Il 30/04/2013 13:43, Chad Williams ha scritto:
>
>
> Yes that free Atmel Studio 6 based on the Visual Studio 2010 shell is a
> real motivator to use Atmel parts,
> I have spent way to much time dealing with eclipse downloads, plugins
> etc for free ARM dev tools.
>
Technically there are many free IDEs based on Eclipse working well.
The
problems may arise if you want only one Eclipse that could work with
every ARM microcontroller. The main problems are concerned to the
debugger and to the registers view also if with Embedded Register View
(a free plugin for Eclipse) solves the 80% of the problems. Another
point is the necessary setup for the compilers. The Cross Compiler
option for Eclipse CDT needs that you have to setup every project from
the beginning or save a pseudo template and modify it every time. In my
opinion Eclipse CDT lacks the possibility to define user templates
(without write a plugin).
LpcXpresso and CooCox are 2 free IDEs based on Eclipse for ARM
microcontrollers, E2Studio is the same for Renesas microcontrollers but
the best part of Eclipse are the many plugins you may install.
Personally I don't like so much the VC/Atmel Studio 6 and also I
don't
like so much the MPLABX from Microchip based on NetBeans but they are
also good free products.
NXP Buys Code Red!
Started by ●April 30, 2013
Reply by ●April 30, 20132013-04-30
Reply by ●April 30, 20132013-04-30
I thought the PC-Link 2 announcement was more interesting than NXP
buying Code Red. Any comments on the limitations of LPC-Link 2?
Howard
buying Code Red. Any comments on the limitations of LPC-Link 2?
Howard
Reply by ●April 30, 20132013-04-30
> I thought the PC-Link 2 announcement was more
interesting than NXP buying
> Code Red. Any comments on the limitations of LPC-Link 2?
It's CMSIS-DAP and J-Link. What's not to like? CMSIS-DAP is a bit slow on
full speed devices, but acceptable on high speed. Doesn't do ARM7/9/11
though, so that is a limitation.
--
Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
SolderCore Development Platform http://www.soldercore.com
> Code Red. Any comments on the limitations of LPC-Link 2?
It's CMSIS-DAP and J-Link. What's not to like? CMSIS-DAP is a bit slow on
full speed devices, but acceptable on high speed. Doesn't do ARM7/9/11
though, so that is a limitation.
--
Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
SolderCore Development Platform http://www.soldercore.com
Reply by ●April 30, 20132013-04-30
Il 30/04/2013 19:25, Howard Hansen ha scritto:
>
>
> On 4/30/2013 5:12 AM, Leon Heller wrote:
> >
> > This is an interesting development:
> >
> >
> http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/nxp-buys-code-red-to-boost-microcontroller-ecosystem.html?cmp_id=7&news_id"2916708&vID 9
> >
> > Leon
> > --
> > Leon Heller
> > G1HSM
> >
> > __
>
> I thought the PC-Link 2 announcement was more interesting than NXP
> buying Code Red. Any comments on the limitations of LPC-Link 2?
>
It should be used only on Cortex-M microcontrollers I am not sure it
could be used with ARM7 and ARM9. I will receive one of them and then I
will test it. Anyway it is a good very low cost dongle that is usable
not only with LpcXpresso but also with Atollic, IAR and Keil suites.
I will try it also on a standard Eclipse CDT.
> Howard
>
>
>
>
> On 4/30/2013 5:12 AM, Leon Heller wrote:
> >
> > This is an interesting development:
> >
> >
> http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/nxp-buys-code-red-to-boost-microcontroller-ecosystem.html?cmp_id=7&news_id"2916708&vID 9
> >
> > Leon
> > --
> > Leon Heller
> > G1HSM
> >
> > __
>
> I thought the PC-Link 2 announcement was more interesting than NXP
> buying Code Red. Any comments on the limitations of LPC-Link 2?
>
It should be used only on Cortex-M microcontrollers I am not sure it
could be used with ARM7 and ARM9. I will receive one of them and then I
will test it. Anyway it is a good very low cost dongle that is usable
not only with LpcXpresso but also with Atollic, IAR and Keil suites.
I will try it also on a standard Eclipse CDT.
> Howard
>
>
Reply by ●April 30, 20132013-04-30
Interesting. The only problem now for customers is that Atmel has AS6/GCC,
NXP has Eclipse/GCC, EM has True Studio/GCC, etc. except that not all GCC
or IDE are the same, so the only thing it does is to lock you in within
that Si Vendor.
If you go with something like Cross Works or our ICC tools with IDE based
on CodeBlocks, or even IAR, our IDEs are much light weight than Eclipse,
and we do not use GDB as debug engine, and we support all vendors.
Our non-commercial use license is $99, add a Segger -EDU jlink for $50 and
it's as low as you get. Crosswork has something similar at slightly higher
price.
NXP has Eclipse/GCC, EM has True Studio/GCC, etc. except that not all GCC
or IDE are the same, so the only thing it does is to lock you in within
that Si Vendor.
If you go with something like Cross Works or our ICC tools with IDE based
on CodeBlocks, or even IAR, our IDEs are much light weight than Eclipse,
and we do not use GDB as debug engine, and we support all vendors.
Our non-commercial use license is $99, add a Segger -EDU jlink for $50 and
it's as low as you get. Crosswork has something similar at slightly higher
price.
Reply by ●April 30, 20132013-04-30
Il 30/04/2013 22:52, Richard Man ha scritto:
> Interesting. The only problem now for customers is that Atmel has AS6/GCC,
> NXP has Eclipse/GCC, EM has True Studio/GCC, etc. except that not all GCC
> or IDE are the same, so the only thing it does is to lock you in within
> that Si Vendor.
This is an annoying marketing problem, probably because the hw is more
similar then in the past they think that change the development tools
will discourage to change the microcontroller vendor but this in my
experience is totally wrong.
The problem about GCC should be solved because ARM is delivering its GCC
from more or less 2 years ago.
Also the nano library solved some problems about the space requited for
newlib.
Another point to consider is that Linux, RT-Linux and Linux Embedded use
GCC as their native C/C++ compilers and GCC compilers in every variant
are more or less identical and you don't require to modify the source
code for more or less little differences.
>
> If you go with something like Cross Works or our ICC tools with IDE based
> on CodeBlocks, or even IAR, our IDEs are much light weight than Eclipse,
> and we do not use GDB as debug engine, and we support all vendors.
Yes, true. Also if the weight of Eclipse is not so bad and compared with
so many useful plugins it is not a disadvantage.
I think that plugins as Mylyn and bug management connectors as Bugzilla,
Trac, Mantis and Jira help a lot.
Interestingly both Keil and IAR offer an Eclipse plugin.
>
> Our non-commercial use license is $99, add a Segger -EDU jlink for $50 and
> it's as low as you get. Crosswork has something similar at slightly higher
> price.
The problem is not the non-commercial license price, it is the
commercial license price.
In my personal opinion IAR, Keil and ARM tool-suites have a too high price.
> Interesting. The only problem now for customers is that Atmel has AS6/GCC,
> NXP has Eclipse/GCC, EM has True Studio/GCC, etc. except that not all GCC
> or IDE are the same, so the only thing it does is to lock you in within
> that Si Vendor.
This is an annoying marketing problem, probably because the hw is more
similar then in the past they think that change the development tools
will discourage to change the microcontroller vendor but this in my
experience is totally wrong.
The problem about GCC should be solved because ARM is delivering its GCC
from more or less 2 years ago.
Also the nano library solved some problems about the space requited for
newlib.
Another point to consider is that Linux, RT-Linux and Linux Embedded use
GCC as their native C/C++ compilers and GCC compilers in every variant
are more or less identical and you don't require to modify the source
code for more or less little differences.
>
> If you go with something like Cross Works or our ICC tools with IDE based
> on CodeBlocks, or even IAR, our IDEs are much light weight than Eclipse,
> and we do not use GDB as debug engine, and we support all vendors.
Yes, true. Also if the weight of Eclipse is not so bad and compared with
so many useful plugins it is not a disadvantage.
I think that plugins as Mylyn and bug management connectors as Bugzilla,
Trac, Mantis and Jira help a lot.
Interestingly both Keil and IAR offer an Eclipse plugin.
>
> Our non-commercial use license is $99, add a Segger -EDU jlink for $50 and
> it's as low as you get. Crosswork has something similar at slightly higher
> price.
The problem is not the non-commercial license price, it is the
commercial license price.
In my personal opinion IAR, Keil and ARM tool-suites have a too high price.
Reply by ●April 30, 20132013-04-30
>> Our non-commercial use license is $99, add a Segger
-EDU jlink for $50 and
>> it's as low as you get. Crosswork has something similar at slightly higher
>> price.
> The problem is not the non-commercial license price, it is the
> commercial license price.
> In my personal opinion IAR, Keil and ARM tool-suites have a too high price.
Take a look at Green Hills as a price point. :-)
Pricing is always tricky. If you can charge $6k for a toolset, and customers purchase it (though they might complain), well, why not do that?
A race to the bottom helps nobody--doesn't help the customer, doesn't help the vendor, and are as hell doesn't help competition, innovation, and progress. Remember, you don't want your tool vendor to go out of business because you took a short-term view and squeezed them on price!
--
Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
SolderCore Development Platform http://www.soldercore.com
>> it's as low as you get. Crosswork has something similar at slightly higher
>> price.
> The problem is not the non-commercial license price, it is the
> commercial license price.
> In my personal opinion IAR, Keil and ARM tool-suites have a too high price.
Take a look at Green Hills as a price point. :-)
Pricing is always tricky. If you can charge $6k for a toolset, and customers purchase it (though they might complain), well, why not do that?
A race to the bottom helps nobody--doesn't help the customer, doesn't help the vendor, and are as hell doesn't help competition, innovation, and progress. Remember, you don't want your tool vendor to go out of business because you took a short-term view and squeezed them on price!
--
Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
SolderCore Development Platform http://www.soldercore.com
Reply by ●April 30, 20132013-04-30
> > Our non-commercial use license is $99, add a Segger
-EDU jlink for $50 and
> > it's as low as you get. Crosswork has something similar at slightly higher
> > price.
> The problem is not the non-commercial license price, it is the
> commercial license price.
> In my personal opinion IAR, Keil and ARM tool-suites have a too high price.
> >
What is 'a too high price' and why do you think it is too high?
What price do you think a professional tool should be? How do you arrive at that figure?
What percentage of your business expenses are spent on your software tools?
What percentage do you think would be reasonable?
> > it's as low as you get. Crosswork has something similar at slightly higher
> > price.
> The problem is not the non-commercial license price, it is the
> commercial license price.
> In my personal opinion IAR, Keil and ARM tool-suites have a too high price.
> >
What is 'a too high price' and why do you think it is too high?
What price do you think a professional tool should be? How do you arrive at that figure?
What percentage of your business expenses are spent on your software tools?
What percentage do you think would be reasonable?
Reply by ●April 30, 20132013-04-30
Our commercial tool is $249 and $499 includes a (non-GDB homegrown)
debugger. Crosswork is somewhat higher at $1500. Any commercial project
should be able to afford our tools, if not Crosswork's.
Yes, you can pay $4000 for IAR/Keil or more for $6000, but you don't have
to.
It's very funny, one user just switched from GCC AVR to our ICC AVR, he had
some questions and wondered how to access our mailing list. I told him
about the list and made it clear that if it's a compiler or even C language
question, he can and should ask us. Our users are more familiar with the
1000s of AVRs and hardware but WE support the compiler. While Atmel owns
AS6 and by proxy, supports GCCAVR, they still do not take ownership of the
compiler tools and you are on your own when it comes to compiler questions.
debugger. Crosswork is somewhat higher at $1500. Any commercial project
should be able to afford our tools, if not Crosswork's.
Yes, you can pay $4000 for IAR/Keil or more for $6000, but you don't have
to.
It's very funny, one user just switched from GCC AVR to our ICC AVR, he had
some questions and wondered how to access our mailing list. I told him
about the list and made it clear that if it's a compiler or even C language
question, he can and should ask us. Our users are more familiar with the
1000s of AVRs and hardware but WE support the compiler. While Atmel owns
AS6 and by proxy, supports GCCAVR, they still do not take ownership of the
compiler tools and you are on your own when it comes to compiler questions.
Reply by ●April 30, 20132013-04-30
Il 30/04/2013 23:15, Paul Curtis ha scritto:
>
>
> >> Our non-commercial use license is $99, add a Segger -EDU jlink for
> $50 and
> >> it's as low as you get. Crosswork has something similar at slightly
> higher
> >> price.
> > The problem is not the non-commercial license price, it is the
> > commercial license price.
> > In my personal opinion IAR, Keil and ARM tool-suites have a too high
> price.
>
> Take a look at Green Hills as a price point. :-)
>
Yes, it is higher.
> Pricing is always tricky. If you can charge $6k for a toolset, and
> customers purchase it (though they might complain), well, why not do that?
>
This should be true but the market is changed and you can't imagine how
many customers I had that didn't want to buy too much expensive tools
also because normally you don't need only 1 license. Surely you can say
that 1 tool cost is more or less 50 to 100 hours of work and that to
setup a GCC toolsuite you could need 40 to 50 hours but you really do it
only 1 time.
> A race to the bottom helps nobody--doesn't help the customer, doesn't
> help the vendor, and are as hell doesn't help competition, innovation,
> and progress. Remember, you don't want your tool vendor to go out of
> business because you took a short-term view and squeezed them on price!
>
I understand that you develop and sell Crossworks so I think that your
opinion is influenced from your business and the effort you spend daily
to improve and develop it, I think you know perfectly the effort
necessary to realize it. But from my point of view it is only a tool I
need to do my job and so there are times that my customer can pay to
have the best tool and times they can't.
>
>
> >> Our non-commercial use license is $99, add a Segger -EDU jlink for
> $50 and
> >> it's as low as you get. Crosswork has something similar at slightly
> higher
> >> price.
> > The problem is not the non-commercial license price, it is the
> > commercial license price.
> > In my personal opinion IAR, Keil and ARM tool-suites have a too high
> price.
>
> Take a look at Green Hills as a price point. :-)
>
Yes, it is higher.
> Pricing is always tricky. If you can charge $6k for a toolset, and
> customers purchase it (though they might complain), well, why not do that?
>
This should be true but the market is changed and you can't imagine how
many customers I had that didn't want to buy too much expensive tools
also because normally you don't need only 1 license. Surely you can say
that 1 tool cost is more or less 50 to 100 hours of work and that to
setup a GCC toolsuite you could need 40 to 50 hours but you really do it
only 1 time.
> A race to the bottom helps nobody--doesn't help the customer, doesn't
> help the vendor, and are as hell doesn't help competition, innovation,
> and progress. Remember, you don't want your tool vendor to go out of
> business because you took a short-term view and squeezed them on price!
>
I understand that you develop and sell Crossworks so I think that your
opinion is influenced from your business and the effort you spend daily
to improve and develop it, I think you know perfectly the effort
necessary to realize it. But from my point of view it is only a tool I
need to do my job and so there are times that my customer can pay to
have the best tool and times they can't.
