I believe you mean thermal noise from carbon resistors. It is a good source
for white noise (if I am not mistaken) while Zener diodes would give most
known pink noise.
What sort of power output you have got with that 3D resitor array? What was
the primary source? Thermal or Electrostatic?


-----Original Message-----
From: msp430@msp4... [mailto:msp430@msp4...] On Behalf Of
Onestone
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 3:57 PM
To: msp430@msp4...
Subject: Re: [msp430] Random generator initialisation


To go slightly OT (what me!). the reason why I used carbon resistors was 
based around a 'Wireless World' article on 'free energy'. It
had 
proposed a 3D array of noisy carbon resistors as a possible low current 
power source. I tried it, since I had loads of 'scrap' carbon
resistors, 
and it worked, although you couldn't run much off it. An MSP430 would 
possibly have worked, but this was well before that era. I remembered 
from these experiments just how noisy the carbon resistors had been, and 
when I needed random they seemed just the job.

Al

Leon Heller wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "augusto einsfeldt" <aee@aee@...>
>To: <msp430@msp4...>
>Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 1:22 PM
>Subject: RE: [msp430] Random generator initialisation
>
>
>  
>
>>I believe another way, without the need of an ADC, would be using the 
>>comparator (present in all MSP flavors) plus any flavor of internal 
>>timer and a pink or white noise generator similar to AL's.
>>    
>>
>
>Zener diodes are very noisy and are often used as noise generators.
>
>Leon.
>
>
>
>.
>
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>  
>



.

 
Yahoo! Groups Links



 



-- 
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.7 - Release Date: 9/5/2005
 

Onestone, 
energy from noisy resistors, wow! Do you have some more information about it?
How did you rectify the noisy AC? Is this really possible? (sounds like a
april's foul)

Matthias

On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 04:26:45AM +0930, Onestone
wrote:
> To go slightly OT (what me!). the reason why I used carbon resistors was 
> based around a 'Wireless World' article on 'free
energy'. It had 
> proposed a 3D array of noisy carbon resistors as a possible low current 
> power source. I tried it, since I had loads of 'scrap' carbon
resistors, 
> and it worked, although you couldn't run much off it. An MSP430 would 
> possibly have worked, but this was well before that era. I remembered 
> from these experiments just how noisy the carbon resistors had been, and 
> when I needed random they seemed just the job.
> 
> Al
> 
> Leon Heller wrote:
> 
> >----- Original Message ----- 
> >From: "augusto einsfeldt" <aee@aee@...>
> >To: <msp430@msp4...>
> >Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 1:22 PM
> >Subject: RE: [msp430] Random generator initialisation
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >>I believe another way, without the need of an ADC, would be using
the
> >>comparator (present in all MSP flavors) plus any flavor of internal
timer
> >>and a pink or white noise generator similar to AL's.
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >Zener diodes are very noisy and are often used as noise generators.
> >
> >Leon.
> >
> >
> >
> >.
> >
> > 
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
        Matthias

augusto einsfeldt wrote:

>I believe you mean thermal noise from carbon
resistors. It is a good source
>for white noise (if I am not mistaken) while Zener diodes would give most
>known pink noise.
>What sort of power output you have got with that 3D resitor array? What was
>the primary source? Thermal or Electrostatic?
>
The noise source was primarily Thermal IIRC, I recall playing around 
with it in the oven to see what happened. It was a very very long time 
ago. The article showed a huge 3D array of resistors as a  PSU. When I 
first tinkered with it I drove a small 2 transistor multivib based noise 
maker. Later I was only concerned with noise.

Al

>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: msp430@msp4... [mailto:msp430@msp4...] On Behalf Of
>Onestone
>Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 3:57 PM
>To: msp430@msp4...
>Subject: Re: [msp430] Random generator initialisation
>
>
>To go slightly OT (what me!). the reason why I used carbon resistors was 
>based around a 'Wireless World' article on 'free
energy'. It had 
>proposed a 3D array of noisy carbon resistors as a possible low current 
>power source. I tried it, since I had loads of 'scrap' carbon
resistors, 
>and it worked, although you couldn't run much off it. An MSP430 would 
>possibly have worked, but this was well before that era. I remembered 
>from these experiments just how noisy the carbon resistors had been, and 
>when I needed random they seemed just the job.
>
>Al
>
>Leon Heller wrote:
>
>  
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "augusto einsfeldt" <aee@aee@...>
>>To: <msp430@msp4...>
>>Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 1:22 PM
>>Subject: RE: [msp430] Random generator initialisation
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>I believe another way, without the need of an ADC, would be using
the 
>>>comparator (present in all MSP flavors) plus any flavor of internal 
>>>timer and a pink or white noise generator similar to AL's.
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Zener diodes are very noisy and are often used as noise generators.
>>
>>Leon.
>>
>>
>>
>>.
>>
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>.
>
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>  
>

No it wasn't an April fool, or, if it was, it worked. Not so well that

you could ever use it practically. The small multivib I powered required 
a couple of hundred resistors, and it's quite possible that a fair 
amount of the 'signal' was coming from locally radiated noise. This 
isn't really any different to powering an MSP from a lemon, in fact a 
slice of lemon is enough. It's cool, it's out there, but it's a
million  
miles from practical. The first time I saw this was almost certainly in 
my hobby era, ie over 35years ago. transistors were really new, to most 
hobby mags then, and the odd circuit crept in. I may be wildly wrong 
here but I believe the article may have been a sort of left handed 
illustration of how little power transistors used compared to valves. I 
think it was repeated many years later. It works, it isn't useful, but 
it's no more magical than keyless entry devices deriving their power 
apparently from 'thin air'. In my very early experiments with this 
concept, probably around 89-90 I had no trouble getting a small amount 
of power, but often I would power up just from atmospherics, not the 
nominally tuned frequency, the problem was getting something small, and 
spot tuned to a frequency that wasn't active all the time. I have seen 
some commercial parts power up 'spontaneously', so a milliamp or two 
from noise shouldn't come as a surprise. The other hard thing was 
finding something to power that needed little or no current.

Al

Matthias Weingart wrote:

>Onestone, 
>energy from noisy resistors, wow! Do you have some more information about
it?
>How did you rectify the noisy AC? Is this really possible? (sounds like a
april's foul)
>
>Matthias
>
>On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 04:26:45AM +0930, Onestone wrote:
>  
>
>>To go slightly OT (what me!). the reason why I used carbon resistors was

>>based around a 'Wireless World' article on 'free
energy'. It had 
>>proposed a 3D array of noisy carbon resistors as a possible low current 
>>power source. I tried it, since I had loads of 'scrap' carbon
resistors, 
>>and it worked, although you couldn't run much off it. An MSP430
would 
>>possibly have worked, but this was well before that era. I remembered 
>>from these experiments just how noisy the carbon resistors had been, and

>>when I needed random they seemed just the job.
>>
>>Al
>>
>>Leon Heller wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>From: "augusto einsfeldt" <aee@aee@...>
>>>To: <msp430@msp4...>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 1:22 PM
>>>Subject: RE: [msp430] Random generator initialisation
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>I believe another way, without the need of an ADC, would be
using the
>>>>comparator (present in all MSP flavors) plus any flavor of
internal timer
>>>>and a pink or white noise generator similar to AL's.
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Zener diodes are very noisy and are often used as noise generators.
>>>
>>>Leon.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>.
>>>
>>>
>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>
>>.
>>
>> 
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>        Matthias
>
>
>.
>
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>  
>

Al,
You remaind me of Tom Bearden that was powering 500W bulbs with an input
of only 30uA :):):)
http://www.cheniere.org/

alex



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Onestone" <onestone@ones...>
To: <msp430@msp4...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [msp430] Random generator initialisation


> No it wasn't an April fool, or, if it was, it
worked. Not so well that
> you could ever use it practically. The small multivib I powered required
> a couple of hundred resistors, and it's quite possible that a fair
> amount of the 'signal' was coming from locally radiated noise.
This
> isn't really any different to powering an MSP from a lemon, in fact a
> slice of lemon is enough. It's cool, it's out there, but
it's a million
> miles from practical. The first time I saw this was almost certainly in
> my hobby era, ie over 35years ago. transistors were really new, to most
> hobby mags then, and the odd circuit crept in. I may be wildly wrong
> here but I believe the article may have been a sort of left handed
> illustration of how little power transistors used compared to valves. I
> think it was repeated many years later. It works, it isn't useful, but
> it's no more magical than keyless entry devices deriving their power
> apparently from 'thin air'. In my very early experiments with
this
> concept, probably around 89-90 I had no trouble getting a small amount
> of power, but often I would power up just from atmospherics, not the
> nominally tuned frequency, the problem was getting something small, and
> spot tuned to a frequency that wasn't active all the time. I have seen
> some commercial parts power up 'spontaneously', so a milliamp or
two
> from noise shouldn't come as a surprise. The other hard thing was
> finding something to power that needed little or no current.
>
> Al
>
> Matthias Weingart wrote:
>
> >Onestone,
> >energy from noisy resistors, wow! Do you have some more information
about
it?
> >How did you rectify the noisy AC? Is this
really possible? (sounds like a
april's foul)
> >
> >Matthias
> >
> >On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 04:26:45AM +0930, Onestone wrote:
> >
> >
> >>To go slightly OT (what me!). the reason why I used carbon
resistors was
> >>based around a 'Wireless World' article on 'free
energy'. It had
> >>proposed a 3D array of noisy carbon resistors as a possible low
current
> >>power source. I tried it, since I had loads of 'scrap'
carbon resistors,
> >>and it worked, although you couldn't run much off it. An
MSP430 would
> >>possibly have worked, but this was well before that era. I
remembered
> >>from these experiments just how noisy the carbon resistors had
been, and
> >>when I needed random they seemed just the job.
> >>
> >>Al
> >>
> >>Leon Heller wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>----- Original Message ----- 
> >>>From: "augusto einsfeldt" <aee@aee@...>
> >>>To: <msp430@msp4...>
> >>>Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 1:22 PM
> >>>Subject: RE: [msp430] Random generator initialisation
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I believe another way, without the need of an ADC, would be
using the
> >>>>comparator (present in all MSP flavors) plus any flavor of
internal
timer
> >>>>and a pink or white noise
generator similar to AL's.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>Zener diodes are very noisy and are often used as noise
generators.
> >>>
> >>>Leon.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>.
> >>
> >>
> >>Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >        Matthias
> >
> >
> >.
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> .
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi,

a good method for producing a m bit random numbers is to take 
n (>10) random bit sequences of length m, e. g. m times the LSB
from the ADC, and to exor them ( ftp://random.linux-site.net/random/exor.pdf ).
It also works good with phase noise e. g. from ring oscillators.

Regards,

Rolf

msp430@msp4... schrieb am 18.05.05 21:53:06:
> 
> No it wasn't an April fool, or, if it was, it worked. Not so well that

> you could ever use it practically. The small multivib I powered required 
> a couple of hundred resistors, and it's quite possible that a fair 
> amount of the 'signal' was coming from locally radiated noise.
This 
> isn't really any different to powering an MSP from a lemon, in fact a 
> slice of lemon is enough. It's cool, it's out there, but
it's a million  
> miles from practical. The first time I saw this was almost certainly in 
> my hobby era, ie over 35years ago. transistors were really new, to most 
> hobby mags then, and the odd circuit crept in. I may be wildly wrong 
> here but I believe the article may have been a sort of left handed 
> illustration of how little power transistors used compared to valves. I 
> think it was repeated many years later. It works, it isn't useful, but

> it's no more magical than keyless entry devices deriving their power 
> apparently from 'thin air'. In my very early experiments with
this 
> concept, probably around 89-90 I had no trouble getting a small amount 
> of power, but often I would power up just from atmospherics, not the 
> nominally tuned frequency, the problem was getting something small, and 
> spot tuned to a frequency that wasn't active all the time. I have seen

> some commercial parts power up 'spontaneously', so a milliamp or
two 
> from noise shouldn't come as a surprise. The other hard thing was 
> finding something to power that needed little or no current.
> 
> Al
> 
> Matthias Weingart wrote:
> 
> >Onestone, 
> >energy from noisy resistors, wow! Do you have some more information
about it?
> >How did you rectify the noisy AC? Is this really possible? (sounds like
a april's foul)
> >
> >Matthias
> >
> >On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 04:26:45AM +0930, Onestone wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>To go slightly OT (what me!). the reason why I used carbon
resistors was 
> >>based around a 'Wireless World' article on 'free
energy'. It had 
> >>proposed a 3D array of noisy carbon resistors as a possible low
current 
> >>power source. I tried it, since I had loads of 'scrap'
carbon resistors, 
> >>and it worked, although you couldn't run much off it. An
MSP430 would 
> >>possibly have worked, but this was well before that era. I
remembered 
> >>from these experiments just how noisy the carbon resistors had
been, and 
> >>when I needed random they seemed just the job.
> >>
> >>Al
> >>
> >>Leon Heller wrote:
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >>>----- Original Message ----- 
> >>>From: "augusto einsfeldt" <aee@aee@...>
> >>>To: <msp430@msp4...>
> >>>Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 1:22 PM
> >>>Subject: RE: [msp430] Random generator initialisation
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>>>I believe another way, without the need of an ADC, would be
using the
> >>>>comparator (present in all MSP flavors) plus any flavor of
internal timer
> >>>>and a pink or white noise generator similar to AL's.
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>Zener diodes are very noisy and are often used as noise
generators.
> >>>
> >>>Leon.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>
> >>.
> >>
> >> 
> >>Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >        Matthias
> >
> >
> >.
> >
> > 
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 

On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 05:22:41AM +0930, Onestone wrote:
> from noise shouldn't come as a surprise. The
other hard thing was 
> finding something to power that needed little or no current.

Its amazing: The new ultrabright LED's are glowing in the dark, just when
you touch them.
Seems to be a small elektrochemical current (not static discharge, its a
continous glowing).

Matthias

> 
> Al
> 
> Matthias Weingart wrote:
> 
> >Onestone, 
> >energy from noisy resistors, wow! Do you have some more information
about it?
> >How did you rectify the noisy AC? Is this really possible? (sounds like
a april's foul)
> >
> >Matthias
> >
> >On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 04:26:45AM +0930, Onestone wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>To go slightly OT (what me!). the reason why I used carbon
resistors was 
> >>based around a 'Wireless World' article on 'free
energy'. It had 
> >>proposed a 3D array of noisy carbon resistors as a possible low
current 
> >>power source. I tried it, since I had loads of 'scrap'
carbon resistors, 
> >>and it worked, although you couldn't run much off it. An
MSP430 would 
> >>possibly have worked, but this was well before that era. I
remembered 
> >>from these experiments just how noisy the carbon resistors had
been, and 
> >>when I needed random they seemed just the job.
> >>
> >>Al
> >>
> >>Leon Heller wrote:
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >>>----- Original Message ----- 
> >>>From: "augusto einsfeldt" <aee@aee@...>
> >>>To: <msp430@msp4...>
> >>>Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 1:22 PM
> >>>Subject: RE: [msp430] Random generator initialisation
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>>>I believe another way, without the need of an ADC, would be
using the
> >>>>comparator (present in all MSP flavors) plus any flavor of
internal timer
> >>>>and a pink or white noise generator similar to AL's.
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>Zener diodes are very noisy and are often used as noise
generators.
> >>>
> >>>Leon.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>
> >>.
> >>
> >> 
> >>Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >        Matthias
> >
> >
> >.
> >
> > 
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
        Matthias

I believe one preferred way to generate random noise was to use
the B-E reverse breakdown of a suitable transistor - assuming you
have more than 3 volts available. They make a very noisy zener.

Clifford Heath.

Onestone wrote:
> The noise source was primarily Thermal IIRC, I
recall playing around
> with it in the oven...

Microwave oven...? :-) :-) :-)

Seriously though, I wonder how much was thermal and how much was RF
pickup.
Did you look at it with a CRO at the time?

Matthias wrote:
> The new ultrabright LED's are glowing in the dark, just when you touch
> them.

Apparently the white LEDs use a UV LED with a phosphor, as in a
fluorescent
tube. Perhaps your static charge is generating fluorescense?

Clifford Heath.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matthias Weingart" <msp430@msp4...>
To: <msp430@msp4...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 10:38 PM
Subject: Re: [msp430] Random generator initialisation


> On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 05:22:41AM +0930,
Onestone wrote:
>> from noise shouldn't come as a surprise. The other hard thing was
>> finding something to power that needed little or no current.
>
> Its amazing: The new ultrabright LED's are glowing in the dark, just
when 
> you touch them.
> Seems to be a small elektrochemical current (not static discharge, its a 
> continous glowing).

More likely to be noise and mains hum from your body. I see lots when I 
touch a scope probe, should be enough to light a LED.

Leon