On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 11:40:26 -0800 (PST), benn <benn686@hotmail.com> wrote:>Id like to design a simple board over the holidays, I've never layed >out a board before, so Im a little nervous :) > >I've started the schematic capture, and the routing and found a cheap >place to get it fabd. (I dont want to muddy the waters by doing a >homebrew pcb myself!) > >Id like to go with whatevers the cheapest to manufacture, so Im >thinking about the $65 single sided boards at www.olimex.com/pcb/ . >However, Im a little unsure about their requirements: > > >Does a "SINGLE SIDE SSS" normally mean that all the traces will be on >one side? i.e. I cant route vias from the bottom to the topside >inorder to ease the routing? I would prefer to have 2 signal >layers, (no power layers, etc) but this might be the more expensive >"DOUBLE SIDE BOARD" option? > >Also, does the standard drill tools (.7,.9,1,1.1,1.3,1.5,2.1,3.3mm) >refer to the thru-hole ICs (in case I have any)? > >Thanks!These guys do plated-through (2 sided) boards at reasonable prices. Quality is excellent. http://www.apcircuits.com/ John
1st Time PCB Design
Started by ●December 21, 2007
Reply by ●December 22, 20072007-12-22
Reply by ●December 22, 20072007-12-22
On Dec 22, 3:17 pm, John Larkin <jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:> On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 11:40:26 -0800 (PST), benn <benn...@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > > > >Id like to design a simple board over the holidays, I've never layed > >out a board before, so Im a little nervous :) > > >I've started the schematic capture, and the routing and found a cheap > >place to get it fabd. (I dont want to muddy the waters by doing a > >homebrew pcb myself!) > > >Id like to go with whatevers the cheapest to manufacture, so Im > >thinking about the $65 single sided boards atwww.olimex.com/pcb/. > >However, Im a little unsure about their requirements: > > >Does a "SINGLE SIDE SSS" normally mean that all the traces will be on > >one side? i.e. I cant route vias from the bottom to the topside > >inorder to ease the routing? I would prefer to have 2 signal > >layers, (no power layers, etc) but this might be the more expensive > >"DOUBLE SIDE BOARD" option? > > >Also, does the standard drill tools (.7,.9,1,1.1,1.3,1.5,2.1,3.3mm) > >refer to the thru-hole ICs (in case I have any)? > > >Thanks! > > These guys do plated-through (2 sided) boards at reasonable prices. > Quality is excellent. > > http://www.apcircuits.com/ > > JohnThanks, I'll definitely look into it. Im not set on Olimex, I just thought they were reasonably priced. The others I had looked at were: http://www.speedypcb.com/ http://www.silvercircuits.com/ Im sure they're all pretty much the same, but would like to go with one thats a bit more tolerant on a newbie and maybe even check my design to make sure I didnt do something dumb :)
Reply by ●December 23, 20072007-12-23
benn wrote:> > Thanks, I'll definitely look into it. Im not set on Olimex, I just > thought they were reasonably priced. The others I had looked at > were: > > http://www.speedypcb.com/ > http://www.silvercircuits.com/ > > Im sure they're all pretty much the same, but would like to go with > one thats a bit more tolerant on a newbie and maybe even check my > design to make sure I didnt do something dumb :)I like www.eurocircuits.com. For single boards they're a bit more expensive than olimex, but the prices drop quickly for moderate quantities, which is nice if the board works and you want to make a batch of them without changing suppliers. I also like their 6 mil traces/clearance, as well as their 0.25 mm holes.
Reply by ●December 23, 20072007-12-23
benn wrote:> On Dec 22, 3:17 pm, John Larkin > <jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >> On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 11:40:26 -0800 (PST), benn <benn...@hotmail.com> >> wrote:>> These guys do plated-through (2 sided) boards at reasonable prices. >> Quality is excellent. >> >> http://www.apcircuits.com/ >> >> John > > Thanks, I'll definitely look into it. Im not set on Olimex, I just > thought they were reasonably priced. The others I had looked at > were:Another endorsement for Alberta. The "how to submit your order" walk-through and clear layout requirements worked well; good boards on the first try. If you don't need the boards *quite* as fast, another place to look is the batch option from the Sparkfun guys at http://www.batchpcb.com/ The tutorials at http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/hdr.php?p=tutorials may also be of interest. If you go the Gerber route (nice, in that it means vendor independence) you'll want/need a viewer. Among the free ones out there you might want to give http://www.pentalogix.com/default.html a try. -- Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
Reply by ●December 24, 20072007-12-24
On 21 Dec, 20:40, benn <benn...@hotmail.com> wrote:> Id like to design a simple board over the holidays, =A0I've never layed > out a board before, so Im a little nervous =A0 :) > > I've started the schematic capture, and the routing and found a cheap > place to get it fabd. =A0(I dont want to muddy the waters by doing a > homebrew pcb myself!) > > Id like to go with whatevers the cheapest to manufacture, so Im > thinking about the $65 single sided boards atwww.olimex.com/pcb/. > However, Im a little unsure about their requirements: > > Does a "SINGLE SIDE SSS" normally mean that all the traces will be on > one side? =A0 i.e. I cant route vias from the bottom to the topside > inorder to ease the routing? =A0 =A0 =A0I would prefer to have 2 signal > layers, (no power layers, etc) but =A0 this might be the more expensive > "DOUBLE SIDE BOARD" option? > > Also, does the standard drill tools (.7,.9,1,1.1,1.3,1.5,2.1,3.3mm) > refer to the thru-hole ICs (in case I have any)? > > Thanks!Don't forget that Olimex hole sizes are non-plated. If you have a PTH double-sided board you need to allow for this, otherwise your holes will be too small. Leon
Reply by ●December 26, 20072007-12-26
On Dec 24, 3:29 pm, Leon <leon...@btinternet.com> wrote:> On 21 Dec, 20:40, benn <benn...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Id like to design a simple board over the holidays, I've never layed > > out a board before, so Im a little nervous :) > > > I've started the schematic capture, and the routing and found a cheap > > place to get it fabd. (I dont want to muddy the waters by doing a > > homebrew pcb myself!) > > > Id like to go with whatevers the cheapest to manufacture, so Im > > thinking about the $65 single sided boards atwww.olimex.com/pcb/. > > However, Im a little unsure about their requirements: > > > Does a "SINGLE SIDE SSS" normally mean that all the traces will be on > > one side? i.e. I cant route vias from the bottom to the topside > > inorder to ease the routing? I would prefer to have 2 signal > > layers, (no power layers, etc) but this might be the more expensive > > "DOUBLE SIDE BOARD" option? > > > Also, does the standard drill tools (.7,.9,1,1.1,1.3,1.5,2.1,3.3mm) > > refer to the thru-hole ICs (in case I have any)? > > > Thanks! > > Don't forget that Olimex hole sizes are non-plated. If you have a PTH > double-sided board you need to allow for this, otherwise your holes > will be too small. > > LeonThanks! I missed that little detail on their site! The Gerber export tutorial shows how to set the drill options, but I think this only sets how the drill information / gerbers are rendered, but doesnt actually set any design changes. Is this right, does the PTH / NPTH drill information need to be explicitly defined elsewhere (not just in the gerber output settings) prior to routing? Also, if they dont plate the holes wouldnt it just make the hole a bit roomier than if were plated? Since the footprint calls out for a particular thru-hole ic, even if theres wiggle room, as long as I solder on both sides of the board, it should be ok, no? I guess Im not sure whats the idea behind plated thru holes?
Reply by ●December 26, 20072007-12-26
benn <benn686@hotmail.com> writes:> Is this right, does the PTH / NPTH drill information need to be > explicitly defined elsewhere (not just in the gerber output > settings) prior to routing?I don't know about your cad program, but in general you tell the cad program that each hole is plated or non-plated, and it eventually spits out two drill files - one for all plated holes, one for all non-plated holes. I usually make my holes 5+ thou over the physical size, so the 1-2 thou that plating adds isn't a problem.> Also, if they dont plate the holes wouldnt it just make the hole a > bit roomier than if were plated?Two reasons: 1. the size is more precise, and 2. you don't need a copper annulus around it, so the thickness and flatness of the PCB at that point is more predictable.> Since the footprint calls out for a particular thru-hole ic, even if > theres wiggle room, as long as I solder on both sides of the board, > it should be ok, no? I guess Im not sure whats the idea behind > plated thru holes?Use plated holes when you're electrically connecting something. Use non-plated holes when needed for mounting and mechanical holes. If you can get away with only plated holes, it may be cheaper. Non-plated holes means an extra manufacturing step, plated holes are "standard". As for why they're needed - you can't always get to both sides. Think of a radial lead 1000uF capacitor - the cap covers the copper when plugged all the way into the board, there's no way to get in there with a soldering iron. But you can get away without plating, such as when home-brewing boards, if you carefully plan all your traces so they're always in a solderable location.
Reply by ●December 26, 20072007-12-26
On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:51:28 -0800 (PST), the renowned benn <benn686@hotmail.com> wrote:>On Dec 24, 3:29 pm, Leon <leon...@btinternet.com> wrote: >> On 21 Dec, 20:40, benn <benn...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> > Id like to design a simple board over the holidays, I've never layed >> > out a board before, so Im a little nervous :) >> >> > I've started the schematic capture, and the routing and found a cheap >> > place to get it fabd. (I dont want to muddy the waters by doing a >> > homebrew pcb myself!) >> >> > Id like to go with whatevers the cheapest to manufacture, so Im >> > thinking about the $65 single sided boards atwww.olimex.com/pcb/. >> > However, Im a little unsure about their requirements: >> >> > Does a "SINGLE SIDE SSS" normally mean that all the traces will be on >> > one side? i.e. I cant route vias from the bottom to the topside >> > inorder to ease the routing? I would prefer to have 2 signal >> > layers, (no power layers, etc) but this might be the more expensive >> > "DOUBLE SIDE BOARD" option? >> >> > Also, does the standard drill tools (.7,.9,1,1.1,1.3,1.5,2.1,3.3mm) >> > refer to the thru-hole ICs (in case I have any)? >> >> > Thanks! >> >> Don't forget that Olimex hole sizes are non-plated. If you have a PTH >> double-sided board you need to allow for this, otherwise your holes >> will be too small. >> >> Leon > >Thanks! I missed that little detail on their site! > >The Gerber export tutorial shows how to set the drill options, but I >think this only sets how the drill information / gerbers are rendered, >but doesnt actually set any design changes. Is this right, does >the PTH / NPTH drill information need to be explicitly defined >elsewhere (not just in the gerber output settings) prior to routing?Hole sizes are output in the Excellon drill file, which is similar to other CNC machine control file. It is an ASCII file that looks something like this: (I've replaced a bunch of similar lines with ... below). % T1C0.020F200S100 X001750Y008600 .. X023500Y019000 X028250Y008750 T3C0.035F200S100 X012000Y017500 .. X027000Y006750 T2C0.034F200S100 X012000Y023500 .. X023550Y007750 T5C0.054F200S100 X025000Y009250 X026000Y008250 X027000Y009250 T9C0.143F200S100 X002000Y002500 X002000Y022500 X026000Y015200 X027000Y002500 X027000Y022500 T8C0.128F200S100 X016250Y005390 T7C0.108F200S100 X014480Y004210 X016250Y003030 X018020Y004210 T4C0.040F200S100 X001250Y011000 ... X001250Y018000 T6C0.057F200S100 X006500Y002000 X008500Y002000 X010500Y002000 X012500Y002000 M30 This one is in inches. The lines beginnning with "T" are tool definitions (I think the associated feed rates and spindle RPM definitions are usually ignored or replaced). The first one (T1) is a 20 thou via drill. Each line beginning with X is a hole location (X, Y in inches with 0.0001" resolution). You can manually edit this kind of file to alter the drill sizes a bit, but it's best done very carefully, if at all, and checked with a viewer later to make sure that you've not introduced design rule violations such as drilling away too much of the pads. Typically the hole sizes are *defined* in the footprints.>Also, if they dont plate the holes wouldnt it just make the hole a bit >roomier than if were plated? Since the footprint calls out for a >particular thru-hole ic, even if theres wiggle room, as long as I >solder on both sides of the board, it should be ok, no? I guess Im >not sure whats the idea behind plated thru holes?On prototype PCBs often all the holes are plated through. To make some holes unplated costs more because it's a separate operation- and typically a separate drill file is generated, either automatically or by the vendor. It's not uncommon on production boards to specify some holes as unplated (eg. mounting holes or snap-in holes for connectors). Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Reply by ●December 26, 20072007-12-26
On 2007-12-26, benn <benn686@hotmail.com> wrote:>> Don't forget that Olimex hole sizes are non-plated. If you have a PTH >> double-sided board you need to allow for this, otherwise your holes >> will be too small. > > Thanks! I missed that little detail on their site!Yup. That's why the call them "drill sizes" not "finished plated hole sizes".> Also, if they dont plate the holes wouldnt it just make the hole a bit > roomier than if were plated? Since the footprint calls out for a > particular thru-hole ic, even if theres wiggle room, as long as I > solder on both sides of the board, it should be ok, no? I guess Im > not sure whats the idea behind plated thru holes?They connect traces on opposite sides of the board to be connected. Traditionally, one only solders one side of the board. I don't think most vendors have an options for non-plated holes on double-sided boards. -- Grant
Reply by ●December 28, 20072007-12-28
On 26 Dec, 19:51, benn <benn...@hotmail.com> wrote:> On Dec 24, 3:29 pm, Leon <leon...@btinternet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On 21 Dec, 20:40, benn <benn...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > Id like to design a simple board over the holidays, =A0I've never laye=d> > > out a board before, so Im a little nervous =A0 :) > > > > I've started the schematic capture, and the routing and found a cheap > > > place to get it fabd. =A0(I dont want to muddy the waters by doing a > > > homebrew pcb myself!) > > > > Id like to go with whatevers the cheapest to manufacture, so Im > > > thinking about the $65 single sided boards atwww.olimex.com/pcb/. > > > However, Im a little unsure about their requirements: > > > > Does a "SINGLE SIDE SSS" normally mean that all the traces will be on > > > one side? =A0 i.e. I cant route vias from the bottom to the topside > > > inorder to ease the routing? =A0 =A0 =A0I would prefer to have 2 signa=l> > > layers, (no power layers, etc) but =A0 this might be the more expensiv=e> > > "DOUBLE SIDE BOARD" option? > > > > Also, does the standard drill tools (.7,.9,1,1.1,1.3,1.5,2.1,3.3mm) > > > refer to the thru-hole ICs (in case I have any)? > > > > Thanks! > > > Don't forget that Olimex hole sizes are non-plated. If you have a PTH > > double-sided board you need to allow for this, otherwise your holes > > will be too small. > > > Leon > > Thanks! =A0 I missed that little detail on their site! > > The Gerber export tutorial shows how to set the drill options, but I > think this only sets how the drill information / gerbers are rendered, > but doesnt actually set any design changes. =A0 =A0 Is this right, does > the PTH / NPTH drill information need to be explicitly defined > elsewhere (not just in the gerber output settings) prior to routing? > > Also, if they dont plate the holes wouldnt it just make the hole a bit > roomier than if were plated? =A0 Since the footprint calls out for a > particular thru-hole ic, even if theres wiggle room, as long as I > solder on both sides of the board, it should be ok, no? =A0 I guess Im > not sure whats the idea behind plated thru holes?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -They do plate the holes, of course. You have to allow for the plating thickness. Leon
