OT? IDE flash drive in OLD pc.

On Dec 20, 11:36=A0pm, larwe <zwsdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 20, 2:20 pm, Didi <d...@tgi-sci.com> wrote:
>
> > I was about to suggest looking into the CF-cards, since they look
> > like ATA drives, but I did not know if there were any doing CHS.
>
> Sizes < 504Mb definitely work with CHS, my first CF-using product was
> CHS-only.

Wow, seems I will always keep on underestimating legacy forces no
matter how hard I try not to ... :-).
Do you know why they did CHS? Perhaps I did not underestimate
anything and it is just that the first cards came out a very
long time ago when there used to be no LBA (or it was too young
to be relied solely on)?

Dimiter

On Dec 21, 2:13 am, Didi <d...@tgi-sci.com> wrote:

> > Sizes < 504Mb definitely work with CHS, my first CF-using product was
> > CHS-only.
>
> Do you know why they did CHS? Perhaps I did not underestimate
> anything and it is just that the first cards came out a very
> long time ago when there used to be no LBA (or it was too young
> to be relied solely on)?

It's hard to speculate on the reasons. True-IDE mode is supposed to be
indistinguishable from a real HDD, and any real HDD under 504Mb (and
many larger) supports CHS. I wrote my first CF code in 1999, the
product was still viable in 2004 when the company in question went out
of business.

"Jim Stewart" <jstewart@jkmicro.com> wrote in message 
news:mPidnZ_mw739APfanZ2dnUVZ_qLinZ2d@omsoft.com...
> Not Really Me wrote:
>> Pardon if this is off topic too far.
>>
>> We would like to replace the hard drive in a '93 vintage PC with one of 
>> those little IDE flash drives that plugs right into the mb connector.
>>
>> The first attempt failed.  The bios is old enough that it won't 
>> auto-select the drive so the params have to be entered manually. 
>> Unfortunately the US dist doesn't understand the question on drive 
>> geometry.
>>
>> Does anyone know of an IDE flash drive that will work in an old pc (pre 
>> LBA capable)?
>
> I've had good luck using Mesa Engineering IDE
> to CompactFlash adapters in very old PCs.
>
>
Jim,

Thanks for the response.  We will give that a try.

Scott 

"Jim Stewart" <jstewart@jkmicro.com> wrote in message 
news:5rOdnX6L1NQxVvfanZ2dnUVZ_remnZ2d@omsoft.com...
> Ray Haddad wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:20:37 -0800 (PST), I said, "Pick a card, any
>> card" and Didi <dp@tgi-sci.com> instead replied:
>>
>>>>> Does anyone know of an IDE flash drive that will work in an old pc 
>>>>> (pre LBA
>>>>> capable)?
>>>> What flavor of PC is it? Is it an XT? 286? 386? 486? Pentium? Does
>>>> it even have an IDE port? You've left a lot of questions before you
>>>> can expect an answer.
>>> To those familiar with ATA - who are the obvious addressees of the
>>> query - the question is clear enough.
>>
>> Where did you see any addressees? I must have missed that. When
>> posting a technical question to a technical forum it is customary to
>> give all the details required for a qualified answer.
>>
>> You seem to forget that this newsgroup is searchable on Google
>> Groups meaning that without the qualifying parameters I requested
>> the thread is useless as far as newsgroup conventions goes. Unless,
>> of course, all details are provided in the query.
>>
>> Let's not forget about why newsgroups are here to begin with.
>
> From the original post, it seemed pretty clear
> to me that he needed some sort of IDE/ATA flash
> drive that was hardware compatible with a spinning
> drive and could be addressed by CHS.  If you
> didn't get that, I would think that proper
> nettiquite would be to just chill out and let
> the cavalry handle it.

It the risk of turning the flame back on, I didn't know all the answers at 
the time, but thought the information was adequate.  I was actually asking 
for an employee that isn't an NG user.

The pc is actually a 386.  It must have an IDE port, otherwise he wouldn't 
need an IDE hard disk replacment.  In truth, this is a floppy replacement. 
The system is working as a fairly sophisticated home controller.  The other 
option is buy a few spare floppy drives and a case of floppies while they 
are still available.  The floppies have been wearing out on rare occasions. 
I suppose a real hard drive is also an option.

You could argue that it should be replaced, but why turn a working system 
into recycled junk or landfill?  I would expect power supply mortality to be 
the biggest concern, but the system is old enough that the power supply (and 
fan) seems to have been made in the era when they were expected to last more 
than a year or two.

Jim's solution seems quite good.  The Mesa adapters are in the $15 range and 
you can put any CF card in them.

Merry Christmas and thanks to all who posted.

Scott

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 09:02:01 -0700, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
and "Not Really Me" <scott@validatedQWERTYsoftware.XYZZY.com>
instead replied:

>It the risk of turning the flame back on, I didn't know all the answers at 
>the time, but thought the information was adequate.  I was actually asking 
>for an employee that isn't an NG user.
>
>The pc is actually a 386.  It must have an IDE port, otherwise he wouldn't 
>need an IDE hard disk replacment.  In truth, this is a floppy replacement. 
>The system is working as a fairly sophisticated home controller.  The other 
>option is buy a few spare floppy drives and a case of floppies while they 
>are still available.  The floppies have been wearing out on rare occasions. 
>I suppose a real hard drive is also an option.

Thanks for clarifying. Sounds like the device wasn't exactly what
you needed. No wonder it didn't work right. Does the BIOS support a
floppy boot? Most do.
--
Ray

> The pc is actually a 386. =A0It must have an IDE port, otherwise he wouldn=
't
> need an IDE hard disk replacment. =A0In truth, this is a floppy replacemen=
t.

You will have little luck replacing an FDD with a CF card or other
ATA compatible device. FDDs on PCs go over a completely different
interface,
and the short answer to your query is that there is nothing you can
buy
and plug in which will make any flash card look like a floppy drive.

It can be made, of course - some of us here can design it for you :-).

Dimiter

------------------------------------------------------
Dimiter Popoff               Transgalactic Instruments

http://www.tgi-sci.com
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/

On Dec 21, 6:02=A0pm, "Not Really Me"
<sc...@validatedQWERTYsoftware.XYZZY.com> wrote:
> "Jim Stewart" <jstew...@jkmicro.com> wrote in message
>
> news:5rOdnX6L1NQxVvfanZ2dnUVZ_remnZ2d@omsoft.com...
>
>
>
> > Ray Haddad wrote:
> >> On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:20:37 -0800 (PST), I said, "Pick a card, any
> >> card" and Didi <d...@tgi-sci.com> instead replied:
>
> >>>>> Does anyone know of an IDE flash drive that will work in an old pc
> >>>>> (pre LBA
> >>>>> capable)?
> >>>> What flavor of PC is it? Is it an XT? 286? 386? 486? Pentium? Does
> >>>> it even have an IDE port? You've left a lot of questions before you
> >>>> can expect an answer.
> >>> To those familiar with ATA - who are the obvious addressees of the
> >>> query - the question is clear enough.
>
> >> Where did you see any addressees? I must have missed that. When
> >> posting a technical question to a technical forum it is customary to
> >> give all the details required for a qualified answer.
>
> >> You seem to forget that this newsgroup is searchable on Google
> >> Groups meaning that without the qualifying parameters I requested
> >> the thread is useless as far as newsgroup conventions goes. Unless,
> >> of course, all details are provided in the query.
>
> >> Let's not forget about why newsgroups are here to begin with.
>
> > From the original post, it seemed pretty clear
> > to me that he needed some sort of IDE/ATA flash
> > drive that was hardware compatible with a spinning
> > drive and could be addressed by CHS. =A0If you
> > didn't get that, I would think that proper
> > nettiquite would be to just chill out and let
> > the cavalry handle it.
>
> It the risk of turning the flame back on, I didn't know all the answers at=

> the time, but thought the information was adequate. =A0I was actually aski=
ng
> for an employee that isn't an NG user.
>
> The pc is actually a 386. =A0It must have an IDE port, otherwise he wouldn=
't
> need an IDE hard disk replacment. =A0In truth, this is a floppy replacemen=
t.
> The system is working as a fairly sophisticated home controller. =A0The ot=
her
> option is buy a few spare floppy drives and a case of floppies while they
> are still available. =A0The floppies have been wearing out on rare occasio=
ns.
> I suppose a real hard drive is also an option.
>
> You could argue that it should be replaced, but why turn a working system
> into recycled junk or landfill? =A0I would expect power supply mortality t=
o be
> the biggest concern, but the system is old enough that the power supply (a=
nd
> fan) seems to have been made in the era when they were expected to last mo=
re
> than a year or two.
>
> Jim's solution seems quite good. =A0The Mesa adapters are in the $15 range=
 and
> you can put any CF card in them.
>
> Merry Christmas and thanks to all who posted.
>
> Scott

Didi wrote:
> larwe <zwsdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
... snip ...
>>
>> Sizes < 504Mb definitely work with CHS, my first CF-using product
>> was CHS-only.
> 
> Wow, seems I will always keep on underestimating legacy forces no
> matter how hard I try not to ... :-).  Do you know why they did
> CHS? Perhaps I did not underestimate anything and it is just that
> the first cards came out a very long time ago when there used to
> be no LBA (or it was too young to be relied solely on)?

Because, once upon a time, disks came with H heads, which operated
on C circular paths, and read from (or wrote to) S sectors per
path.  To operate the disk you sought the appropriate path,
selected the appropriate head, let the system read the disk until
it found the appropriate sector, and then read or wrote onto it. 
You also had to consider the modulation format used, and a few
other things.  All those operations were performed by an interface
card (or other structure) that understood the particular disk.  You
really had a low-level format operation, which could set the bytes
per sector value, and thus also the S value.  If you had a bad
chunk you could arrange to not use one of the heads, although that
was rare.

Nowadays the whole schmeer is moved onto the disk mechanism, and
the commands are much simpler.  Set the LBA, and read/write, and
go.  But the basic mechanism is still there, except it is more
complex.  The S value may not be (probably isn't) constant.  The
idea is to get as much storage as possible onto one disk.

-- 
Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukah, Happy New Year
        Joyeux Noel, Bonne Annee.
Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
     <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>



-- 
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 08:36:02 -0700, "Not Really Me"
<scott@validatedQWERTYsoftware.XYZZY.com> wrote:

>Pardon if this is off topic too far.
>
>We would like to replace the hard drive in a '93 vintage PC with one of 
>those little IDE flash drives that plugs right into the mb connector.
>
>The first attempt failed.  The bios is old enough that it won't auto-select 
>the drive so the params have to be entered manually.  Unfortunately the US 
>dist doesn't understand the question on drive geometry.

Plug the flash drive into another pc and find out the CHS numbers it assigns
to the drive (by entering the bios setup, using some Norton tool, invoking
fdisk or whatever else). Write them down and use them for the old pc, and
you are set.

Mit freundlichen Gr&#4294967295;&#4294967295;en

Frank-Christian Kr&#4294967295;gel

Chuck,

> > CHS? Perhaps I did not underestimate anything and it is just that
> > the first cards came out a very long time ago when there used to
> > be no LBA (or it was too young to be relied solely on)?
>
> Because, once upon a time, disks came with H heads, which operated
> on C circular paths, and read from (or wrote to) S sectors per
> path. =A0To operate the disk you sought the appropriate path,
> selected the appropriate head, let the system read the disk until
> it found the appropriate sector, and then read or wrote onto it.

actually having written the firmware it takes to do that on
floppy disks for two different systems I had designed (using
the same FDC, the NEC uPD765) I know that.
 Back in 1986 or so it was far from trivial to make a 1 MHz 6809
(which was all i had access to...) read/write a HD disk (HD came
actually later, but DD 8" drives wroked at the same speed).

 I was wondering why CHS made it into CF cards. I know how
it made it into the ATA standard, actually this has been their
only addressing method at the begining .Baack then, in the
early 90-s, I opted for SCSI rather than ATA, which stopped
at 815 MB 2.5" drives and I had to do ATA as well, but then
they all supported LBA and I did not have to bother about
CHS.

 Because of the above - and perhaps other things I know - I know
the CF cards or whatever ATA compatible will be of no use to
the OP, he needs a floppy drive replacement which has
nothing to do with ATA. In fact, there may well be smoke
if he connects it there (but I don't know that).

Dimiter

------------------------------------------------------
Dimiter Popoff               Transgalactic Instruments

http://www.tgi-sci.com
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/


On Dec 22, 12:10=A0am, CBFalconer <cbfalco...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Didi wrote:
> > larwe <zwsdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ... snip ...
>
> >> Sizes < 504Mb definitely work with CHS, my first CF-using product
> >> was CHS-only.
>
> > Wow, seems I will always keep on underestimating legacy forces no
> > matter how hard I try not to ... :-). =A0Do you know why they did
> > CHS? Perhaps I did not underestimate anything and it is just that
> > the first cards came out a very long time ago when there used to
> > be no LBA (or it was too young to be relied solely on)?
>
> Because, once upon a time, disks came with H heads, which operated
> on C circular paths, and read from (or wrote to) S sectors per
> path. =A0To operate the disk you sought the appropriate path,
> selected the appropriate head, let the system read the disk until
> it found the appropriate sector, and then read or wrote onto it.
> You also had to consider the modulation format used, and a few
> other things. =A0All those operations were performed by an interface
> card (or other structure) that understood the particular disk. =A0You
> really had a low-level format operation, which could set the bytes
> per sector value, and thus also the S value. =A0If you had a bad
> chunk you could arrange to not use one of the heads, although that
> was rare.
>
> Nowadays the whole schmeer is moved onto the disk mechanism, and
> the commands are much simpler. =A0Set the LBA, and read/write, and
> go. =A0But the basic mechanism is still there, except it is more
> complex. =A0The S value may not be (probably isn't) constant. =A0The
> idea is to get as much storage as possible onto one disk.
>
> --
> Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukah, Happy New Year
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Joyeux Noel, Bonne Annee.
> Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
> =A0 =A0 =A0<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com

On Dec 21, 2:00 pm, Didi <d...@tgi-sci.com> wrote:

> the short answer to your query is that there is nothing you can
> buy
> and plug in which will make any flash card look like a floppy drive.
>
> It can be made, of course - some of us here can design it for you :-).

While this was not what the poster needed, I'm pretty sure such a
device is already on the market.

A primary application is older test equipment which wants to write
data to floppy disks.  Even if a floppy drive can be found in a modern
office, the reliability is often quite poor (both because 3.5"
reliability was never great once it went mass market, and because the
drives and media are now quite old).

As a result, I believe you can get adapters which go in place of the
floppy drive and take some form of modern flash memory - CF card or SD
card most likely.