At 08:05 AM 2/11/2004 -0300, you wrote:
>Anyway, you are FORCE by Zworld to use Windows...
You guys really need to quit whining about this. 98% of the world uses
Windows. It works just fine for developing applications for the
Rabbit. Computers are cheap enough that you could dedicate a PC to running
nothing but Dynamic C, and all your other computers could be OS2, Unix,
Linux, VMS, whatever. There are plenty of drivers to share files between
windows and other operating systems.
Why would ZWorld spend any time catering to 2% of their customers, of which
only a small portion care about running Unix/Dynamic C. It's called the
80% rule. You cannot make money catering to the 2% market. You need to
develop products that satisfy the majority of the market. That's the
only
way to make money.
So live with the fact that you need to use windows to run Dynamic
C. You'll live, thousands of others of us do.
-Mike
--
Mike vanMeeteren fast351@fast... FASTechnologies Corp.
Track Hauler: 2001 F150 Track toy: 89 Mustang LX 351W 10.93 @ 122.5 MPH
Dynamic C under VMware, WINE, or Linux RabbitLink available?
Started by ●February 1, 2004
Reply by ●February 11, 20042004-02-11
Reply by ●February 11, 20042004-02-11
On Feb 11, 2004, at 7:06 AM, Mike van Meeteren wrote:
> You guys really need to quit whining about this.
I don't think the original poster was whining. It seems that he knows
enough to be able to fix WINE so that DC will work under it. Looking
for technical info or additional help in achieving this goal is a
positive thing.
> 98% of the world uses
> Windows.
That seems like a high percentage to me... I'd even be surprised if
98% of x86-based CPUs were running Windows.
> It works just fine for developing applications for the
> Rabbit. Computers are cheap enough that you could dedicate a PC to
> running
> nothing but Dynamic C, and all your other computers could be OS2, Unix,
> Linux, VMS, whatever. There are plenty of drivers to share files
> between
> windows and other operating systems.
And I agree with this. I use a PowerBook with OS 10.3 for most of my
work (including ssh connections to Linux servers). But, I have a
Windows box dedicated to running Dynamic C and QuickBooks (and I'll be
upgrading to the new QuickBooks on my Mac soon, so it will then be
dedicated to DC only). Would my life be easier if I could run DC on my
Mac? Hell, yes! Do I expect Zworld to release a Mac version? Not a
chance, and I accept that.
> Why would ZWorld spend any time catering to 2% of their customers, of
> which
> only a small portion care about running Unix/Dynamic C. It's called
> the
> 80% rule. You cannot make money catering to the 2% market. You need
> to
> develop products that satisfy the majority of the market. That's the
> only
> way to make money.
Apple makes money and Macs have about 2% market share.
If Zworld can spend a few hours helping someone else to get Dynamic C
running under WINE on Linux, then why shouldn't they? Even if they
only get 5 more customers out of it, it's still a worthwhile effort.
Even if they just sent Lev a copy of DC 8 Lite to test with in WINE (or
VMware), it'd be worthwhile.
> So live with the fact that you need to use windows to run Dynamic
> C. You'll live, thousands of others of us do.
Lev, don't give up. Perhaps someone on the list has an extra DC8 Lite
from a development kit that they don't need and can send to you for
testing.
--
Tom Collins - tom@tom@...
QmailAdmin: http://qmailadmin.sf.net/ Vpopmail: http://vpopmail.sf.net/
Info on the Sniffter handheld Network Tester: http://sniffter.com/
> You guys really need to quit whining about this.
I don't think the original poster was whining. It seems that he knows
enough to be able to fix WINE so that DC will work under it. Looking
for technical info or additional help in achieving this goal is a
positive thing.
> 98% of the world uses
> Windows.
That seems like a high percentage to me... I'd even be surprised if
98% of x86-based CPUs were running Windows.
> It works just fine for developing applications for the
> Rabbit. Computers are cheap enough that you could dedicate a PC to
> running
> nothing but Dynamic C, and all your other computers could be OS2, Unix,
> Linux, VMS, whatever. There are plenty of drivers to share files
> between
> windows and other operating systems.
And I agree with this. I use a PowerBook with OS 10.3 for most of my
work (including ssh connections to Linux servers). But, I have a
Windows box dedicated to running Dynamic C and QuickBooks (and I'll be
upgrading to the new QuickBooks on my Mac soon, so it will then be
dedicated to DC only). Would my life be easier if I could run DC on my
Mac? Hell, yes! Do I expect Zworld to release a Mac version? Not a
chance, and I accept that.
> Why would ZWorld spend any time catering to 2% of their customers, of
> which
> only a small portion care about running Unix/Dynamic C. It's called
> the
> 80% rule. You cannot make money catering to the 2% market. You need
> to
> develop products that satisfy the majority of the market. That's the
> only
> way to make money.
Apple makes money and Macs have about 2% market share.
If Zworld can spend a few hours helping someone else to get Dynamic C
running under WINE on Linux, then why shouldn't they? Even if they
only get 5 more customers out of it, it's still a worthwhile effort.
Even if they just sent Lev a copy of DC 8 Lite to test with in WINE (or
VMware), it'd be worthwhile.
> So live with the fact that you need to use windows to run Dynamic
> C. You'll live, thousands of others of us do.
Lev, don't give up. Perhaps someone on the list has an extra DC8 Lite
from a development kit that they don't need and can send to you for
testing.
--
Tom Collins - tom@tom@...
QmailAdmin: http://qmailadmin.sf.net/ Vpopmail: http://vpopmail.sf.net/
Info on the Sniffter handheld Network Tester: http://sniffter.com/
Reply by ●February 11, 20042004-02-11
El mi 11-02-2004 a las 11:06, Mike van Meeteren escribi
> You guys really need to quit whining about this. 98% of the world uses
> Windows. It works just fine for developing applications for the
Hehe, you must be kidding! 98% , again you dont know nothing...
> Why would ZWorld spend any time catering to 2% of their customers, of which
> only a small portion care about running Unix/Dynamic C. It's called the
> 80% rule. You cannot make money catering to the 2% market. You need to
> develop products that satisfy the majority of the market. That's the only
> way to make money.
>
So, Zworld MUST SAY : We don't care it work or dont work in Linux. No
give a simulated response of: yes, it still don't work but we are the
most efforts..common!!!
Is easy to migrate Dynamic C to Linux, so do it one time for all!
> You guys really need to quit whining about this. 98% of the world uses
> Windows. It works just fine for developing applications for the
Hehe, you must be kidding! 98% , again you dont know nothing...
> Why would ZWorld spend any time catering to 2% of their customers, of which
> only a small portion care about running Unix/Dynamic C. It's called the
> 80% rule. You cannot make money catering to the 2% market. You need to
> develop products that satisfy the majority of the market. That's the only
> way to make money.
>
So, Zworld MUST SAY : We don't care it work or dont work in Linux. No
give a simulated response of: yes, it still don't work but we are the
most efforts..common!!!
Is easy to migrate Dynamic C to Linux, so do it one time for all!
Reply by ●February 11, 20042004-02-11
Please don't turn this group into a liberal linux rant fest. Perhaps those
that use English as a 2nd or third language might consider starting their own
group.
Reply by ●February 11, 20042004-02-11
If we were all to take that attitude WG would continue to dominate the
world.
How many blue screens have you had to suffer over the years? How long are
you prepared to wait for your PC to boot and then never shut down?
That 2% is growing. Already most of the web servers run Linux Apache, the
Spanish government has standardised on Linux for their PCs.
I run Linux for the serious work E.G a security camera frame grabber that
ran 24/7 for the whole of year 2003 without a reboot.
I look forward to the day when ZW are forced to write DC to run on Linux to
keep in the running.
world.
How many blue screens have you had to suffer over the years? How long are
you prepared to wait for your PC to boot and then never shut down?
That 2% is growing. Already most of the web servers run Linux Apache, the
Spanish government has standardised on Linux for their PCs.
I run Linux for the serious work E.G a security camera frame grabber that
ran 24/7 for the whole of year 2003 without a reboot.
I look forward to the day when ZW are forced to write DC to run on Linux to
keep in the running.
Reply by ●February 11, 20042004-02-11
At 10:44 AM 2/11/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>I don't think the original poster was whining. It seems that he knows
>enough to be able to fix WINE so that DC will work under it. Looking
>for technical info or additional help in achieving this goal is a
>positive thing.
Agreed. However, "German Pablo Gentile" was doing exactly that. I commend
the original poster for trying to get it to work under Linux. His approach
was far different than Mr. Gentile's approach. He started by saying "I
have done some work to try to get this to work, here's the steps I've
taken, can you help me out with the details", vs the other approach of
"ZWorld sucks for only making DC available on Windows, they need to fix it
for us so we can run it under our favorite OS".
>That seems like a high percentage to me... I'd even be surprised if
>98% of x86-based CPUs were running Windows.
Maybe not. I picked the number out of thin air. But after writing
software for end users for 10+ years, I'm convinced that the majority of
systems that have people looking at their tubes run Windows.
>Apple makes money and Macs have about 2% market share.
Sure, but it's all they do. And I think most of us agree that Apple is in
that boat because of poorly chosen business practices of the middle 80's.
>If Zworld can spend a few hours helping someone else to get Dynamic C
>running under WINE on Linux, then why shouldn't they? Even if they
>only get 5 more customers out of it, it's still a worthwhile effort.
>Even if they just sent Lev a copy of DC 8 Lite to test with in WINE (or
>VMware), it'd be worthwhile.
Hell, If I had a copy of it I'd happily send it to him (I'll have to check,
I think I only have Premier). What I was objecting to was the fact that
some people come on here screaming about not having DC available as a Linux
application. I was hoping (and obviously failing miserably) at explaining
why ZWorld hasn't tackled porting DC to Linux.
As far as OS wars, I have no great love for Windows. As a matter of fact I
am disgusted by the methods Microsoft has used to dominate this
market. But as a software developer I have to develop software for the
operating system most people use if I want to make money. And it seems
ZWorld has taken the same approach.
-Mike
>I don't think the original poster was whining. It seems that he knows
>enough to be able to fix WINE so that DC will work under it. Looking
>for technical info or additional help in achieving this goal is a
>positive thing.
Agreed. However, "German Pablo Gentile" was doing exactly that. I commend
the original poster for trying to get it to work under Linux. His approach
was far different than Mr. Gentile's approach. He started by saying "I
have done some work to try to get this to work, here's the steps I've
taken, can you help me out with the details", vs the other approach of
"ZWorld sucks for only making DC available on Windows, they need to fix it
for us so we can run it under our favorite OS".
>That seems like a high percentage to me... I'd even be surprised if
>98% of x86-based CPUs were running Windows.
Maybe not. I picked the number out of thin air. But after writing
software for end users for 10+ years, I'm convinced that the majority of
systems that have people looking at their tubes run Windows.
>Apple makes money and Macs have about 2% market share.
Sure, but it's all they do. And I think most of us agree that Apple is in
that boat because of poorly chosen business practices of the middle 80's.
>If Zworld can spend a few hours helping someone else to get Dynamic C
>running under WINE on Linux, then why shouldn't they? Even if they
>only get 5 more customers out of it, it's still a worthwhile effort.
>Even if they just sent Lev a copy of DC 8 Lite to test with in WINE (or
>VMware), it'd be worthwhile.
Hell, If I had a copy of it I'd happily send it to him (I'll have to check,
I think I only have Premier). What I was objecting to was the fact that
some people come on here screaming about not having DC available as a Linux
application. I was hoping (and obviously failing miserably) at explaining
why ZWorld hasn't tackled porting DC to Linux.
As far as OS wars, I have no great love for Windows. As a matter of fact I
am disgusted by the methods Microsoft has used to dominate this
market. But as a software developer I have to develop software for the
operating system most people use if I want to make money. And it seems
ZWorld has taken the same approach.
-Mike
Reply by ●February 11, 20042004-02-11
At 08:14 PM 2/11/2004 +0000, you wrote:
>How many blue screens have you had to suffer over the years? How long are
>you prepared to wait for your PC to boot and then never shut down?
Over the years? Tons. But that was in the 95 days. Since I switched to
the NT/2000/XP chain of products, I must say that Windows has been pretty
darn stable. The machine that I currently do my work on rarely gets
booted. If I boot this thing once a month I'd be surprised. And even then
it only takes about 30 seconds. It never fails to shut down.
>I look forward to the day when ZW are forced to write DC to run on Linux to
>keep in the running.
And when that day comes, I'm sure ZW will do the right thing and port (or
recode) to run on the new OS.
-Mike
>How many blue screens have you had to suffer over the years? How long are
>you prepared to wait for your PC to boot and then never shut down?
Over the years? Tons. But that was in the 95 days. Since I switched to
the NT/2000/XP chain of products, I must say that Windows has been pretty
darn stable. The machine that I currently do my work on rarely gets
booted. If I boot this thing once a month I'd be surprised. And even then
it only takes about 30 seconds. It never fails to shut down.
>I look forward to the day when ZW are forced to write DC to run on Linux to
>keep in the running.
And when that day comes, I'm sure ZW will do the right thing and port (or
recode) to run on the new OS.
-Mike
Reply by ●February 11, 20042004-02-11
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004, Tom Collins wrote:
> > 98% of the world uses
> > Windows.
>
> That seems like a high percentage to me... I'd even be surprised if
> 98% of x86-based CPUs were running Windows.
Recently, the Mac hit 20 years (remember the "1984" commerical). The
voices on the radio (NPR's "Talk of the Nation"), one a Mac zealot,
the other the editor of pcmagazine.com, both said the Mac has about 5%
of the *desktop* market, or 15 million machines. The Wintel platform
is over 90%. That leaves <5% for BeOS, Linux, FreeBSD, GEM, CP/M-86, etc.
However, _overall_ market share is one thing if you're selling an office
productivity suite. For any product, you need to look at who are your
customers. Eg, if most of your customers program COBOL (an old business
langauge, but still used today), you look at that. For z-world, that
produces programmer software, they need to examine the kinds of computers
their programming customer's use. And z-world has been good about polling
for features in the past. Going into a lawyers' office to count macs vs.
linux vs wintel doesn't create a useful "market share" number for what OS
an embedded programmer might use.....
If you have strong opinions about a platform, you need to influence
managers, not programmers. Talk with your sales rep and/or send z-world
email. "I could increse my productivity and I'd buy 5 more licenses if
you ported DC to MacOS -- plus it would look cool with translucent
dialogs!" (I realize the original poster was looking for technical
reasons why WINE didn't emulate well enough, and how to fix it.)
How about allowing a downloader & debugger on PalmOS ????
( linux + Sharp zuarus => field portable DC environtment!! )
--- "increasing knowlege by decreasing entropy"
--- the other brian
---------------------------------
brian witt Railroads, computers, sailboats, etc. bwitt@bwit...
> > 98% of the world uses
> > Windows.
>
> That seems like a high percentage to me... I'd even be surprised if
> 98% of x86-based CPUs were running Windows.
Recently, the Mac hit 20 years (remember the "1984" commerical). The
voices on the radio (NPR's "Talk of the Nation"), one a Mac zealot,
the other the editor of pcmagazine.com, both said the Mac has about 5%
of the *desktop* market, or 15 million machines. The Wintel platform
is over 90%. That leaves <5% for BeOS, Linux, FreeBSD, GEM, CP/M-86, etc.
However, _overall_ market share is one thing if you're selling an office
productivity suite. For any product, you need to look at who are your
customers. Eg, if most of your customers program COBOL (an old business
langauge, but still used today), you look at that. For z-world, that
produces programmer software, they need to examine the kinds of computers
their programming customer's use. And z-world has been good about polling
for features in the past. Going into a lawyers' office to count macs vs.
linux vs wintel doesn't create a useful "market share" number for what OS
an embedded programmer might use.....
If you have strong opinions about a platform, you need to influence
managers, not programmers. Talk with your sales rep and/or send z-world
email. "I could increse my productivity and I'd buy 5 more licenses if
you ported DC to MacOS -- plus it would look cool with translucent
dialogs!" (I realize the original poster was looking for technical
reasons why WINE didn't emulate well enough, and how to fix it.)
How about allowing a downloader & debugger on PalmOS ????
( linux + Sharp zuarus => field portable DC environtment!! )
--- "increasing knowlege by decreasing entropy"
--- the other brian
---------------------------------
brian witt Railroads, computers, sailboats, etc. bwitt@bwit...
Reply by ●February 11, 20042004-02-11
And with that said, may we please go back to the Rabbit Semiconductor forum and
not use this as who has the the better OS forum?
We all know that Linux users are passionate about Linux and Windows users are passionate about Windows and they will argue their points all day long without ever agreeing on anything.
One other thing, can we stop using this forum as an avenue for begging for free code and save it for real problems?
Thanks,
Bob
We all know that Linux users are passionate about Linux and Windows users are passionate about Windows and they will argue their points all day long without ever agreeing on anything.
One other thing, can we stop using this forum as an avenue for begging for free code and save it for real problems?
Thanks,
Bob
Reply by ●February 11, 20042004-02-11
At 03:30 PM 2/11/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>One other thing, can we stop using this forum as an avenue for begging for
>free code and save it for real problems?
Absolutely. With that in mind:
One of our products is growing beyond the capacity of the 3010 cores we've
been using. (256 flash/128 ram for those not familiar). We've upgraded to
using R3000 cores which sport 512 flash/512 ram.
I realize I can make DC compile to both flashes as needed using
#define USE_2NDFLASH_CODE
in the BIOS. However, as I understand it, the "protected flash area" of
userblock and IDBlock still resides at the top of the first flash. This
means the program "jumps over" that area of flash. How does the bin file
look when compiling for a two flash chip core? Is the userblock area zero
filled? Is the program using the bin file supposed to add the userblock
size to any addresses above the userblock area? The reason I ask is I will
have to fix my field update utility to be able to write to the large cores
and I don't have any samples of bin files.
Thanks.
-Mike
>One other thing, can we stop using this forum as an avenue for begging for
>free code and save it for real problems?
Absolutely. With that in mind:
One of our products is growing beyond the capacity of the 3010 cores we've
been using. (256 flash/128 ram for those not familiar). We've upgraded to
using R3000 cores which sport 512 flash/512 ram.
I realize I can make DC compile to both flashes as needed using
#define USE_2NDFLASH_CODE
in the BIOS. However, as I understand it, the "protected flash area" of
userblock and IDBlock still resides at the top of the first flash. This
means the program "jumps over" that area of flash. How does the bin file
look when compiling for a two flash chip core? Is the userblock area zero
filled? Is the program using the bin file supposed to add the userblock
size to any addresses above the userblock area? The reason I ask is I will
have to fix my field update utility to be able to write to the large cores
and I don't have any samples of bin files.
Thanks.
-Mike
