On Dec 21, 7:45 am, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:> On Dec 20, 10:56 pm, steve <bungalow_st...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > On Dec 20, 4:44 pm, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > > > > On Dec 20, 4:37 pm, steve <bungalow_st...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > On Dec 17, 3:22 pm, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > > > > > > On Dec 17, 2:18 pm, steve <bungalow_st...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Dec 17, 10:58 am, Mr. C <fakeem...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:04:17 -0500, "MC" > > > > > > > > <for.address.l...@www.ai.uga.edu.slash.mc> wrote: > > > > > > > >At risk of starting a religious war... > > > > > > > > >Why should I *not* prefer the MSP430 to the AVR and PIC? > > > > > > > > >Tell me its weak points. > > > > > > > > I have done several products using the MSP430, mostly the 'F149 and > > > > > > > 'F449 parts. Basically, except for a few special purpose > > > > > > > applications, I will not use the MSP430 on future products. We had > > > > > > > NUMEROUS problems writing to the flash reliably. The flash write > > > > > > > problems have finally been somewhat acknowledged by TI, but they > > > > > > > really have not solved the problems (maybe others parts in the MSP430 > > > > > > > family have them fixed). > > > > > > > > Those same parts are also VERY sensitive to any noise. We do a pretty > > > > > > > good job of board design and keeping our circuits immune from noise, > > > > > > > but those parts were especially sensitive causing resets and, worst of > > > > > > > all, lockups where even the watchdog timer would not pull it out. > > > > > > > > On the 'F44x parts, there were issues of sometimes not starting up > > > > > > > when using a 32KHz crystal. What is required is to properly "tune" > > > > > > > the crystal used to the part. We found the selection of capacitors > > > > > > > for the crystal is very critical to starting up. > > > > > > > > I would not recommend using the 'F44x or 'F1xx parts for any > > > > > > > applications but those that are battery powered and only applications > > > > > > > that do NOT write to on-chip flash. If I was forced to use an MSP430 > > > > > > > and I needed to write to non-volatile memory, I would use an external > > > > > > > serial EEPROM or FRAM. In my career, I have used several micros, but > > > > > > > the MSP430 family has definitely given me the most problems. > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > Flash is the Achilles heel of every micro I have used, especially with > > > > > > applications that write to it in the field. > > > > > > Flash is great for developments and avr is nice for prototypes. > > > > > However, we are looking into two other non-flash uC for productions. > > > > > Avr and msp are too expensive. Pic is too ugly. > > > > > AVR is too expensive? those Mega88's are cheap (<$1) and widely use in > > > > $20 mass produced toys. Of couse it all depends on your processor > > > > requirements and volume. If you need a 25 cent micro, then 4 bitters > > > > are the way to go. > > > > LCD AVR is $2 per 10K. We will settle for a 50 cents 6502 compatible. > > > For 100K, it will not be much of an issue. But we are not buying 100K > > > yet. > > > There is a 50 cent LCD 6502 compatible? What is the part number? > > M2 as in M2A2. > A2 is a 3V sensor.Actually, there are two versions: M2-16K-12x4 (16K code, 12 segments and 4 commons) and M2-64K-20x8 (64K code, 20 segments and 8 commons) But I just call them small M2 and big M2.
Disadvantages of MSP430 relative to AVR and PIC?
Started by ●December 16, 2008
Reply by ●December 21, 20082008-12-21
Reply by ●December 21, 20082008-12-21
On Dec 21, 10:28 am, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:> On Dec 21, 7:45 am, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > > > > > On Dec 20, 10:56 pm, steve <bungalow_st...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > On Dec 20, 4:44 pm, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > > > > > On Dec 20, 4:37 pm, steve <bungalow_st...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Dec 17, 3:22 pm, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > > > > > > > On Dec 17, 2:18 pm, steve <bungalow_st...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Dec 17, 10:58 am, Mr. C <fakeem...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:04:17 -0500, "MC" > > > > > > > > > <for.address.l...@www.ai.uga.edu.slash.mc> wrote: > > > > > > > > >At risk of starting a religious war... > > > > > > > > > >Why should I *not* prefer the MSP430 to the AVR and PIC? > > > > > > > > > >Tell me its weak points. > > > > > > > > > I have done several products using the MSP430, mostly the 'F149 and > > > > > > > > 'F449 parts. Basically, except for a few special purpose > > > > > > > > applications, I will not use the MSP430 on future products. We had > > > > > > > > NUMEROUS problems writing to the flash reliably. The flash write > > > > > > > > problems have finally been somewhat acknowledged by TI, but they > > > > > > > > really have not solved the problems (maybe others parts in the MSP430 > > > > > > > > family have them fixed). > > > > > > > > > Those same parts are also VERY sensitive to any noise. We do a pretty > > > > > > > > good job of board design and keeping our circuits immune from noise, > > > > > > > > but those parts were especially sensitive causing resets and, worst of > > > > > > > > all, lockups where even the watchdog timer would not pull it out. > > > > > > > > > On the 'F44x parts, there were issues of sometimes not starting up > > > > > > > > when using a 32KHz crystal. What is required is to properly "tune" > > > > > > > > the crystal used to the part. We found the selection of capacitors > > > > > > > > for the crystal is very critical to starting up. > > > > > > > > > I would not recommend using the 'F44x or 'F1xx parts for any > > > > > > > > applications but those that are battery powered and only applications > > > > > > > > that do NOT write to on-chip flash. If I was forced to use an MSP430 > > > > > > > > and I needed to write to non-volatile memory, I would use an external > > > > > > > > serial EEPROM or FRAM. In my career, I have used several micros, but > > > > > > > > the MSP430 family has definitely given me the most problems. > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > Flash is the Achilles heel of every micro I have used, especially with > > > > > > > applications that write to it in the field. > > > > > > > Flash is great for developments and avr is nice for prototypes. > > > > > > However, we are looking into two other non-flash uC for productions. > > > > > > Avr and msp are too expensive. Pic is too ugly. > > > > > > AVR is too expensive? those Mega88's are cheap (<$1) and widely use in > > > > > $20 mass produced toys. Of couse it all depends on your processor > > > > > requirements and volume. If you need a 25 cent micro, then 4 bitters > > > > > are the way to go. > > > > > LCD AVR is $2 per 10K. We will settle for a 50 cents 6502 compatible. > > > > For 100K, it will not be much of an issue. But we are not buying 100K > > > > yet. > > > > There is a 50 cent LCD 6502 compatible? What is the part number? > > > M2 as in M2A2. > > A2 is a 3V sensor. > > Actually, there are two versions: > > M2-16K-12x4 (16K code, 12 segments and 4 commons) > and > M2-64K-20x8 (64K code, 20 segments and 8 commons) > > But I just call them small M2 and big M2.?? can someone decode this for me
Reply by ●December 21, 20082008-12-21
On Dec 21, 12:35 pm, steve <bungalow_st...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On Dec 21, 10:28 am, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > > > > > On Dec 21, 7:45 am, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > > > > On Dec 20, 10:56 pm, steve <bungalow_st...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > On Dec 20, 4:44 pm, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > > > > > > On Dec 20, 4:37 pm, steve <bungalow_st...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Dec 17, 3:22 pm, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Dec 17, 2:18 pm, steve <bungalow_st...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Dec 17, 10:58 am, Mr. C <fakeem...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:04:17 -0500, "MC" > > > > > > > > > > <for.address.l...@www.ai.uga.edu.slash.mc> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >At risk of starting a religious war... > > > > > > > > > > >Why should I *not* prefer the MSP430 to the AVR and PIC? > > > > > > > > > > >Tell me its weak points. > > > > > > > > > > I have done several products using the MSP430, mostly the 'F149 and > > > > > > > > > 'F449 parts. Basically, except for a few special purpose > > > > > > > > > applications, I will not use the MSP430 on future products. We had > > > > > > > > > NUMEROUS problems writing to the flash reliably. The flash write > > > > > > > > > problems have finally been somewhat acknowledged by TI, but they > > > > > > > > > really have not solved the problems (maybe others parts in the MSP430 > > > > > > > > > family have them fixed). > > > > > > > > > > Those same parts are also VERY sensitive to any noise. We do a pretty > > > > > > > > > good job of board design and keeping our circuits immune from noise, > > > > > > > > > but those parts were especially sensitive causing resets and, worst of > > > > > > > > > all, lockups where even the watchdog timer would not pull it out. > > > > > > > > > > On the 'F44x parts, there were issues of sometimes not starting up > > > > > > > > > when using a 32KHz crystal. What is required is to properly "tune" > > > > > > > > > the crystal used to the part. We found the selection of capacitors > > > > > > > > > for the crystal is very critical to starting up. > > > > > > > > > > I would not recommend using the 'F44x or 'F1xx parts for any > > > > > > > > > applications but those that are battery powered and only applications > > > > > > > > > that do NOT write to on-chip flash. If I was forced to use an MSP430 > > > > > > > > > and I needed to write to non-volatile memory, I would use an external > > > > > > > > > serial EEPROM or FRAM. In my career, I have used several micros, but > > > > > > > > > the MSP430 family has definitely given me the most problems. > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > Flash is the Achilles heel of every micro I have used, especially with > > > > > > > > applications that write to it in the field. > > > > > > > > Flash is great for developments and avr is nice for prototypes. > > > > > > > However, we are looking into two other non-flash uC for productions. > > > > > > > Avr and msp are too expensive. Pic is too ugly. > > > > > > > AVR is too expensive? those Mega88's are cheap (<$1) and widely use in > > > > > > $20 mass produced toys. Of couse it all depends on your processor > > > > > > requirements and volume. If you need a 25 cent micro, then 4 bitters > > > > > > are the way to go. > > > > > > LCD AVR is $2 per 10K. We will settle for a 50 cents 6502 compatible. > > > > > For 100K, it will not be much of an issue. But we are not buying 100K > > > > > yet. > > > > > There is a 50 cent LCD 6502 compatible? What is the part number? > > > > M2 as in M2A2. > > > A2 is a 3V sensor. > > > Actually, there are two versions: > > > M2-16K-12x4 (16K code, 12 segments and 4 commons) > > and > > M2-64K-20x8 (64K code, 20 segments and 8 commons) > > > But I just call them small M2 and big M2. > > ?? can someone decode this for meWhy, isn't it clear enough? M2-16K-12x4 is a Microcontroller based on 6502 with 16K one time programmable code space and a LCD controller driving up to 12 segments and 4 commons.
Reply by ●December 21, 20082008-12-21
On Dec 21, 3:35=A0pm, steve <bungalow_st...@yahoo.com> wrote:> > M2-16K-12x4 (16K code, 12 segments and 4 commons) > > M2-64K-20x8 (64K code, 20 segments and 8 commons) > > ?? =A0can someone decode this for meSure: There exist a lot of 6502-core (or modified-6502-core, and 65C816-type-core) micros sold into various niche markets. If you don't already know about them, you probably don't have what it takes to buy them.
Reply by ●December 21, 20082008-12-21
On Dec 21, 3:53 pm, larwe <zwsdot...@gmail.com> wrote:> On Dec 21, 3:35 pm, steve <bungalow_st...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > M2-16K-12x4 (16K code, 12 segments and 4 commons) > > > M2-64K-20x8 (64K code, 20 segments and 8 commons) > > > ?? can someone decode this for me > > Sure: There exist a lot of 6502-core (or modified-6502-core, and > 65C816-type-core) micros sold into various niche markets. If you don't > already know about them, you probably don't have what it takes to buy > them.Thank you. For a while, I thought I am in the wrong universe, where no one live outside of MSP, AVR and PIC. "You think the only people who are people Are the people who look and think like you But if you walk the footsteps of a stranger You'll learn things you never knew you never knew" -- Pocahontas --
Reply by ●December 22, 20082008-12-22
On Dec 21, 3:53 pm, larwe <zwsdot...@gmail.com> wrote:> On Dec 21, 3:35 pm, steve <bungalow_st...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > M2-16K-12x4 (16K code, 12 segments and 4 commons) > > > M2-64K-20x8 (64K code, 20 segments and 8 commons) > > > ?? can someone decode this for me > > Sure: There exist a lot of 6502-core (or modified-6502-core, and > 65C816-type-core) micros sold into various niche markets. If you don't > already know about them, you probably don't have what it takes to buy > them.fair enough, didn't realize I would hit a nerve by asking
Reply by ●December 22, 20082008-12-22
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:20:17 -0800 (PST), linnix <me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:>On Dec 21, 3:53 pm, larwe <zwsdot...@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Dec 21, 3:35 pm, steve <bungalow_st...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> > > M2-16K-12x4 (16K code, 12 segments and 4 commons) >> > > M2-64K-20x8 (64K code, 20 segments and 8 commons) >> >> > ?? can someone decode this for me >> >> Sure: There exist a lot of 6502-core (or modified-6502-core, and >> 65C816-type-core) micros sold into various niche markets. If you don't >> already know about them, you probably don't have what it takes to buy >> them. > >Thank you. For a while, I thought I am in the wrong universe, where >no one live outside of MSP, AVR and PIC.I've only heard of those 6502-based things because someone (you?) has previously discussed them on this newsgroup as being chinese-sourced, high-volume low-cost devices for toys. As far as I can tell (and perhaps as previous posts state) the web has virtually no info on them.>"You think the only people who are people >Are the people who look and think like you >But if you walk the footsteps of a stranger >You'll learn things you never knew you never knew" >-- Pocahontas --
Reply by ●December 22, 20082008-12-22
On Dec 21, 8:32 pm, Ben Bradley <ben_nospam_brad...@frontiernet.net> wrote:> On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:20:17 -0800 (PST), linnix > > > > <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > >On Dec 21, 3:53 pm, larwe <zwsdot...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Dec 21, 3:35 pm, steve <bungalow_st...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >> > > M2-16K-12x4 (16K code, 12 segments and 4 commons) > >> > > M2-64K-20x8 (64K code, 20 segments and 8 commons) > > >> > ?? can someone decode this for me > > >> Sure: There exist a lot of 6502-core (or modified-6502-core, and > >> 65C816-type-core) micros sold into various niche markets. If you don't > >> already know about them, you probably don't have what it takes to buy > >> them. > > >Thank you. For a while, I thought I am in the wrong universe, where > >no one live outside of MSP, AVR and PIC. > > I've only heard of those 6502-based things because someone (you?) > has previously discussed them on this newsgroup as being > chinese-sourced, high-volume low-cost devices for toys. As far as I > can tell (and perhaps as previous posts state) the web has virtually > no info on them.I can assure you that they exists, and for less than 50 cents. We were competiting on another project with 25 cents budget for the uC. M2 turns out to be too expensive, but certainly cheap enough for our current project. For a $5 device, BOM must be less than $1. It took me several months to learn and lose (the project), but valuable experiences nonetheless.> > >"You think the only people who are people > >Are the people who look and think like you > >But if you walk the footsteps of a stranger > >You'll learn things you never knew you never knew" > >-- Pocahontas --
Reply by ●December 22, 20082008-12-22
On Dec 21, 11:32=A0pm, Ben Bradley <ben_nospam_brad...@frontiernet.net> wrote:> On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:20:17 -0800 (PST), linnix > > > > > > <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > >On Dec 21, 3:53 pm, larwe <zwsdot...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Dec 21, 3:35 pm, steve <bungalow_st...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >> > > M2-16K-12x4 (16K code, 12 segments and 4 commons) > >> > > M2-64K-20x8 (64K code, 20 segments and 8 commons) > > >> > ?? =A0can someone decode this for me > > >> Sure: There exist a lot of 6502-core (or modified-6502-core, and > >> 65C816-type-core) micros sold into various niche markets. If you don't > >> already know about them, you probably don't have what it takes to buy > >> them. > > >Thank you. =A0For a while, I thought I am in the wrong universe, where > >no one live outside of MSP, AVR and PIC. > > =A0 =A0I've only heard of those 6502-based things because someone (you?) > has previously discussed them on this newsgroup as being > chinese-sourced, high-volume low-cost devices for toys. =A0As far as I > can tell (and perhaps as previous posts state) the web has virtually > no info on them.I'm with you. I'd love to get a couple of named sources for 10K quantities at well under a buck each. Please... :-)
Reply by ●December 22, 20082008-12-22
On Dec 21, 6:53=A0pm, larwe <zwsdot...@gmail.com> wrote:> On Dec 21, 3:35=A0pm, steve <bungalow_st...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > M2-16K-12x4 (16K code, 12 segments and 4 commons) > > > M2-64K-20x8 (64K code, 20 segments and 8 commons) > > > ?? =A0can someone decode this for me > > Sure: There exist a lot of 6502-core (or modified-6502-core, and > 65C816-type-core) micros sold into various niche markets. If you don't > already know about them, you probably don't have what it takes to buy > them.What does it take to buy them, besides a few thousand dollars?
