Good Hardware Tools

On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 09:05:12 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote:

>On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 11:04:11 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: 
>> 
>> <snip>
>> > 
>> >How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two compartments when using a single compressor?
>> I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ 
>> years old Bosch) did it too. There is no air connection between 
>> freeze and cool department. Both the old and new fridge both have a 
>> digital display where you set freeze and cool temperatures 
>> independently. They must have some valve or other control thing for 
>> it. In fact, some fridges have even different temparature zones 
>> inside the cooler department.
>
>Being able to set independent temperatures does not mean there are two coils with valves.  It is much more likely to have a controlled damper to modulate the amount of cold air from the freezer entering the refrigerator.   My refrigerator has a fan, but I can't say for sure where it blows, freezer only or freezer and refrigerator.  

Like I wrote above, there is _no_ connection between freeze and cool
compartments. Not on our old and not on our current fridge. Both are
combined freeze/cool fridges with the 3-drawer freeze section at the
bottom. The cooler section has its coil after the back wall of the
compartment, you can feel it getting colder if it's running. I wonder
too if a controlled air movement damper is not more expensive than
two on-off valves for freeze/cool coils, plus less prone to error.

>> >If you set your refrigerator to -3&deg;C, don't things freeze? My fridge would sometimes freeze things in the bottom when the temperature was set below 40&deg;F (5&deg;C).
>> Never, because cool and freeze are completely independent, even 
>> though they must share the same motor, at least on my model, a 
>> Liebherr CP4813. The energy differences between modern fridges can 
>> run in the hundreds of kWhs per year, according to a consumer test 
>> here; energy use was a selection criteria for us. 
>
>Sorry, I can't follow your reasoning.  If you set the refrigerator temperature to -3&deg;C, it should freeze things.  Do I misunderstand the Celsius scale?  Or does your refrigerator not keep things at the set temperature?  

Ah, I missed the minus sign, sorry. Yes it would freeze up, if I
could do that, but the fridge won't allow me. I never tried it on the
old one (also digitally controlled), but the current one allows
selection only from +1 to +9 C for the cooler compartment. The freeze
section is adjustable from -26 to -16 C. 

Control seems to be accurate too. If I measure the white back wall of
the cooler compartment with an infrared thermometer, it is within 0.1
C of the set 4 degrees centigrade. On white painted metal the
measurement should be fairly accurate.

Mat Nieuwenhoven

On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 3:43:55 AM UTC-5, Tauno Voipio wrote:
> On 29.11.20 4.07, Rick C wrote: 
> > On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 8:57:43 PM UTC-5, Richard Damon wrote: 
> >> On 11/28/20 6:16 PM, Rick C wrote: 
> >>> On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 3:53:57 PM UTC-5, Grant Edwards wrote: 
> >>>> On 2020-11-28, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: 
> >>>>> On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> <snip> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two 
> >>>>>> compartments when using a single compressor? 
> >>>> Well, a lot of european refrigerators do have two compressors. I know 
> >>>> mine does. There's no air connection between freezer and refrigerator 
> >>>> and there are two completely separate thermostats. 
> >>>>> I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ 
> >>>>> years old Bosch) did it too. 
> >>>> Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. 
> >>> 
> >>> That has to be an expensive refrigerator. Two of everything makes for a lot of works. I can't see the need. With the thermostat in the refrigerator and the evaporator around the freezer, the unit will run until the refrigerator is cold and by then the freezer will be adequately cold. That can be adjusted by adjusting the air flow between the two. I can't see adding a second compressor to take the place of an air damper. 
> >>> 
> >> You don't actually need a second compressor. You just need a seperate 
> >> cooler coil to cool the refrigerator compartment, and control valves to 
> >> select which cooling coils are being feed by the compressor based on the 
> >> demands. 
> > 
> > That's not the issue. The issue is there is added cost with little gain. Someone mentioned a unit with multiple freezer compartments. It would be a very specialized use to need multiple freezer compartments in a single refrigerator. None of that makes any sense to me. 
> >
> There is the gain: you can keep the fridge slightly above freezing 
> and the freeze side well frozen if there are two cooling systems. 
> A single-compressor unit relies on suitable thermal leak out of 
> the fridge side to keep the temperature difference between the 
> compartments. 

Yes, an adjustable leak, although I think you are ignoring that the refrigerator compartment is where the thermostat is typically located.  The adjustment process is to set the temperature of the refrigerator and adjust the damper to control the portion of cooling that reaches the refrigerator compartment with the rest remaining to cool the freezer.  Adjust the damper to give the desired freezer temperature. 

The point is unless there is some reason why this won''t work in a particular case, the added cost of the multiple thermal zone is unwarranted. 


-- 

Rick C.

---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 9:22:50 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 15:16:07 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: 
> 
> >On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 3:53:57 PM UTC-5, Grant Edwards wrote: 
> >> On 2020-11-28, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: 
> >> > On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: 
> >> > 
> >> ><snip> 
> >> >> 
> >> >>How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two 
> >> >>compartments when using a single compressor? 
> >> Well, a lot of european refrigerators do have two compressors. I know 
> >> mine does. There's no air connection between freezer and refrigerator 
> >> and there are two completely separate thermostats. 
> >> > I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ 
> >> > years old Bosch) did it too. 
> >> Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. 
> > 
> >That has to be an expensive refrigerator. Two of everything makes for a lot of works. I can't see the need. With the thermostat in the refrigerator and the evaporator around the freezer, the unit will run until the refrigerator is cold and by then the freezer will be adequately cold. That can be adjusted by adjusting the air flow between the two. I can't see adding a second compressor to take the place of an air damper.
> They really do have a single compressor, control is fully electronic, 
> and whatever they use for separate control must make it worthwhile, 
> they seem to use less energy judging from the brochures. Only the 
> cheapest fridges have a single mechanical control on the cooler 
> compartment. Seperate controls also mean that freezing in a large 
> numer of goods doesn't affect the cool compartment's temperature. 
> 
> I don't know what you'd call expensive, ours was less than 800 
> euro's. 

I haven't bought a fridge in over 30 years, so I have no idea what is cheap.  The point is how much of that 800 Euros went to paying for the added technology?  What did you get for it?  I bet you would have to add instrumentation to tell the difference.  In other words, no observable benefit.  

-- 

Rick C.

--+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 11:30:16 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 09:05:12 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: 
> 
> >On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 11:04:11 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: 
> >> On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: 
> >> 
> >> <snip> 
> >> > 
> >> >How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two compartments when using a single compressor? 
> >> I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ 
> >> years old Bosch) did it too. There is no air connection between 
> >> freeze and cool department. Both the old and new fridge both have a 
> >> digital display where you set freeze and cool temperatures 
> >> independently. They must have some valve or other control thing for 
> >> it. In fact, some fridges have even different temparature zones 
> >> inside the cooler department. 
> > 
> >Being able to set independent temperatures does not mean there are two coils with valves. It is much more likely to have a controlled damper to modulate the amount of cold air from the freezer entering the refrigerator. My refrigerator has a fan, but I can't say for sure where it blows, freezer only or freezer and refrigerator.
> Like I wrote above, there is _no_ connection between freeze and cool 
> compartments. Not on our old and not on our current fridge. Both are 
> combined freeze/cool fridges with the 3-drawer freeze section at the 
> bottom. The cooler section has its coil after the back wall of the 
> compartment, you can feel it getting colder if it's running. I wonder 
> too if a controlled air movement damper is not more expensive than 
> two on-off valves for freeze/cool coils, plus less prone to error.
> >> >If you set your refrigerator to -3&deg;C, don't things freeze? My fridge would sometimes freeze things in the bottom when the temperature was set below 40&deg;F (5&deg;C). 
> >> Never, because cool and freeze are completely independent, even 
> >> though they must share the same motor, at least on my model, a 
> >> Liebherr CP4813. The energy differences between modern fridges can 
> >> run in the hundreds of kWhs per year, according to a consumer test 
> >> here; energy use was a selection criteria for us. 
> > 
> >Sorry, I can't follow your reasoning. If you set the refrigerator temperature to -3&deg;C, it should freeze things. Do I misunderstand the Celsius scale? Or does your refrigerator not keep things at the set temperature?
> Ah, I missed the minus sign, sorry. Yes it would freeze up, if I 
> could do that, but the fridge won't allow me. I never tried it on the 
> old one (also digitally controlled), but the current one allows 
> selection only from +1 to +9 C for the cooler compartment. The freeze 
> section is adjustable from -26 to -16 C. 
> 
> Control seems to be accurate too. If I measure the white back wall of 
> the cooler compartment with an infrared thermometer, it is within 0.1 
> C of the set 4 degrees centigrade. On white painted metal the 
> measurement should be fairly accurate. 

The infrared thermometer you are using is likely &plusmn;3&deg;C at best.  You'll be luck to see &plusmn;2&deg;C of consistency in temperatures around the inside of the fridge, so talking about that sort of accuracy is delving into fantasy.  I would also point out that white is a poor color for emissivity and will give the worst result.  Black gives a more accurate indication of it's own temperature, but the thermometer is calibrated for some value of emissivity and any other value gives additional error.  

The -3&deg;C refrigerator temperature setting was from your post, so I'll let you figure that out.  

-- 

Rick C.

---++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 11/29/2020 7:22 AM, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote:
> They really do have a single compressor, control is fully electronic,

Of course!  You don't put a separate FURNACE in each zone of a multizoned
home/office!

They operate on exactly the same principle as the minisplits that
are increasingly common -- why cool an entire home to the same
temperature when you're likely only using certain rooms at certain
times of day?  Put a single compressor/condenser on the roof (or
on a slab beside the house) and run separate evaporators to each
zone/room.

The advantage of having more than two "zones" (in a refrigerator)
lies in how you use each.  Do you want more freezer space, today?
Or cooling space?  Do you want to have a compartment that is
considerably colder than the normal freezer and contains rarely
accessed items (so you can leave that air volume completely sealed
for most of the time)?

And, of course, each evaporator only has to deal with a much smaller
volume instead of having to support "leakage" to a large volume.

> and whatever they use for separate control must make it worthwhile,
> they seem to use less energy judging from the brochures. Only the
> cheapest fridges have a single mechanical control on the cooler
> compartment. Seperate controls also mean that freezing in a large
> numer of goods doesn't affect the cool compartment's temperature.

Exactly.  And, if you have a separate compartment (in addition to
the normal freezer) that you can use for that purpose, then the
already *frozen* foods don't "suffer" from the introduction of
nearby "room temperature" goods.

[When I make Marinara/Bolognese sauce, I have to chill the
containers (16 qts) in an ice bath before introducing them
to the freezer as freezers aren't designed to handle such
large, HOT loads.  And, you want to be able to quickly cool
such things to avoid the growth of pathogens.]

> I don't know what you'd call expensive, ours was less than 800
> euro's.

It is not uncommon to see refrigerators selling for $2K - $4K
in big-box stores.

On 2020-11-29, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 20:53:51 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:

>>Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did.
>
> I did not see a second compressor. [...]
>
> I'm not sure that "a lot of european refrigerators" have two
> compressors. Maybe the side-by-side fridges, they consume much more
> energy.

Maybe they just have two evaporator circuits and I've always
misunderstood the brochure descriptions as meaning that there are two
compressors.

--
Grant

On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 6:24:28 PM UTC-5, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2020-11-29, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: 
> > On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 20:53:51 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote: 
> 
> >>Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. 
> >
> > I did not see a second compressor. [...]
> > 
> > I'm not sure that "a lot of european refrigerators" have two 
> > compressors. Maybe the side-by-side fridges, they consume much more 
> > energy.
> Maybe they just have two evaporator circuits and I've always 
> misunderstood the brochure descriptions as meaning that there are two 
> compressors. 

If they have a single compressor, it would be sized to match the coils... but which one?  What happens if one compartment demands cooling while the other is already demanding cooling.  Are both coils driven?  If not, does one compartment continue to warm up while the other compartment is cooled?  If both coils are connected to the single compressor at the same time, is the design optimized for working with both coils or just one?  

Having two evaporators seems like a poor compromise no matter how you look at it.  Two compressors is a lot more expensive, but would work most efficiently and effectively which I thought was the point of using two evaporator coils.  I don't see anything wrong with using a single compressor circuit with it cooling both the freezer and fridge.  

I've had mine on a power monitor for a day now and it seems to run most of the time at around 170 watts.  I noticed overnight it cut off every couple of hours for about a half hour.  I've also seen the power spike significantly, then dip for a half hour or so.  I think that's the defrost cycle.  It was accidentally turned off for a couple of hours today and the inside temperatures barely changed.  Tomorrow the power monitor (which is actually a power timer switch) will cut if off from 6am to 9am.  I'll measure the temp at 9am.   I don't know if I can download a record of the usage.  I should check.  It keeps detailed info for a day and daily numbers for a month, then monthly data for a year.  No, looks like no downloading possible. 

-- 

Rick C.

-+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 11:00:36 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote:

>On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 3:43:55 AM UTC-5, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>> On 29.11.20 4.07, Rick C wrote: 
>> > On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 8:57:43 PM UTC-5, Richard Damon wrote: 
>> >> On 11/28/20 6:16 PM, Rick C wrote: 
>> >>> On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 3:53:57 PM UTC-5, Grant Edwards wrote: 
>> >>>> On 2020-11-28, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: 
>> >>>>> On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: 
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>>> <snip> 
>> >>>>>> 
>> >>>>>> How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two 
>> >>>>>> compartments when using a single compressor? 
>> >>>> Well, a lot of european refrigerators do have two compressors. I know 
>> >>>> mine does. There's no air connection between freezer and refrigerator 
>> >>>> and there are two completely separate thermostats. 
>> >>>>> I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ 
>> >>>>> years old Bosch) did it too. 
>> >>>> Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. 
>> >>> 
>> >>> That has to be an expensive refrigerator. Two of everything makes for a lot of works. I can't see the need. With the thermostat in the refrigerator and the evaporator around the freezer, the unit will run until the refrigerator is cold and by then the freezer will be adequately cold. That can be adjusted by adjusting the air flow between the two. I can't see adding a second compressor to take the place of an air damper. 
>> >>> 
>> >> You don't actually need a second compressor. You just need a seperate 
>> >> cooler coil to cool the refrigerator compartment, and control valves to 
>> >> select which cooling coils are being feed by the compressor based on the 
>> >> demands. 
>> > 
>> > That's not the issue. The issue is there is added cost with little gain.. Someone mentioned a unit with multiple freezer compartments. It would be a very specialized use to need multiple freezer compartments in a single refrigerator. None of that makes any sense to me. 
>> >
>> There is the gain: you can keep the fridge slightly above freezing 
>> and the freeze side well frozen if there are two cooling systems. 
>> A single-compressor unit relies on suitable thermal leak out of 
>> the fridge side to keep the temperature difference between the 
>> compartments. 
>
>Yes, an adjustable leak, although I think you are ignoring that the refrigerator compartment is where the thermostat is typically located.  The adjustment process is to set the temperature of the refrigerator and adjust the damper to control the portion of cooling that reaches the refrigerator compartment with the rest remaining to cool the freezer.  Adjust the damper to give the desired freezer temperature. 
>
>The point is unless there is some reason why this won''t work in a particular case, the added cost of the multiple thermal zone is unwarranted. 

Well, one case is where you want seperate control in temperature of
freeze and cool section. I've looked at a brochure, and in almost all
cases the simpler fridges only let you adjust the temperature of the
cooling secion. The freeze section is only specified as "3=1 stars"
or so.

Mat Nieuwenhoven

On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 11:10:59 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote:

>On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 11:30:16 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 09:05:12 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: 
>> 
>> >On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 11:04:11 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: 
>> >> On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: 
>> >> 
>> >> <snip> 
>> >> > 
>> >> >How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two compartments when using a single compressor? 
>> >> I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ 
>> >> years old Bosch) did it too. There is no air connection between 
>> >> freeze and cool department. Both the old and new fridge both have a 
>> >> digital display where you set freeze and cool temperatures 
>> >> independently. They must have some valve or other control thing for 
>> >> it. In fact, some fridges have even different temparature zones 
>> >> inside the cooler department. 
>> > 
>> >Being able to set independent temperatures does not mean there are two coils with valves. It is much more likely to have a controlled damper to modulate the amount of cold air from the freezer entering the refrigerator. My refrigerator has a fan, but I can't say for sure where it blows, freezer only or freezer and refrigerator.
>> Like I wrote above, there is _no_ connection between freeze and cool 
>> compartments. Not on our old and not on our current fridge. Both are 
>> combined freeze/cool fridges with the 3-drawer freeze section at the 
>> bottom. The cooler section has its coil after the back wall of the 
>> compartment, you can feel it getting colder if it's running. I wonder 
>> too if a controlled air movement damper is not more expensive than 
>> two on-off valves for freeze/cool coils, plus less prone to error.
>> >> >If you set your refrigerator to -3&deg;C, don't things freeze? My fridge would sometimes freeze things in the bottom when the temperature was set below 40&deg;F (5&deg;C). 
>> >> Never, because cool and freeze are completely independent, even 
>> >> though they must share the same motor, at least on my model, a 
>> >> Liebherr CP4813. The energy differences between modern fridges can 
>> >> run in the hundreds of kWhs per year, according to a consumer test 
>> >> here; energy use was a selection criteria for us. 
>> > 
>> >Sorry, I can't follow your reasoning. If you set the refrigerator temperature to -3&deg;C, it should freeze things. Do I misunderstand the Celsius scale? Or does your refrigerator not keep things at the set temperature?
>> Ah, I missed the minus sign, sorry. Yes it would freeze up, if I 
>> could do that, but the fridge won't allow me. I never tried it on the 
>> old one (also digitally controlled), but the current one allows 
>> selection only from +1 to +9 C for the cooler compartment. The freeze 
>> section is adjustable from -26 to -16 C. 
>> 
>> Control seems to be accurate too. If I measure the white back wall of 
>> the cooler compartment with an infrared thermometer, it is within 0.1 
>> C of the set 4 degrees centigrade. On white painted metal the 
>> measurement should be fairly accurate. 
>
>The infrared thermometer you are using is likely &plusmn;3&deg;C at best.  You'll be luck to see &plusmn;2&deg;C of consistency in temperatures around the inside of the fridge, so talking about that sort of accuracy is delving into fantasy.  I would also point out that white is a poor color for emissivity and will give the worst result.  Black gives a more accurate indication of it's own temperature, but the thermometer is calibrated for some value of emissivity and any other value gives additional error.  

You're right of course, the accuracy was unwarranted because of the
unknown emissivity. The spec of the thermometer says  +/- 1.5 % or
+/- 1.5 % of the measured value (it goes up to 380 C). So in case it
displays 4.0 C the accuracy is 0.06 C, and the single decimal is
fully warranted.
The emissivity is unknown, but I've measured multiple items with
different colors on the same item, and it does not seem to vary much.
The only significant deviation so far is on our central heating
radiators where the thermostat valve is some kind of shiny metal: the
radiator itself just behind the valve might read 61C, the valve
itself through which the hot water enters the radiator reads 29C, and
it is all metal.

Mat Nieuwenhoven

On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 17:57:42 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote:

>On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 6:24:28 PM UTC-5, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2020-11-29, Mat Nieuwenhoven <mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: 
>> > On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 20:53:51 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote: 
>> 
>> >>Maybe they had two compressors. I thought most Bosch ones did. 
>> >
>> > I did not see a second compressor. [...]
>> > 
>> > I'm not sure that "a lot of european refrigerators" have two 
>> > compressors. Maybe the side-by-side fridges, they consume much more 
>> > energy.
>> Maybe they just have two evaporator circuits and I've always 
>> misunderstood the brochure descriptions as meaning that there are two 
>> compressors. 
>
>If they have a single compressor, it would be sized to match the coils... but which one?  What happens if one compartment demands cooling while the other is already demanding cooling.  Are both coils driven?  If not, does one compartment continue to warm up while the other compartment is cooled?  If both coils are connected to the single compressor at the same time, is the design optimized for working with both coils or just one?  

I bet boith coils are driven. There is a "super freeze" mode on it
which you can use to cool down the freeze section quickly if you
filled it completely with unfrozen food; that times out after 65
hours. I've never used it on our current fridge, but on the old one
twice or so, and the cooling section stayed on the temperature as
set.as 

>Having two evaporators seems like a poor compromise no matter how you look at it.  Two compressors is a lot more expensive, but would work most efficiently and effectively which I thought was the point of using two evaporator coils.  I don't see anything wrong with using a single compressor circuit with it cooling both the freezer and fridge.  

Two compressors are rare. It must be one compressor with two coils.
If the freeze section is below the cool section (which is the vast
majority) , there cannot be air leak (cold doesn't move upwards)
unless there is a ventilator to move the air around.

>I've had mine on a power monitor for a day now and it seems to run most of the time at around 170 watts.  I noticed overnight it cut off every couple of hours for about a half hour.  I've also seen the power spike significantly, then dip for a half hour or so.  I think that's the defrost cycle.  It was accidentally turned off for a couple of hours today and the inside temperatures barely changed.  Tomorrow the power monitor (which is actually a power timer switch) will cut if off from 6am to 9am.  I'll measure the temp at 9am.   I don't know if I can download a record of the usage.  I should check.  It keeps detailed info for a day and daily numbers for a month, then monthly data for a year.  No, looks like no downloading possible. 

Seriously, 170 W and running most of the time? That could be 1000 kWh
per year. Ours runs shortly every few hours, I have not timed it but
it seems to be off most of the time. I'll see if there's a cheap
logging power monitor to be had, just to log how often and long it
runs. The actual energy use I can measure, but that device is in use
for this week.

Mat Nieuwenhoven