Do you still use "RS232" or something else?

On 16 Jan., 09:13, Glenn <glenn2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 14 Jan., 13:13, Oliver Betz <ob...@despammed.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello All,
> ...
>
> > More alternatives?
>
> > Oliver
> > --
> > Oliver Betz, Munich
> > despammed.com is broken, use Reply-To:
>
> The alternative - long ago MacOS X begin to support IP-over-USB and IP-
> over-firewire - but this is not the point though.
>
> The point is that you can communicate with your device via layer 2 mac/
> ethernet/physical-addresses !
>
> You do not need IP and the DHCP functionality.
>
> You only need to write in the device mac-address to communicate with
> it. In principle the mac-address is unique in the whole world, but the
> mac-address is typically different on the different ports (USB,
> ethernet...).
>
> With todays open-source ip-stacks, you can simply remove the ip-part
> and only use layer 2 communication. Maybe you could use PPP over
> ethernet II framing?
>
> -
>
> layer 2 protocols:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_network_protocols#Layer_2_protoc...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_link_layer
>
> e.g.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernethttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_frame#Ethernet_frame_types
> E.g.
> Ethernet II frame = DIX frame - most used
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point-to-Point_Protocol
>
> Other layer-2 examples over e.g. ethernet or 802.1 not used here:
> dhcp
> arp
> 802.1x (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.1x)

More about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_over_USB

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_communications_device_class
Quote: "...
Additionally this device class supports computer networking akin to a
network card, providing an interface for transmitting Ethernet or ATM
frames onto some physical media. Microsoft Windows versions prior to
Windows Vista do not support the networking parts of the USB CDC,
instead promoting Microsoft's own derivative named Microsoft RNDIS, a
serialized version of the Microsoft NDIS (Network Driver Interface
Specification). With a vendor-supplied INF file, Windows Vista
supports USB CDC and USB WMCDC.[1]

This class is generally implemented in embedded systems like mobile
phones to achieve more than one functionality from the device, so that
a phone may be used as a modem, fax or network port. The data
interfaces are generally used to perform bulk data transfer.
..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNDIS
Quote: "...
The Remote Network Driver Interface Specification (RNDIS) is a
Microsoft proprietary protocol used mostly on top of USB.
...
The USB Implementers Forum (USB-IF) defines at least three non-
proprietary USB Communications Device Class (CDC) protocols with
comparable "virtual Ethernet" functionality; one of them (CDC-ECM)
predates RNDIS and is widely used for interoperability with non-
Microsoft operating systems, but it has no native Windows support.
..."

The GNU/Linux "usbnet" Driver Framework:
http://www.linux-usb.org/usbnet/
Quote: "...
Linux PDAs, and other embedded systems like DOCSIS cable modems, are
much the same. They act as Hosts in the networking sense while they
are "devices" in the USB sense, so they behave like the other end of a
host-to-host cable. All that's needed is the USB-IF Communications
Device Class (CDC) "Ethernet" class, or a simplified variant if the
hardware can't implement CDC to spec. (Unless you listen to Microsoft,
who will tell you not to use such vendor-neutral protocols. They think
a complex and poorly documented protocol they defined, RNDIS, is
better for them.)
...
Another approach to using IP over USB is to make the device look like
a serial line or telecommunications modem, and then run PPP over those
protocols. This document doesn't address those approaches, used
sometimes with USB drivers such as cdc_acm, usb-serial, and with
adapters to IRDA or BlueTooth stacks.
...
Zeroconf

The current zcip software works with recent versions of usbnet.
(There's also a version of this in current versions of Busybox.) It
partially supports the goal of a fully hands-off user install
experience, so that USB peripherals don't require any sysadmin
attention at all during setup, even on networks without DHCP service.
(Read more about the IETF Zero Configuration Networking working
group.)
...
NOTE for RNDIS users: MS-Windows has problems with its USB and RNDIS
stacks, which can not be worked around by Linux peripherals. Symptoms
include at one extreme a blue screen (panic), to stopping
communication after a while, to (the mildest failure) just a temporary
lockup that goes away after a while.
..."


If you use ethernet over USB/bluetooth... you can use Wireshark to
capture your ethernet for debugging purposes.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth#List_of_applications
Quote: "...
List of applications
...
* Wireless bridge between two Industrial Ethernet (e.g., PROFINET)
networks.
..."

On 16 Jan., 09:36, Glenn <glenn2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 16 Jan., 09:13, Glenn <glenn2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 14 Jan., 13:13, Oliver Betz <ob...@despammed.com> wrote:
>
> > > Hello All,
> > ...
>
> > > More alternatives?
>
> > > Oliver
> > > --
> > > Oliver Betz, Munich
> > > despammed.com is broken, use Reply-To:
>
> > The alternative - long ago MacOS X begin to support IP-over-USB and IP-
> > over-firewire - but this is not the point though.
>
> > The point is that you can communicate with your device via layer 2 mac/
> > ethernet/physical-addresses !
...

Microsoft seem to support USB-CDC - it just has to be enabled?:

Drivers for the Supported USB Device Classes
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ff538820%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
Quote: "...
Starting with Windows Vista, you can enable CDC and Wireless Mobile
CDC (WMCDC) support by setting a registry value, as described in
Support for the Wireless Mobile Communication Device Class.
..."

Support for the Wireless Mobile Communication Device Class
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ff538833%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

On 1/15/2011 5:12 PM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Jan 2011 12:34:10 -0700, D Yuniskis
> <not.going.to.be@seen.com>  wrote:
>
>>> But I'm afraid our users won't use plain/clean Ethernet but switch to
>>> "Screwed-Up-Profibus" which I won't implement unless I'm forced to.
>>
>> If you can live with the (short) distance limitations of USB, what if
>> you made your device look like a mass storage device.  I.e., damn
>> near every USB host out there will recognize a USB "disk drive".
>>
>> User can mount the drive (which is often automatic) and then access
>> X:\index.html to interact with it.  That *static* page (i.e., a "file"
>> on your device) can have links to:   X:\status.html, X:\log.html,
>> X:\diagnostics.html, etc.  You don't even need a "web server" in
>> your device -- instead, you watch to see which "files" are accessed
>> and in which order.
>
> If you want to look like a USB drive, you must also act like an USB
> drive (timeouts).

Sure.  And if you want to look like a DTE or DCE you also have
timing constraints -- that goes without saying.

But, you can design an HTML "interface" that implicitly transfers
information/commands just by noting which resources are accessed
by the client.  I.e., you don't have to dynamically serve up a
(complex) page for each resource accessed.

Without specific requirements, it's hard to say which, if any,
alternatives *will* work -- though we can suggest approaches
that *might* work!  (the rest is left as an exercise for the
reader  :> )

> For more than two years ago, I had problems installing a wireless
> broadband modem (Huawei). It used one Windows drive letter (file
> system) for actual modem operation and an other for distributing the
> (Windows) drivers.
>
> My installation attempts ended up with various timeout proplems.
>
> I finally figured out that by first copying the installation software
> and drivers from the USB modem "disk drive" to an external drive (such
> as USB memory stick) the installation process went OK.
>
> Apart from this, the modem has worked flawlessly, when I use the same
> USB port. Unfortunately using a diffeent USB purt  caused a lot of
> problems.

On 16 Jan., 00:57, Clifford Heath <n...@spam.please.net> wrote:
> On 01/15/11 18:41, Glenn wrote:
...
> > The USB standard ought to be with for a long time - why?:
> > It has only 1 twisted pair for bidirectional communication. It can not
> > get any simpler in hardware !
>
> At a huge cost in software though, especially host-side.
>
> Clifford Heath

I wil try to address this here, if you by cost mean money.

If you choose the right microcontroller - the no:

Generally:

USB in a NutShell.
Making sense of the USB standard:
http://www.beyondlogic.org/usbnutshell/usb1.htm

Have you tried running the USBCV (compliance verifier) tool with your
device? It's at:
http://www.usb.org/developers/tools
http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/

-

ARM:

Migration from PIC to ARM Cortex MCU:
http://www.eg3.com/webinars/video/20100518a-st.pdf
Quote: "...
Free USB device library from ST: ANSI-C source code available,
supporting many USB classes (mass storage, HID, DFU, CDC, audio)
..."

Embedded USB Device Stack:
http://www.thesycon.de/eng/embusbdevice.shtml
Quote: "...Memory Footprints..."
http://www.thesycon.de/embusbdevice/embusbdevicestack.pdf

LPC214x USB stack:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/lpcusb
Citat: "...This is a USB core stack for the built-in USB device of
LPC214x microcontrollers. It handles the hardware interface and USB
enumeration/configuration. Also included are examples like USB
joystick HID, USB virtual COM port and USB mass storage on SD-card..."

This page is the homepage for an open-source USB stack for the built-
in USB controller in LPC214x microcontrollers:
http://wiki.sikken.nl/index.php?title=3DLPCUSB
Citat: "...LPC2148 microcontroller (I'm using an Embedded Artists
LPC2148 quickstart board + prototype board) running on a 12 MHz
crystal..."

http://wiki.sikken.nl/index.php?title=3DMain_Page

Does ARM provide drivers for the USB controller on my development
board?
http://www.arm.com/support/faqdev/13593.html
Citat: "...Philips have now released their Linux drivers for ISP1761
under a GPL licence. These are available from...":
http://sourceforge.net/users/philips_usb/

-

AVR:

V-USB is a software-only implementation of a low-speed USB device for
Atmel=92s AVR=AE microcontrollers, making it possible to build USB
hardware with almost any AVR=AE microcontroller, not requiring any
additional chip:
http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/index.html
"...
V-USB can be licensed freely under the GNU General Public License or
alternatively under a commercial license.
..."
Implementing USB 1.1 in Firmware
http://www.obdev.at/developers/articles/00003.html

USBasp - USB programmer for Atmel AVR controllers
http://www.fischl.de/usbasp/

-

PIC:

USB Framework for PIC18, PIC24 & PIC32:
http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=3DSS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=3D=
2680&dDocName=3Den537044
Quote: "...Microchip has USB software to support USB on 8-bit, 16-bit
and 32-bit MCUs. This software is royalty free source code and also
includes example projects..."

On 16/01/2011 8:20 PM, Glenn wrote:
....
>
> AVR:
>
> V-USB is a software-only implementation of a low-speed USB device for
> Atmel�s AVR� microcontrollers, making it possible to build USB
> hardware with almost any AVR� microcontroller, not requiring any
> additional chip:
> http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/index.html
> "...
> V-USB can be licensed freely under the GNU General Public License or
> alternatively under a commercial license.
> ..."
> Implementing USB 1.1 in Firmware
> http://www.obdev.at/developers/articles/00003.html
>
> USBasp - USB programmer for Atmel AVR controllers
> http://www.fischl.de/usbasp/

The "latest" USB library for AVR is LUFA - Lightweight USB Framework for AVRs
http://code.google.com/p/lufa-lib/
http://www.fourwalledcubicle.com/LUFA.php

Free, reasonably mature, used in Arduino Uno

Tom

On 1/16/2011 3:20 AM, Glenn wrote:
> On 16 Jan., 00:57, Clifford Heath<n...@spam.please.net>  wrote:
>> On 01/15/11 18:41, Glenn wrote:
> ....
>>> The USB standard ought to be with for a long time - why?:
>>> It has only 1 twisted pair for bidirectional communication. It can not
>>> get any simpler in hardware !
>>
>> At a huge cost in software though, especially host-side.
>>
>> Clifford Heath
>
> I wil try to address this here, if you by cost mean money.
>
> If you choose the right microcontroller - the no:

Were those (elided) all *host* implementations?

And, what's the relative cost (development time, memory usage, etc.)
of writing a UART handler?

The appeal of a serial port is that it is relatively light
(in terms of pins on MCU), low memory requirements (buffers
can be as small as you want (if you trade latency) numbering
in handfuls of bytes, reasonably low overhead (especially
if using a device with a deep buffer and/or carefully
considering what you push through the interface), "simple"
software design, appeal to existing devices (in industrial
control applications), easier to test/validate (fewer "special
cases") etc.  USB is heavier-weight in all of these regards.

rickman wrote:

[...]

>> >But I'm looking forward to the day when 232 is replaced by USB, not
>> >because laptop makers refuse to have them in the machine, but because
>> >USB is so easy to add there is no reason to use 232.
>>
>> Maybe I have a different understanding of "easy".
>>
>> Using a terminal program (e.g the one supplied with the PC operating
>> system) is easy. I can guide a customer's technician on the phone to
>> do it. He doesn't even need Internet access there.
>>
>> Providing software to access the USB HID data for every operating
>> system is IMNSHO less easy. Windows X86, Windows 64 bit, Linux, Mac OS
>> X, to be supported for more than ten years. I don't like to do it.
>
>Why does this require more than a terminal program?  I use a USB
>serial port with all sorts of software that is written to talk to a

It requires drivers to be installed with admin rights.

>serial port.  Can a USB device be configured to look like a serial
>port independent of what the USB chip is actually connected to?  I

Yes, using a virtual comm port driver. Installation with admin rights,
huge impact on target system.

Would you tolerate that every stupid device you want to configure
installs a virtual port? You will run out of port numbers quickly.

IMO that's the wrong way, better would be to stick with EIA-232 and
the user installs _one_ good USB <-> serial converter.

I already wrote this 2011-01-14.

Oliver
-- 
Oliver Betz, Muenchen (oliverbetz.de)

D Yuniskis wrote:

[...]

>> "Free form" diagnosis means for example that the user can start some
>> self tests and gets results in human readable form. That's easy with a
>> terminal program.
>>
>> With CANopen or Profibus, I had to get access to this bus from the PC
>> and to supply host software to achive a similar result. That's
>> impossible in most cases.
>>
>> Therefore I need a simple "interactive" access to the device.
>> Currently EIA-232 if possible. Or UART data over 24V I/O with a
>> primitive (even passive) level converter for small sensors. We did
>> this long before IO-Link became popular.
>
>But you also need that to be some interface that the (typical) user
>will have ready access to.

I don't know what you are speaking about. Physical interface:
Connector, level converter? Logical interface?

>  What distances are you concerned with?

The user will walk to the device, not lay a 100m cable to it. IOW 4m
is long in this context.

Really long cables will be the mentioned process data buses.

>And, how "interactive" does it have to be?  E.g., entering the
>current date is more interactive than *picking* the day-of-week.

Using a terminal program, there is little difference.

>>> OTOH, if your device is robust enough to be operational *including*
>>> the networking aspects, then you could still support "configuration
>>> and diagnosis" over the wire.
>>
>> If I had Ethernet anyway as Didi's spectrometer has, I would of course
>> offer configuration and diags there.
>>
>> But I'm afraid our users won't use plain/clean Ethernet but switch to
>> "Screwed-Up-Profibus" which I won't implement unless I'm forced to.
>
>If you can live with the (short) distance limitations of USB, what if
>you made your device look like a mass storage device.  I.e., damn
>near every USB host out there will recognize a USB "disk drive".
>
>User can mount the drive (which is often automatic) and then access
>X:\index.html to interact with it.  That *static* page (i.e., a "file"
>on your device) can have links to:   X:\status.html, X:\log.html,
>X:\diagnostics.html, etc.  You don't even need a "web server" in
>your device -- instead, you watch to see which "files" are accessed
>and in which order.

The OS will assume exclusive access, therefore cache data. I think it
will be difficult to establish a dynamic data exchange.

And transferring arbitrary numbers from a web browser to a "mass
storage" device will be also somewhat weird.

Oliver
-- 
Oliver Betz, Muenchen (oliverbetz.de)

On 2011-01-15, Oliver Betz <OBetz@despammed.com> wrote:
> rickman wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>But I'm looking forward to the day when 232 is replaced by USB, not
>>because laptop makers refuse to have them in the machine, but because
>>USB is so easy to add there is no reason to use 232.
>
> Maybe I have a different understanding of "easy".
>
> Using a terminal program (e.g the one supplied with the PC operating
> system) is easy.

The problem is that Windows doesn't supply a terminal program.  All it
comes with is "Hyperterminal".  While it has the word "terminal" in
it's name I don't think it qualifies as a terminal program.  It's so
bad it barely qualifies as a program at all.  

1/2  ;)

-- 
Grant

Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:

> On 2011-01-15, Oliver Betz <OBetz@despammed.com> wrote:
>> rickman wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>But I'm looking forward to the day when 232 is replaced by USB, not
>>>because laptop makers refuse to have them in the machine, but because
>>>USB is so easy to add there is no reason to use 232.
>>
>> Maybe I have a different understanding of "easy".
>>
>> Using a terminal program (e.g the one supplied with the PC operating
>> system) is easy.
>
> The problem is that Windows doesn't supply a terminal program.  All it
> comes with is "Hyperterminal".  While it has the word "terminal" in
> it's name I don't think it qualifies as a terminal program.  It's so
> bad it barely qualifies as a program at all.  
>
> 1/2  ;)

It doesn't even have Hyperterminal any more...

For firmware updates I am just now trying a new method - for me - where
the bootloader emulates a USB flash drive. It wasn't too hard to get
going, has the advantage of no drivers required. Seems to work well. No
more trying to get users to install drivers, or having the windows .exe
attachments blocked by all three email accounts they give me.


-- 

John Devereux