Mentor Graphics Demanding Money with Menaces

Howdy Y'all :

Been using MGC (originally Innoveda) PCB tools for a few years - like 'em
Came to renew our (expensive but good) maintenance contract a few weeks ago
We had some internal re-organization so our PO had a different name at the 
top
MGC queried this, I sent them the standard blurb on the name change
Got a reply : "our legal people say you are a new entity, so it's $3+K to 
'transfer ownership'"

What the f**k ?

Anybody got any comments on :

1 - Is it legal under US anti-trust laws to put such constraints on 
ownership ? (Yes I know the EULA said MGC owns my first born child.....)
2 - We were, are, and always have been a wholly owned subsidiary of COMPANY 
A, so how does an internal re-organization constitute a change of ownership 
?
3 - Has anybody else had a similar experience with MGC ? How did it get 
resolved ?

There, now I've vented a bit. In 48 hours I've gone from a 100% positive 
experience of MGC (2am responses to service requests, requested features 
added to the next release etc) to feeling like I'm being robbed at 
knifepoint.

Well, since I've got a dozen boards at several revisions and my entire 
component database embedded in these tools, and it's only $3K.....pass the 
vaseline.

G 

Gary Pace wrote:

> Got a reply : "our legal people say you are a
> new entity, so it's $3+K to 'transfer ownership'"

That's obscene! I won't be hurrying to switch to Mentor any time soon now
that I've read that...

Regards,

-- 
Mark McDougall, Engineer
Virtual Logic Pty Ltd, <http://www.vl.com.au>
21-25 King St, Rockdale, 2216
Ph: +612-9599-3255 Fax: +612-9599-3266

"Gary Pace" <xxx@yyy> wrote in message 
news:46ef6387$0$26372$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Howdy Y'all :
>
> Been using MGC (originally Innoveda) PCB tools for a few years - like 'em
> Came to renew our (expensive but good) maintenance contract a few weeks 
> ago
> We had some internal re-organization so our PO had a different name at 
> the top
> MGC queried this, I sent them the standard blurb on the name change
> Got a reply : "our legal people say you are a new entity, so it's $3+K to 
> 'transfer ownership'"
>
> What the f**k ?
>
> Anybody got any comments on :
>
> 1 - Is it legal under US anti-trust laws to put such constraints on 
> ownership ? (Yes I know the EULA said MGC owns my first born child.....)
> 2 - We were, are, and always have been a wholly owned subsidiary of 
> COMPANY A, so how does an internal re-organization constitute a change of 
> ownership ?
> 3 - Has anybody else had a similar experience with MGC ? How did it get 
> resolved ?
>
> There, now I've vented a bit. In 48 hours I've gone from a 100% positive 
> experience of MGC (2am responses to service requests, requested features 
> added to the next release etc) to feeling like I'm being robbed at 
> knifepoint.
>
> Well, since I've got a dozen boards at several revisions and my entire 
> component database embedded in these tools, and it's only $3K.....pass 
> the vaseline.
>

You can often get excellent support by posting questions on the public PADS 
forum. Often questions get answered within the same day. You should post 
your situation there. Most people on that forum dislike the 
Maintenance/Support scam, and many have opted to let it expire (as I have). 
Their newer software releases have been riddled with bugs and problems. The 
forum can be accessed with a newsreader as listserver.pads.com/talk. You 
need to register, but it's free. There is also a web based browser that you 
can access from the Mentor website www.Mentor.com. I have rolled back to 
PADS2004sp2.

There is a MARLUG conference 
(http://www.mugweb.org/lugs/marlug/conferences/2007/index.html?PC=L&c=2007_08_marlug_invite) 
coming up in October. If you are close to Maryland it might be worthwhile 
to attend and beat up on some of the Mentor suits!

Paul 

"Gary Pace" <xxx@yyy> wrote in message 
news:46ef6387$0$26372$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Howdy Y'all :
>
> Been using MGC (originally Innoveda) PCB tools for a few years - like 'em
> Came to renew our (expensive but good) maintenance contract a few weeks 
> ago
> We had some internal re-organization so our PO had a different name at the 
> top
> MGC queried this, I sent them the standard blurb on the name change
> Got a reply : "our legal people say you are a new entity, so it's $3+K to 
> 'transfer ownership'"
>
> What the f**k ?
>
> Anybody got any comments on :


I had a similar experience once with a different supplier.  When we were 
setting up a new company we used a team of off site contractors to get the 
software off the ground quickly.  We purchased three seats of a software 
package in *our* new company name for their use (some &#4294967295;30K worth I think). 
When it came time to move from the contractor pool to our own in-house 
(newly recruited) team, we found that the software supplier would not permit 
us to move the floating licenses from one server to another.  It was 
apparently a 'site license', and we wanted to move the site.  They wanted 
the full price whack again!

Lesson learned.  We don't use that companies software any more.

-- 
Regards,
Richard.

+ http://www.FreeRTOS.org
13 official architecture ports, 1000 downloads per week.

+ http://www.SafeRTOS.com
Certified by T&#4294967295;V as meeting the requirements for safety related systems. 

On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 04:18:32 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen"
<pstech@smart.net> wrote:

>
>"Gary Pace" <xxx@yyy> wrote in message 
>news:46ef6387$0$26372$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>> Howdy Y'all :
>>
>> Been using MGC (originally Innoveda) PCB tools for a few years - like 'em
>> Came to renew our (expensive but good) maintenance contract a few weeks 
>> ago
>> We had some internal re-organization so our PO had a different name at 
>> the top
>> MGC queried this, I sent them the standard blurb on the name change
>> Got a reply : "our legal people say you are a new entity, so it's $3+K to 
>> 'transfer ownership'"
>>
>> What the f**k ?
>>
>> Anybody got any comments on :
>>
>> 1 - Is it legal under US anti-trust laws to put such constraints on 
>> ownership ? (Yes I know the EULA said MGC owns my first born child.....)
>> 2 - We were, are, and always have been a wholly owned subsidiary of 
>> COMPANY A, so how does an internal re-organization constitute a change of 
>> ownership ?
>> 3 - Has anybody else had a similar experience with MGC ? How did it get 
>> resolved ?
>>
>> There, now I've vented a bit. In 48 hours I've gone from a 100% positive 
>> experience of MGC (2am responses to service requests, requested features 
>> added to the next release etc) to feeling like I'm being robbed at 
>> knifepoint.
>>
>> Well, since I've got a dozen boards at several revisions and my entire 
>> component database embedded in these tools, and it's only $3K.....pass 
>> the vaseline.
>>
>
>You can often get excellent support by posting questions on the public PADS 
>forum. Often questions get answered within the same day. You should post 
>your situation there. Most people on that forum dislike the 
>Maintenance/Support scam, and many have opted to let it expire (as I have). 
>Their newer software releases have been riddled with bugs and problems. The 
>forum can be accessed with a newsreader as listserver.pads.com/talk. You 
>need to register, but it's free. There is also a web based browser that you 
>can access from the Mentor website www.Mentor.com. I have rolled back to 
>PADS2004sp2.

Yup. We jumped ship after Mentor bought PADS, at v5.0, 2002. Since
that software is perfect, why pay for support and future damage?

John

"FreeRTOS.org" <noemail@address.com> wrote in message 
news:%2MHi.16297$c_1.12990@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> "Gary Pace" <xxx@yyy> wrote in message 
> news:46ef6387$0$26372$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>> Howdy Y'all :
>>
>> Been using MGC (originally Innoveda) PCB tools for a few years - like 
>> 'em
>> Came to renew our (expensive but good) maintenance contract a few weeks 
>> ago
>> We had some internal re-organization so our PO had a different name at 
>> the top
>> MGC queried this, I sent them the standard blurb on the name change
>> Got a reply : "our legal people say you are a new entity, so it's $3+K 
>> to 'transfer ownership'"
>>
>> What the f**k ?
>>
>> Anybody got any comments on :
>
>
> I had a similar experience once with a different supplier.  When we were 
> setting up a new company we used a team of off site contractors to get 
> the software off the ground quickly.  We purchased three seats of a 
> software package in *our* new company name for their use (some &#4294967295;30K worth 
> I think). When it came time to move from the contractor pool to our own 
> in-house (newly recruited) team, we found that the software supplier 
> would not permit us to move the floating licenses from one server to 
> another.  It was apparently a 'site license', and we wanted to move the 
> site.  They wanted the full price whack again!
>
> Lesson learned.  We don't use that companies software any more.
>

The Mentor EULA even requires a formal site change if you move the site 
more than 1/2 mile from the original installation. So anyone who uses it on 
a notebook computer while traveling, or moves the dongle from work to home, 
is in violation. I don't know if they've ever enforced this requirement, 
but it seems way too restrictive. In the good old days of PADS, the 
corporate people were very nice, and they would allow transfer of license 
at no charge. And they gave me the opportunity to upgrade from my old MSDOS 
version that I got from a company I had worked for, to the latest version 
at that time, for only the maintenance charge of $500 for one year.

The EULA basically says that Mentor still owns the software you have 
purchased, and you are granted a license to use it for some period of time. 
If you buy the software, it is understood that they will grant a 5 year 
license if you are not on maintenance, or a 15 month license if you have 
purchased support. This was to remind you to renew the maintenance before 
it expired. This sounds like a renewable lease, rather than a purchase, and 
I think someone successfully sued Mentor for misrepresentation of the terms 
of purchase. They do also sometimes lease the software, and for that the 
expiring license is reasonable.

I think the 5.x version of software has a non-expiring license. So far I 
have been able to get a 5 year license for my software, but there is still 
some concern that they might change their policy, or even go out of 
business, and then you would be stuck with unusable expired software. I'm 
also concerned that my next computer may not have a parallel port for the 
dongle, and I would have to swap it for a USB dongle. And apparently their 
software does not run under Vista, and they are only planning to support 
that OS with their latest version of software.

Soon it will cost me as much to reinstate maintenance (which includes all 
back maintenance as well as a 40% penalty), as it would for a complete new 
seat. I think the break-even point is about three years.

There's also a cracked copy of 5.x available from Eastern Europe, and there 
will probably be a new cracked copy of the newer software when and if it 
becomes stable enough to use. At least with my PADS2004sp2 I can still 
revert files back to 5.x if I need to. The newer version does not allow 
that, at least for the schematic package PADS-Logic. And in PADS2005 they 
introduced TrueType fonts, and they changed the format for their library 
files, but they did NOT change the file extension or even the version 
number in the header, although the two are not compatible.

Paul 

Gary Pace wrote:
> Howdy Y'all :
> 
> Been using MGC (originally Innoveda) PCB tools for a few years - like 'em
> Came to renew our (expensive but good) maintenance contract a few weeks ago
> We had some internal re-organization so our PO had a different name at the 
> top
> MGC queried this, I sent them the standard blurb on the name change
> Got a reply : "our legal people say you are a new entity, so it's $3+K to 
> 'transfer ownership'"
> 
> What the f**k ?
> 
> Anybody got any comments on :
> 
> 1 - Is it legal under US anti-trust laws to put such constraints on 
> ownership ? (Yes I know the EULA said MGC owns my first born child.....)
> 2 - We were, are, and always have been a wholly owned subsidiary of COMPANY 
> A, so how does an internal re-organization constitute a change of ownership 
> ?
> 3 - Has anybody else had a similar experience with MGC ? How did it get 
> resolved ?
> 
> There, now I've vented a bit. In 48 hours I've gone from a 100% positive 
> experience of MGC (2am responses to service requests, requested features 
> added to the next release etc) to feeling like I'm being robbed at 
> knifepoint.
> 
> Well, since I've got a dozen boards at several revisions and my entire 
> component database embedded in these tools, and it's only $3K.....pass the 
> vaseline.

  Sounds like an admin stuff up. Sending in "the standard blurb on the 
name change", with no covering details, was probably not the best idea.
[but hindsight is a great thing :) ]

  Write to your distributor again, and emphasise this :
* Same Building
* Same desks
* Same guys operating the Sw, and same point of contacts
* same carparks
* same canteen
* Same phone no's - (same emails ?- good if they still work )
-etc-

Corporate renaming/rebranding is not uncommon, and is usually free.

Unfortunately, the corporate types that initiate this rebranding often
over-state the scope and effect....

-jg

PeteS wrote:
> Gary Pace wrote:
>> Howdy Y'all :
>>
>> Been using MGC (originally Innoveda) PCB tools for a few years - like 'em
>> Came to renew our (expensive but good) maintenance contract a few 
>> weeks ago
>> We had some internal re-organization so our PO had a different name at 
>> the top
>> MGC queried this, I sent them the standard blurb on the name change
>> Got a reply : "our legal people say you are a new entity, so it's $3+K 
>> to 'transfer ownership'"
>>
>> What the f**k ?
>>
>> Anybody got any comments on :
>>
>> 1 - Is it legal under US anti-trust laws to put such constraints on 
>> ownership ? (Yes I know the EULA said MGC owns my first born child.....)
>> 2 - We were, are, and always have been a wholly owned subsidiary of 
>> COMPANY A, so how does an internal re-organization constitute a change 
>> of ownership ?
>> 3 - Has anybody else had a similar experience with MGC ? How did it 
>> get resolved ?
>>
>> There, now I've vented a bit. In 48 hours I've gone from a 100% 
>> positive experience of MGC (2am responses to service requests, 
>> requested features added to the next release etc) to feeling like I'm 
>> being robbed at knifepoint.
>>
>> Well, since I've got a dozen boards at several revisions and my entire 
>> component database embedded in these tools, and it's only $3K.....pass 
>> the vaseline.
>>
>> G
>>
> 
> Tell em to F* Off and that you will use Cadence tools.
> 
> Mentor Graphics tools are 15 years behind anyway.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> PeteS

Note that I do not work for Cadence (and they have their own customer 
problems), but at least their tools are reasonably up to date.

Cheers

PeteS

Gary Pace wrote:
> Howdy Y'all :
> 
> Been using MGC (originally Innoveda) PCB tools for a few years - like 'em
> Came to renew our (expensive but good) maintenance contract a few weeks ago
> We had some internal re-organization so our PO had a different name at the 
> top
> MGC queried this, I sent them the standard blurb on the name change
> Got a reply : "our legal people say you are a new entity, so it's $3+K to 
> 'transfer ownership'"
> 
> What the f**k ?
> 
> Anybody got any comments on :
> 
> 1 - Is it legal under US anti-trust laws to put such constraints on 
> ownership ? (Yes I know the EULA said MGC owns my first born child.....)
> 2 - We were, are, and always have been a wholly owned subsidiary of COMPANY 
> A, so how does an internal re-organization constitute a change of ownership 
> ?
> 3 - Has anybody else had a similar experience with MGC ? How did it get 
> resolved ?
> 
> There, now I've vented a bit. In 48 hours I've gone from a 100% positive 
> experience of MGC (2am responses to service requests, requested features 
> added to the next release etc) to feeling like I'm being robbed at 
> knifepoint.
> 
> Well, since I've got a dozen boards at several revisions and my entire 
> component database embedded in these tools, and it's only $3K.....pass the 
> vaseline.
> 
> G 
> 
> 

Tell em to F* Off and that you will use Cadence tools.

Mentor Graphics tools are 15 years behind anyway.

Cheers

PeteS

"PeteS" <axkz70@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message 
news:Kv-dnUakDt6qr23bnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@pipex.net...
> Note that I do not work for Cadence (and they have their own customer 
> problems), but at least their tools are reasonably up to date.

I sincerely hope you don't include ORCAD in that statement!