Low cost PCB layout software

>I am looking for low cost PCB layout software.  My designs are not
>overly complex, and are on small boards, but I will be using very small
>parts and features ~0.4mm/0.016" pitch, .006"/.006" trace/space.  I have
>looked at a couple of web sites that list free software and have found
>two types of packages; the no strings attached open source packages that
>are not very mature or run on xNIX (and not windows) or the PCB fab
>house supplied packages that tie you to getting your boards from them.  
>
>Clearly I need something that actually works, so most of the truely free
>packages are not viable.  The PCB package from
>http://bach.ece.jhu.edu/~haceaton/pcb/ seems to work, but is not
>supported under windows.  It is not clear if it will run under Cygwin. 
>I guess I could dedicate a machine to PCB design and run Linix, but I am
>pretty sure I would end up creating problems from my lack of experience
>with *NIX.  
>
>I looked at a few of the PCB vendor packages and have done one design
>and ordered boards.  It was fairly low risk since it only cost $59
>including shipping from expressPCB.  But these boards have no soldermask
>or silk screen.  I can live without silk screen, but the solder mask is
>important when using fine pitch parts.  In general, I am not happy being
>tied to a vendor and having to duplicate the layout work to use a
>different vendor.  Reentering a schematic is no big deal, but layout is
>very time intensive and each tool is toally different.  
>
>So that brings us to the commercial layout packages.  Most of them are
>several kilobucks and out of my budget.  I found a list at
>http://www.olimex.com/pcb/dtools.html of a lot of packages, but there is
>no real info on them.  So that is why I am here.  Can I ask for opinions
>on what tools will give the best benifit for the cost of the low end
>tools?  I hate to spend even $100 on a tool that I am not sure I will
>want to continue to use, but if I have confidence that it will be a good
>tool, I would not mind paying $500.  
>
>So what are my options and how good are they for fine pitch work, up to
>6 layers?  
>
>And does anyone have any experience with TCI3?  It seems to be a free
>tool, but when I follow the link, the page is in French.  Anyone know if
>the tool can be used by English speakers (and readers)?  Any English
>docs?  I guess I could learn metric dimensions; 0.15 trace - 0.15 space

Have a look at www.seetrax.co.uk

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:50:35 -0500, Ralph Malph wrote:

> I am looking for low cost PCB layout software.  My designs are not
> -----snip-----

	Check out http://www.icadsys.com pretty complete, I've been using it for
12 years when it ran on an XT under DOS.

Paul Bealing wrote:

> 
<snip>
> I purchased Autotrax when it was first released probably 15 years ago 
> and still use it. Autotrax can be used very quickly from the keyboard 
> with little mousing. The manual editing, draging etc. is quick and easy. 
> It's also quite easy to create new component footprints.
> 
> I've recently tried other packages looking for a replacement but haven't 
> picked one yet. To get the same features you end up with a bit more at 
> prices starting at $1000 to $1500 USD, and a windows interface that's 
> quite different to Autotrax and I find slower.
> 
> Paul Bealing
> www.pmb.co.nz

One replacement for Autotrax I tried was Circuit/Traxmaker (now from 
Protel, originally from Microcode).
It's interface is similar to "Autotrax for the Mac" which it was 
probably derived from. It has a lot of autotrax type stuff which make it 
eminently recommendable. But it also violates a lot of it's own 
interface guidelines i.e. it does lack consistency in it's interface.
Anyway it is downloadable from the Protel website.

http://www.altium.com/circuitmaker/

regards Andrew

"Albert Lee Mitchell" <albmit@albert.amresearch.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.12.24.22.02.49.367761@albert.amresearch.com...
> On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:50:35 -0500, Ralph Malph wrote:
>
> > I am looking for low cost PCB layout software.  My designs are not
> > -----snip-----
>
> Check out http://www.icadsys.com pretty complete, I've been using it for
> 12 years when it ran on an XT under DOS.9

I was talking with a friend of mine the other day. We were talking about
winxp being fairly stable. "Yup," I said, "Its the most stable microsoft OS
since DOS." -- Mike

Andrew Tweddle wrote:
> Paul Bealing wrote:
> 
>>
> <snip>
> 
>> I purchased Autotrax when it was first released probably 15 years ago 
>> and still use it. Autotrax can be used very quickly from the keyboard 
>> with little mousing. The manual editing, draging etc. is quick and 
>> easy. It's also quite easy to create new component footprints.
>>
>> I've recently tried other packages looking for a replacement but 
>> haven't picked one yet. To get the same features you end up with a bit 
>> more at prices starting at $1000 to $1500 USD, and a windows interface 
>> that's quite different to Autotrax and I find slower.
>>
>> Paul Bealing
>> www.pmb.co.nz
> 
> 
> One replacement for Autotrax I tried was Circuit/Traxmaker (now from 
> Protel, originally from Microcode).
> It's interface is similar to "Autotrax for the Mac" which it was 
> probably derived from. It has a lot of autotrax type stuff which make it 
> eminently recommendable. But it also violates a lot of it's own 
> interface guidelines i.e. it does lack consistency in it's interface.
> Anyway it is downloadable from the Protel website.
> 
> http://www.altium.com/circuitmaker/
> 
> regards Andrew
> 

Yes, it's not bad; I have the demo CD.
Bad; the demo only runs for 5 or 10 minutes at a time for 30 days.
Good: it imports Autotrax files.
It's like a windows version of Autotrax with a few improvements.
It's quite expensive for just the PCB layout considering Autotrax is 
free and almost as good. The Circuitmaker packet says it includes 
schematic capture and simulation but I haven't tried these.

Another that was quite good was Protel For Windows (PFW). I've looked at 
version 2.8 (I think); again an improved Autotrax.
Problem; I don't think it's free and no longer sold.

I think Altium should continue selling the last version of PFW for about 
$250 USD.

Regards
Paul Bealing

Ralph Malph wrote:
> 
> Clearly I need something that actually works, so most of the truely free
> packages are not viable.  

Well, I have read all the replies and have looked at most, if not all of
the recommended systems.  Unfortunately I have not found any of them to
be workable (or at least easily used).  

The Eagle software from CadSoft seemed like it had the most promise, but
I tried to download the older version 4.09 as someone recommended and
could not get either release to install.  Both complain of bad files
even though I downloaded them twice.  I then tried to download 4.11 and
can't seem to connect to the server.  

So at this point I am still looking.  The Protel Autotrax software is
very much a DOS package complete with a memory manager which did not
seem to initialize correctly under Win2k.  So I don't think it is worth
trying to get it to work with a modern OS.  Other packages installed ok,
but are very limited including providing nearly no parts library.  If
they are going to limit the number of layers and pins, why don't they at
least include a moderately complete library?  My idea was to do a
simple, small project to evaluate the tool.  But with all the work
required to learn how to create my own device footprints, it is not
worth it.   

I find it expecially odd when they don't provide a file save
capability.  If you can't do *any* useful work with their eval package,
just how much time do they expect you to spend with it?  


Eagle      Cadsoft      Can't download or install
Autotrax   Protel       DOS based memory management
Easytrax   Protel       Poor UI
EasyPC     Numberone    Demo has no save or plot functionality
Cadstar    Zuken        Not simple
RangerXL   Seetrax      Still haven't gotten a password file (not sure
if it is time limited or not)

I'll keep trying to download one of the Eagle versions.  But otherwise I
have found all of these demo programs to be lacking for my needs.

Hi, the eval package is just that, your not supposed to be able to do any
useful work with it. Libraries: even the pro packages have allmost useless
ones, you will allways have to build your own. You get what you pay for (if
your lucky). If your really short of cash ask someone to layout a board for
you, when you have some sales under your belt you will have the money to buy
something worthwhile.

Ralph Malph wrote:
> The Eagle software from CadSoft seemed like it had
> the most promise, but I tried to download the older
> version 4.09 as someone recommended and could not
> get either release to install.

Ralph,

Eagle really is a good package.  It'd be worth working through your
install errors, if you've got the patience.

Cadsoft hosts newsgroups for product support, and I've been pleased with
the user community as well.  Before I bought, I scoured both to look for
the chronic complaints and found there were no serious issues, and a lot
of compliments - a nice side-effect of an open support forum.  Here are
their English newsgroups:
news://news.cadsoft.de/eagle.userchat.eng
news://news.cadsoft.de/eagle.support.eng

If you're like me, you'll dislike Eagle's mouse UI, but once you learn
the keyboard syntax things go much faster (it also has some potent
scripting capabilities).  It does take a little training; the UI is not
intuitive to newcomers.  There's a tutorial you can download from
Cadsoft's site - I highly recommend it.

The demo version is full-featured, but limited to ~4x6" board and 2
layers.  (The board, traces, and PTH can exceed this dimention, but not
component pads/holes.)  The demo sadly does not include the PDF manual,
which makes eval quite a bit harder.

And as someone else commented - when it comes to libraries, "Trust but
verify" against datasheets.  I've been very pleased with the extensive
Eagle library, though I have found a few errors (like pad spacing on an
SMT package).  The good thing is... it's fairly easy to publish the
corrections to the user community.

> The Eagle software from CadSoft seemed like it had the most promise, but
> I tried to download the older version 4.09 as someone recommended and
> could not get either release to install.  Both complain of bad files

This is really bizarre. What OS are you trying to install on? Are you
running antivirus software, automatic file restoration utilities or
other weird programs that may be hooking file I/O?

My guess is that you probably downloaded with Internet Explorer, and
the download silently timed out, so you have a partial file only. Try,
try again :) Eagle has one of the least restricted eval modes you'll
find.

CBarn24050 wrote:
> 
> Hi, the eval package is just that, your not supposed to be able to do any
> useful work with it. Libraries: even the pro packages have allmost useless
> ones, you will allways have to build your own. You get what you pay for (if
> your lucky). If your really short of cash ask someone to layout a board for
> you, when you have some sales under your belt you will have the money to buy
> something worthwhile.

Only a few companies set up the tools to prevent you from doing any work
at all.  Most allow you to do small boards with limitations on the pin
counts or nets or similar.  This is exactly what I want to do.  But most
of these make the process very hard by expecting you to make your own
library of parts (unless you are still working with 1/4 watt axial
resistors and DIPs).  

My time is not worthless and I expect a vendor to allow me to truely
evaluate a tool before I buy.  I never said I was looking for a free
lunch.  I just want to buy one tool that I know I will continue to use
rather than to pay for a tool and expect to have to pay for another one
when this one doesn't work out.  To ask me to spend time to learn their
tool that won't even save my work, is not only a waste of my time, it is
absurd!  I couldn't even begin to evaluate a product if I have to start
over every time I have to leave it and do some real work!