current from the serial port. This >> was a common practice, but had problems. On a desktop, especially older >> ones, the RS-232 was powered from the PC's +/-12Vdc supply, plenty of >> current from the drivers. On newer boxes, in particular laptops, the serial >> port may only be 5 or 6 volts and practically no current from the charge >> pumps in the drivers. Your trackball may not have any power. > > >Yes, this was already pointed out and I guess you may be right. This >trackball was designed in the days where RS232 was truly 12V, or at >least more than 9V. The puzzler is that a Wang laptop from the late 80's >and also a Compaq Contura laptop from the early 90's were running that >same trackball just fine.Perhaps the answer is here... http://www.computing.net/beos/wwwboard/forum/285.html ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Old trackball won't work on modern laptops
Started by ●January 19, 2007
Reply by ●January 20, 20072007-01-20
Reply by ●January 20, 20072007-01-20
Jim Thompson wrote:> On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 21:00:23 GMT, "Robert" <Robert@yahoo.com> wrote: > > [snip] > >>Have you seen the other large Trackballs? >> >>Kensington makes quite a few. >> >>Here are two of the large ones: >>http://us.kensington.com/html/1436.html > > > That "Orbit" model bears a striking resemblance to a vintage Logitech > I had around 1990. Loved it. >But it ain't the good old Logitech Trackman. If there was a Nobel prize in ergonomics the Trackman designers deserve it. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
Reply by ●January 20, 20072007-01-20
Jim Thompson wrote:> On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 21:26:34 GMT, Joerg > <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote: > > >>Jack Peacock wrote: >> >> >>>"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message >>>news:vTash.2588$O02.10@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net... >>> >>> >>>>Since I have to do a largish schematic and won't be in the office the >>>>whole time I wanted to connect my trusty old trackball to a laptop. This >>>>old mouse still boasts a, gasp, 9-pin serial connector. >>>>Tried it on two laptops, a Dell and a new Twinhead that surprisingly also >>>>came with a RS232 serial port. >>> >>>Not all RS-232 ports are created equal. If the trackball only has a 9 pin >>>serial, it likely is powered by drawing current from the serial port. This >>>was a common practice, but had problems. On a desktop, especially older >>>ones, the RS-232 was powered from the PC's +/-12Vdc supply, plenty of >>>current from the drivers. On newer boxes, in particular laptops, the serial >>>port may only be 5 or 6 volts and practically no current from the charge >>>pumps in the drivers. Your trackball may not have any power. >> >> >>Yes, this was already pointed out and I guess you may be right. This >>trackball was designed in the days where RS232 was truly 12V, or at >>least more than 9V. The puzzler is that a Wang laptop from the late 80's >>and also a Compaq Contura laptop from the early 90's were running that >>same trackball just fine. > > > Perhaps the answer is here... > > http://www.computing.net/beos/wwwboard/forum/285.html >Found that and other links via Google before posting here but it all didn't help :-( -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
Reply by ●January 20, 20072007-01-20
Jim Thompson wrote:> On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 21:26:34 GMT, Joerg > <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote: > > >>Jack Peacock wrote: >> >> >>>"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message >>>news:vTash.2588$O02.10@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net... >>> >>> >>>>Since I have to do a largish schematic and won't be in the office the >>>>whole time I wanted to connect my trusty old trackball to a laptop. This >>>>old mouse still boasts a, gasp, 9-pin serial connector. >>>>Tried it on two laptops, a Dell and a new Twinhead that surprisingly also >>>>came with a RS232 serial port. >>> >>>Not all RS-232 ports are created equal. If the trackball only has a 9 pin >>>serial, it likely is powered by drawing current from the serial port. This >>>was a common practice, but had problems. On a desktop, especially older >>>ones, the RS-232 was powered from the PC's +/-12Vdc supply, plenty of >>>current from the drivers. On newer boxes, in particular laptops, the serial >>>port may only be 5 or 6 volts and practically no current from the charge >>>pumps in the drivers. Your trackball may not have any power. >> >> >>Yes, this was already pointed out and I guess you may be right. This >>trackball was designed in the days where RS232 was truly 12V, or at >>least more than 9V. The puzzler is that a Wang laptop from the late 80's >>and also a Compaq Contura laptop from the early 90's were running that >>same trackball just fine. > > > A "real" analog engineer would build an adapter box and supply > external power... perhaps even add circuitry to convert to USB ;-) >If I had my druthers, well, heck, maybe I do that. Went to a Cypress seminar the other day and one of the things they had us design was a I2C to USB converter. Changing that over to RS232-USB would be a mere mouse click on the screen with PSoC Express, then a wee compile run. And they let us keep the proto board... Just imagine, that would be a real nerd mouse: A Trackman, a largish Cypress demo board with flashing LEDs all over the place, a wall wart, lots of cables. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
Reply by ●January 20, 20072007-01-20
Joerg wrote:> Jack Peacock wrote: > >> "Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message >> news:vTash.2588$O02.10@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net... >> >>> Since I have to do a largish schematic and won't be in the office the >>> whole time I wanted to connect my trusty old trackball to a laptop. >>> This old mouse still boasts a, gasp, 9-pin serial connector. >>> Tried it on two laptops, a Dell and a new Twinhead that surprisingly >>> also came with a RS232 serial port. >> >> Not all RS-232 ports are created equal. If the trackball only has a 9 >> pin serial, it likely is powered by drawing current from the serial >> port. This was a common practice, but had problems. On a desktop, >> especially older ones, the RS-232 was powered from the PC's +/-12Vdc >> supply, plenty of current from the drivers. On newer boxes, in >> particular laptops, the serial port may only be 5 or 6 volts and >> practically no current from the charge pumps in the drivers. Your >> trackball may not have any power. > > > Yes, this was already pointed out and I guess you may be right. This > trackball was designed in the days where RS232 was truly 12V, or at > least more than 9V. The puzzler is that a Wang laptop from the late 80's > and also a Compaq Contura laptop from the early 90's were running that > same trackball just fine. >Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference: 12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.
Reply by ●January 20, 20072007-01-20
Joerg wrote:> Eeyore wrote: > > Joerg wrote: > > > >>Since I have to do a largish schematic and won't be in the office the > >>whole time I wanted to connect my trusty old trackball to a laptop. This > >>old mouse still boasts a, gasp, 9-pin serial connector. But you know how > >>it is, when you get used to a tool no matter how ancient you don't want > >>to miss it. Just as I still miss that wonderful Fahrvergnuegen of my > >>first car... > >> > >>Tried it on two laptops, a Dell and a new Twinhead that surprisingly > >>also came with a RS232 serial port. Neither recognized that anything > >>"new" was connected nor could I find any setup in Windows (one is XP, > >>the other NT/2000). I am sure I can dig out the old mouse drivers but > >>they are from the days when Windows were still those glass thingies that > >>you use Windex on. > >> > >>How do you get an old serial port mouse working on a "modern" laptop? > > > > > > Could you fit a PS/2 connector on the existing lead ? > > > > Yes but the new laptop does not have a PS/2 port anymore :-(You can get a USB to PS/2 adapter though. http://cgi.ebay.com/New-USB-to-PS2-Cable-Adaptor-4-Keyboard-Mouse-Ship-24hr_W0QQitemZ150082943852QQihZ005QQcategoryZ41993QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem for example Graham
Reply by ●January 20, 20072007-01-20
On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:53:14 -0800, David R Brooks <davebXXX@iinet.net.au> wrote:>Joerg wrote: >> Jack Peacock wrote: >> >>> "Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message >>> news:vTash.2588$O02.10@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net... >>> >>>> Since I have to do a largish schematic and won't be in the office the >>>> whole time I wanted to connect my trusty old trackball to a laptop. >>>> This old mouse still boasts a, gasp, 9-pin serial connector. >>>> Tried it on two laptops, a Dell and a new Twinhead that surprisingly >>>> also came with a RS232 serial port. >>> >>> Not all RS-232 ports are created equal. If the trackball only has a 9 >>> pin serial, it likely is powered by drawing current from the serial >>> port. This was a common practice, but had problems. On a desktop, >>> especially older ones, the RS-232 was powered from the PC's +/-12Vdc >>> supply, plenty of current from the drivers. On newer boxes, in >>> particular laptops, the serial port may only be 5 or 6 volts and >>> practically no current from the charge pumps in the drivers. Your >>> trackball may not have any power. >> >> >> Yes, this was already pointed out and I guess you may be right. This >> trackball was designed in the days where RS232 was truly 12V, or at >> least more than 9V. The puzzler is that a Wang laptop from the late 80's >> and also a Compaq Contura laptop from the early 90's were running that >> same trackball just fine. >> >Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier >power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones >had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference: >12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an >order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid >signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide >just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.Aha! Which says the solution is to provide 12V power to the track-ball and add some 1488's and 1489's to buffer the levels ;-) Or, as Joerg would do it... discretes ;-) A micro would be a suck solution ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●January 20, 20072007-01-20
On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:04:40 -0700, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote:>On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:53:14 -0800, David R Brooks ><davebXXX@iinet.net.au> wrote: >[snip]>>> >>Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier >>power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones >>had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference: >>12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an >>order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid >>signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide >>just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance. > >Aha! Which says the solution is to provide 12V power to the >track-ball and add some 1488's and 1489's to buffer the levels ;-) > >Or, as Joerg would do it... discretes ;-) > >A micro would be a suck solution ;-) > > ...Jim ThompsonJoerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port. What were the levels? ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by ●January 20, 20072007-01-20
Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:>Jim Thompson wrote: > >> On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 21:38:35 GMT, Joerg >> <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote: >> >> >>>Since I have to do a largish schematic and won't be in the office the >>>whole time I wanted to connect my trusty old trackball to a laptop. This >>>old mouse still boasts a, gasp, 9-pin serial connector. But you know how >>>it is, when you get used to a tool no matter how ancient you don't want >>>to miss it. Just as I still miss that wonderful Fahrvergnuegen of my >>>first car... >>> >>>Tried it on two laptops, a Dell and a new Twinhead that surprisingly >>>also came with a RS232 serial port. Neither recognized that anything >>>"new" was connected nor could I find any setup in Windows (one is XP, >>>the other NT/2000). I am sure I can dig out the old mouse drivers but >>>they are from the days when Windows were still those glass thingies that >>>you use Windex on. >>> >>>How do you get an old serial port mouse working on a "modern" laptop? >> >> >> Is it Logitech? > > >It is. > > >> Try their site. > > >Tried that. That model is long gone from there. I bet if I'd call they'd >suggest to try the Smithsonian museum ... > > >> ... It ought to work as an ordinary serial mouse PROVIDED you INSTALL it. >> > >Well, on the risk of totally embarrassing myself here, how do I do that >in them thar newfangled Windozes?Doesn't it recognise it when it is attached to the computer when it starts? I recall having used a serial mouse less than 2 years ago with an Win2000 machine. It was detected automatically during boot. Are you sure the trackball is working and the serial ports are enabled? -- Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.) Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl
Reply by ●January 20, 20072007-01-20
"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message news:oKvsh.2789$O02.694@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...> Robert wrote: >[snip]>> >> >> Have you seen the other large Trackballs? >> >> Kensington makes quite a few. >> >> Here are two of the large ones: >> http://us.kensington.com/html/1436.html >> > > These are good example of what they do wrong these days IMHO: The buttons > are to the sides and much too close to the ball. > > >> And then an even larger one with a 3 inch ball at: >> http://www.askergoworks.com/shopexd.asp?id=936 >> > > A little better but still, you'd almost have to operate the left button > with the thumb. > > The old Logitech is different from all of these. You can roll the ball > with the 2nd digit of your stretched out thumb and click the three buttons > with you stretched out fingers. No finger bending, cramping, whatsoever. I > can do that all day long and never feel any ever so slight pain or wear. > With "modern" mice it gets to the point where the thumb joint crackles > audibly, not good. > > -- > Regards, Joerg >Ergonomic Trackballs http://www.specialneedscomputers.ca/em-trackballs.htm Take a look at some alternative mouse technologies. They also have several Trackballs with large Balls and buttons either on external switches or spaced out further. http://www.spd.org.sg/programmes/atc_alternativemouse.html Robert
