Low cost PCB layout software

Ralph Malph wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the info, but other than this one tool, there are not
> many engineering uses for Macs; at least there are not many that
> I can use. The bulk of my work is doing DSP and FPGA design and
> FPGA tools just don't exist on the Mac.  I don't know of any DSP
> tools on the Mac either.

Please don't toppost.  Your answer belongs after the material to
which you are replying, after snipping out whatever is not
germane.

I thought MACs these days were running Linux/Unix in one form or
another.  This opens up the whole world for them.  At worst such
things as WINE and DOSEMU should allow you to run ugly Windoze and
DOS applications.

-- 
Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net)
   Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
   <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>  USE worldnet address!

In article <3FEF6F8D.BDB96B02@yahoo.com>, noone@yahoo.com says...
> Thanks for the info, but other than this one tool, there are not many
> engineering uses for Macs; at least there are not many that I can use. 
> The bulk of my work is doing DSP and FPGA design and FPGA tools just
> don't exist on the Mac.  I don't know of any DSP tools on the Mac
> either.  
> 

I was under the impression that MAC OS X was able to run many UNIX
apps.  Is this not true, or are there no DSP tools for UNIX?
> 
> Dennis Clark wrote:
> > 
>

<<SNIP>>

Mark Borgerson

"Dennis Clark" <dlc@io.frii.com> wrote in message
news:3fef283f$0$196$75868355@news.frii.net...
> Ralph Malph <noone@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Well,
>
>   I'll throw in the lone voice of the Macintosh community.  I use Osmond,
> which is currently a freeware package being created, but is VERY good.  It
> can't autoroute (which no one seems to like anyway) but it does support
> partlist and netlist files, copper floods and "ratsnesting" which allows
> you to see what pins should be connected.  Building your own libraries is
> very easy, as is doing minute individual mods after the board is done.  It
> can handle any number of board layers and does the standard modern Gerber
> and drill file outputs.  Joe (the author) also does a Gerber-to-PDF tool
> so you can look at the gerber file outputs to make yourself feel better
about
> the final product.  I've used the files on a bunch of PCB manufacturers
and
> never had any complaints.
>
>   He has both OS9 and OSX versions of the software.  You can get it here:
> http://www.swcp.com/~jchavez/osmond.html
>
>   If you are into Mac electronics, don't bother with the Douglas PC layout
> system, it looks like the last time they gave that package a facelift the
> 80286 was the hottest thing on the market...
>
>   I use LogicWorks 4.0 to do my schematic capture, then massage the parts
> and connection list files to work with Osmond to give me a GREAT CAD
package
> for PC boards.  Designworks would be a better package, but Logicworks is
> about $80 and comes with a book on Amazon.com - Osmond is free.
>
> have fun,
> DLC
>

Denis did you post in the eagle forums on the thread requesting
an eagle version for macosx ?

Can't remember which forum it was.
And don't have a link.

They were considering it a few months back.
I haven't heard anything about it since.

Alex Gibson

In article <3FEF90B2.408E1BE0@yahoo.com>,
 CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
> I thought MACs these days were running Linux/Unix in one form or
> another.  This opens up the whole world for them.  At worst such
> things as WINE and DOSEMU should allow you to run ugly Windoze and
> DOS applications.

That is correct, Mac OS X is a variant (Darwin) of FreeBSD UNIX.  X 
Windows is supported (with a free download from Apple); standard 
supplied shells are tcsh (C shell, extended) and zsh (Korn shell, 
extended).  "gcc", "cc", "ld", and "make" are present, "imake" is 
supplied with X Windows...

> That is correct, Mac OS X is a variant (Darwin) of FreeBSD UNIX.  X 
> Windows is supported (with a free download from Apple); standard 

Yes, but I hate the way Apple did it. I wish they had implemented the
new Finder as an X window manager. As it is, there is no integration
whatsoever between XWindows and "normal" applications. Particularly
disappointing in the case of openoffice.org. (sigh). But it was a
great step forward for Apple to use the UNIX kernel.

Rich Webb wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 08:54:42 -0500, Ralph Malph <noone@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >Help me with this.  I downloaded the MD5sum program and the checksum is
> >not ok, then what do I try to fix?  I have done the same downloads
> >several times from this website and they just don't seem to work.  Other
> >sites download just fine and the programs run.
> >
> >I use a download utility called Star Downloader 1.42 and have never had
> >any trouble with it before.  I repeated the download and got a different
> >wrong checksum.
> 
> Try a simple FTP from ftp://ftp.cadsoft.de/pub/program/4.11/. If you
> don't have an FTP client, there's one available from
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/filezilla

I got the file to download correctly by telling the download utility to
download it in one stream rather than in several.  I am not sure how
multiple streams helps, perhaps improving speed when the source limits
bandwidth to any one stream.  

But now that I have tried to use Eagle, I do not find it an easy to use
tool.  One of the first tasks I have is to make a foot print for a
TSSOP20 package.  I can find various commands to add the SMD pads, but
it is *extremely* tedious since I have to calculate the X,Y of every pad
and then go though a process of creating each one and moving it to the
right location using the mouse.  Since the X,Y coordinate shown depends
on where the pad is picked up using the mouse, I have to use the info
command to find the current location, make sure I pick it up by that
location and then move it to the correct location.  I tired using typed
commands for this, but the editor complains saying the move command can
only be used on "boards".  

I can't seem to find a way to pour copper on this part, which it needs
to create a large pad under the body for heat conduction.  I suppose I
could add an extra pin to the schematic and use the SMD command, but
that seems like an odd way to do it.  

All in all, this seems like yet another program that is very far from
modern GUI techniques.  I have drawn this layout in Visio to make sure
it will fit on the board and it was much, much easier to do than it is
in the board layout package.  

I have looked at the tutorial and did not find it very enlightening. 
Anyone know of other sources of info on how to use this tool?  The
manuals just don't cut it.

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 01:30:44 -0500, Ralph Malph <noone@yahoo.com>
wrote:
<snip>
>I got the file to download correctly by telling the download utility to
>download it in one stream rather than in several.  I am not sure how
>multiple streams helps, perhaps improving speed when the source limits
>bandwidth to any one stream.  
>
>But now that I have tried to use Eagle, I do not find it an easy to use
>tool.  One of the first tasks I have is to make a foot print for a
>TSSOP20 package.  I can find various commands to add the SMD pads, but
>it is *extremely* tedious since I have to calculate the X,Y of every pad
>and then go though a process of creating each one and moving it to the
>right location using the mouse.  Since the X,Y coordinate shown depends
>on where the pad is picked up using the mouse, I have to use the info
>command to find the current location, make sure I pick it up by that
>location and then move it to the correct location.  I tired using typed
>commands for this, but the editor complains saying the move command can
>only be used on "boards".  
>
>I can't seem to find a way to pour copper on this part, which it needs
>to create a large pad under the body for heat conduction.  I suppose I
>could add an extra pin to the schematic and use the SMD command, but
>that seems like an odd way to do it.  
>
>All in all, this seems like yet another program that is very far from
>modern GUI techniques.  I have drawn this layout in Visio to make sure
>it will fit on the board and it was much, much easier to do than it is
>in the board layout package.  
>
>I have looked at the tutorial and did not find it very enlightening. 
>Anyone know of other sources of info on how to use this tool?  The
>manuals just don't cut it.

Try working through the tutorial.  It isn't that difficult.  I'm
definitely no expert but to place pads at regular intervals I set the
grid to the pad spacing and set the ALTernate grid to 1/2 of the
pad spacing interval.  Then all that is needed is to select SMD, set
the pad size as needed and click away.  The right mouse button rotates
the pads as needed.  What I haven't found yet is an easy way to number
the pads as I desire.  Presently I go back and selet the RENAME tool
and edit each pad after placing them all.
BTW the grid set button is the one in the upper left corner of the
window which has a rectangular array of dimples.
The current version (4.11) has a nice feature where you can OPEN your
custom library, then from the control panel browse the other
libraries.  When you find a DEVice or PACkage that is close to what
you need, it can easily be copied to your open library.
Good luck.
-Bill Knight
R O SOftWare

> > >I use a download utility called Star Downloader 1.42 and have never had

Ah. But many, many sites say "Don't use special downloading utilities
here". Inherently risky software.

> TSSOP20 package.  I can find various commands to add the SMD pads, but
> it is *extremely* tedious since I have to calculate the X,Y of every pad
> and then go though a process of creating each one and moving it to the
> right location using the mouse.  Since the X,Y coordinate shown depends

First step: Set the grid to the pin pitch with "grid mm 1234" or "grid
mil 1234" according to the controlling dimension of the package. Next,
create an SMD with the appropriate dimensions using "smd x y 'name'".
The handle by default is in the center of the SMD. Move the mouse
cursor where you want the first pin. It's convenient if you use either
the real origin or a local origin for this. Left-click to place the
first SMD. Now move along the first edge of the device. Click on each
grid intersection until you've laid enough pins. They are
automatically numbered with incrementing numbers if you specified an
integer for 'name' above. For particularly long devices, it may be
faster to lay down eight or ten and copy them. Once you've laid down
the first edge, select all those items, click Cut, right-click
somewhere inside pin 1, click Paste, right-click twice to rotate 180
degrees, move the strip of new pads up the correct distance above the
first strip (note that the grab handle will be inside the exact center
of pad 1 and you simply move around until the coord indicator in the
ULH of the window shows you (-) the package width as the y-coord -
this is why it's helpful to use a local or global origin at pin 1).
Left-click to drop the new set of pins. They'll automatically be
numbered correctly.

> commands for this, but the editor complains saying the move command can
> only be used on "boards".  

Move doesn't move the cursor, it moves a selected item.

> I can't seem to find a way to pour copper on this part, which it needs

Use the polygon tool. Give the polygon the same name as the pin it
connects to.

> All in all, this seems like yet another program that is very far from

New software always feels this way, and CAD software is never going to
be as instant-gratification as, say, MS-Word. If you used Visio to
draw a PCB layout then you clearly have the tenacity and masochism
required to accomplish almost anything, so persevere and I'm sure
you'll get accustomed to EAGLE :)

> Anyone know of other sources of info on how to use this tool?  The
> manuals just don't cut it.

Peer support is the best way to get running with EAGLE. I never even
read the manuals (they're in my attic somewhere), although I do
frequently refer to the on-line help.

Bill Knight wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 01:30:44 -0500, Ralph Malph <noone@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> <snip>
> >But now that I have tried to use Eagle, I do not find it an easy to use
> >tool.  One of the first tasks I have is to make a foot print for a
> >TSSOP20 package.  I can find various commands to add the SMD pads, but
> >it is *extremely* tedious since I have to calculate the X,Y of every pad
> >and then go though a process of creating each one and moving it to the
> >right location using the mouse.  Since the X,Y coordinate shown depends
> >on where the pad is picked up using the mouse, I have to use the info
> >command to find the current location, make sure I pick it up by that
> >location and then move it to the correct location.  I tired using typed
> >commands for this, but the editor complains saying the move command can
> >only be used on "boards".
> >
> >I can't seem to find a way to pour copper on this part, which it needs
> >to create a large pad under the body for heat conduction.  I suppose I
> >could add an extra pin to the schematic and use the SMD command, but
> >that seems like an odd way to do it.
> >
> >All in all, this seems like yet another program that is very far from
> >modern GUI techniques.  I have drawn this layout in Visio to make sure
> >it will fit on the board and it was much, much easier to do than it is
> >in the board layout package.
> >
> >I have looked at the tutorial and did not find it very enlightening.
> >Anyone know of other sources of info on how to use this tool?  The
> >manuals just don't cut it.
> 
> Try working through the tutorial.  It isn't that difficult.  I'm
> definitely no expert but to place pads at regular intervals I set the
> grid to the pad spacing and set the ALTernate grid to 1/2 of the
> pad spacing interval.  Then all that is needed is to select SMD, set
> the pad size as needed and click away.  The right mouse button rotates
> the pads as needed.  

But the grid works in both directions, X and Y.  Just by coincidence
this worked out for this part (off by only 0.0002").  But in general the
spacing in the X and Y directions will not have a happy multiple.  I
guess I expected to have a way to enter the coordinates of a pad as text
to save all the awkward GUI mouse stuff.  But I don't see a clean way to
do that.  I would have expected an interface based on a DOS program to
have keyboard commands for this sort of thing.  


> What I haven't found yet is an easy way to number
> the pads as I desire.  Presently I go back and selet the RENAME tool
> and edit each pad after placing them all.

I did not do it, but it looks like they can be done in order and you get
the right names.  

> BTW the grid set button is the one in the upper left corner of the
> window which has a rectangular array of dimples.
> The current version (4.11) has a nice feature where you can OPEN your
> custom library, then from the control panel browse the other
> libraries.  When you find a DEVice or PACkage that is close to what
> you need, it can easily be copied to your open library.

Wow, that is only avaialble with the most current release?  Seems like a
standard sort of feature that should have been in place long ago.

Thanks for your advice.  I figured out some of it on my own, but a lot
of what you said is new and useful.  

I am drawing the footprint of a TSSOP20 with a thermal pad underneath. 
I think I have the 20 pins (SMDs) laid down ok, but I am very unclear on
how to do the thermal pad.  I added a 21st SMD in the area where the
solder mask is open for connection.  I also added the vias for thermal
connection to the back of the board.  I am unclear if this is a good way
to handle this or if I should use PADs instead.  The TI data sheet
recommends 10 vias of two different sizes, one inside the open area and
a larger via outside the open area.  I guess this was not a good chip to
use for a first try of the software.  


"Lewin A.R.W. Edwards" wrote:
> 
> > > >I use a download utility called Star Downloader 1.42 and have never had
> 
> Ah. But many, many sites say "Don't use special downloading utilities
> here". Inherently risky software.
> 
> > TSSOP20 package.  I can find various commands to add the SMD pads, but
> > it is *extremely* tedious since I have to calculate the X,Y of every pad
> > and then go though a process of creating each one and moving it to the
> > right location using the mouse.  Since the X,Y coordinate shown depends

> Peer support is the best way to get running with EAGLE. I never even
> read the manuals (they're in my attic somewhere), although I do
> frequently refer to the on-line help.

I agree as long as you don't mind answering questions :) 

Is there a better group for discussing board layout or Eagle?