Requesting help from EAGLE PCB users

"Tim Wescott" <tim@seemywebsite.com> wrote in message
news:cJednZPGxKxR3oLZnZ2dnUVZ_uudnZ2d@web-ster.com...
> You do _not_ need more than 2 layers!  Most board houses do plated
> through holes as a matter of course (do check, of course).  As long as
> the board house is plating through its holes and you are making your via
> holes big enough for the board house they will work..
>
> --
>
> Tim Wescott
> Wescott Design Services
> http://www.wescottdesign.com
>
> Posting from Google?  See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/

Okies, understood :)

"Tim Wescott" <tim@seemywebsite.com> wrote in message
news:cJednZHGxKxY34LZnZ2dnUVZ_uudnZ2d@web-ster.com...
> techie_alison wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Please may I request help from an Eagle PCB designer users out there?
> > Alison
> >
> >
> When a board manufacturer talks about "layers" they mean the number of
> layers of copper -- so a "2 layer" board is a single piece of insulator
> with copper on top & bottom, where a 4-layer board has four layers of
> copper, etc.
>
> PC board software talks about silk, dimension, etc., layers.  These
> aren't 'real' layers in the sense of copper.  The only ones that really
> matter are the dimension layer, which the board house will want to use
> for cutting out the board, plus the top & bottom solder mask and the top
>   & possibly bottom silkscreen for component legends.  If you're doing a
> quick-turn board you can often save money and time by leaving out the
> silk and solder masks -- you get a board that's a bit harder to work
> with, but much less expensive and with a shorter turn around.
>
> Hopefully someone will direct you to a good company in the UK.  Here in
> the US I use PCB Express: http://www.pcbexpress.com/.  While you don't
> want to have stuff shipped from Oregon, their site may help you figure
> out what questions to ask, and their guidelines are pretty good for just
> about any board house.  Somewhere on there they have a link to a free
> Gerber viewer that you can use as a last minute check to make sure that
> your output was sensible.
>
> --
>
> Tim Wescott
> Wescott Design Services
> http://www.wescottdesign.com
>
> Posting from Google?  See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/

Yep, am visualising it in terms of the early PC motherboards which were
originally 2 layer (original IBM PC 256K) and then went to 4 layer, and
wherever they are now (8, 16 layer).  ie. when one looks at the side of the
board you can see the multiple sandwiches.

Would definitely go for a top and bottom silkscreen, not entirely clear on
the solder masks though.

Regarding companies who make up PCBs while looking on the Eagle site last
night found dozens (some in the UK) who prototype straight from the .brd
files produced by Eagle.  Their prices are quite competitive with sample
quotes, ie. 2 160x100 PCBs = &#4294967295;50 with 10ish day turnaround.
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/Boardhouses/

The other thing that's crossed my mind is approaching a local educational
college, who often have the required equipment.  I'll write over a letter to
see if they'd like to give some students the opportunity to make a few &#4294967295;&#4294967295; as
well as the college.

"larwe" <zwsdotcom@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1142901194.026703.19090@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> techie_alison wrote:
> > manfacturer in Gerber format.  I see alot of manufacturers quoting 2
layer
> > boards for 1 price, then 4 layer boards etc. etc.  I'm guessing this
refers
> > to multi layered boards with additional tracks sandwiched inside the
board?
> > But using Eagle it also refers to layers such as top, bottom, pads,
holes
> > etc. etc.  These wouldn't each count in PCB terms would they?
>
> Look at the help for the CAM processor, it tells you what layers are
> turned on for which output files.
>
> For a 2-layer board, you will wind up with at least the following:
>
> - drill CNC control file
> - top copper
> - bottom copper
>
> If your design requires it, you might also have:
>
> - top soldermask
> - bottom soldermask
>
> If your cosmetic sense demands it, you might also have:
>
> - top silkscreen
> - bottom silkscreen
>
> If your design requires a SMD stencil, you might also wind up with
>
> - top solder paste ("tCream and bCream")
> - bottom solder paste
>
> And so on. All those files are RS274-X Gerbers except for the CNC file,
> which will usually be an Excellon file.
>
> The "layers" in EAGLE are logical names referring to entities you might
> want to turn off and on for visibility reasons; they have nothing
> directly to do with the physical layers on the PCB.
>
> I can send you a sample CAM job control file that outputs all the
> correct files for a 2-layer PCB with silkscreen on one side and
> soldermask on both sides, if you like. The procedure is then:
>
> - RUN drillcfg.ulp to generate the drill list for your board. Save this
> in a convenient directory
> - Open CAM processor
> - Load CAM job
> - Edit paths for output files and make sure the drill page references
> the drill list file you saved in the first step
> - Click "Process Job"
>

Brilliant info!! thank you :)  If I can avoid Gerbers I may just go with
these boardhouses which can take straight .brd files.  Thinking about your
offer of a sample CAM file, am going to see how I get on today with
approaching these .brd companies in the UK.

"JeffM" <jeffm_@email.com> wrote in message
news:1142907258.724093.117150@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >...help from an Eagle PCB designer users out there?
> > Alison (techie_alison)
>
> I think you got most of your points covered, but the place
> where you find the highest concentration oF EAGLE knowledge is:
>
> Inside-the-loop Cadsoft guys (Employees)[1]
> news://news.cadsoft.de/eagle.support.eng
>
> (Odd name--considering developments since Usenet started,
> but I think you get the point)[2]
> news://news.cadsoft.de/eagle.userchat.eng
>
> Since you're using something that kinda resembles a newsreader,
> you should try to access them.
> .
> .
> There is also a group here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eaglecad/
> .
> .
> [1] Others are free to recommend solutions as well.
> [2] You get crossover from the factory guys here as well.
>

lol, 'something that kinda resembles a newsreader', yep, Outlook, ermmmmmmm.

Found the groups last night on cadsofts site;
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/forum.htm

"Steve at fivetrees" <steve@NOSPAMTAfivetrees.com> wrote in message
news:kcCdnTFiqIjSN4LZnZ2dnUVZ8qadnZ2d@pipex.net...
> "techie_alison" <retro@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
> news:dvnda6$odo$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> > The prices we were used to paying were about &#4294967295;80 for 100 or so boards,
and
> > I
> > was quoted &#4294967295;700 odd pounds by a company today who want to do a complete
> > redesign when I already have a product.
>
> Your original prices sound about right for lowish volumes. Having taken a
> look at your jpg, I can't see anything obvious that would require a
> redesign.
>
> I use a company near Bristol for PCB design and manufacture:
>  http://www.smbdesigns.co.uk/
>
> Maybe they can help. They have a clue.
>
> Steve
> http://www.fivetrees.com
>
>

thanks Steve :-)

that &#4294967295;700 figure I think they thought I was some desperate dizzy dolly bird
without a clue (erm..).

going to get the .brd corrected today and send out for a few lowish quotes.

On Tuesday, in article
     <dvoa6t$sbp$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
     retro@dial.pipex.com "techie_alison" wrote:
>"Tim Wescott" <tim@seemywebsite.com> wrote in message
>news:cJednZHGxKxY34LZnZ2dnUVZ_uudnZ2d@web-ster.com...
>> techie_alison wrote:
>>
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > Please may I request help from an Eagle PCB designer users out there?
>> > Alison
>> >
>> >
>> When a board manufacturer talks about "layers" they mean the number of
>> layers of copper -- so a "2 layer" board is a single piece of insulator
>> with copper on top & bottom, where a 4-layer board has four layers of
>> copper, etc.
>>
>> PC board software talks about silk, dimension, etc., layers.  These

...

>> Hopefully someone will direct you to a good company in the UK.  Here in
>> the US I use PCB Express: http://www.pcbexpress.com/.  While you don't
...

>Yep, am visualising it in terms of the early PC motherboards which were
>originally 2 layer (original IBM PC 256K) and then went to 4 layer, and
>wherever they are now (8, 16 layer).  ie. when one looks at the side of the
>board you can see the multiple sandwiches.
>
>Would definitely go for a top and bottom silkscreen, not entirely clear on
>the solder masks though.

Considering you have what looks like only 1 capacitor on the bottom of the
board I would only bother with doing a

        2 sided PCB
        both sides solder mask
                (makes soldering the components easier)
        top side silkscreen ident
                (mainly so the chip can be orientated correctly)

This at places like pcb-pool <http://www.pcbpool.com/> is a fairly standard
and cheap variant and would be pretty good prices for your board size. Not
doing the solder masks on both sides does drop the cost further.

>Regarding companies who make up PCBs while looking on the Eagle site last
>night found dozens (some in the UK) who prototype straight from the .brd
>files produced by Eagle.  Their prices are quite competitive with sample
>quotes, ie. 2 160x100 PCBs = ?50 with 10ish day turnaround.
>http://www.cadsoftusa.com/Boardhouses/

Quite a few do a faster turnaround than that, however get quotes from
each of them (quite a few do it online) for the whole PCB supply including
tooling.

>The other thing that's crossed my mind is approaching a local educational
>college, who often have the required equipment.  I'll write over a letter to
>see if they'd like to give some students the opportunity to make a few ?? as
>well as the college.

Depends on the college, and they don't work on the same type of deadlines
as you do, they are more likely to be interested if they can design the
circuit and/or layout as well. I would only approach them if the job was
not time critical in any way.

-- 
Paul Carpenter          | paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk
<http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/>    PC Services
<http://www.gnuh8.org.uk/>              GNU H8 & mailing list info
<http://www.badweb.org.uk/>             For those web sites you hate

"Paul Carpenter" <paul$@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> wrote in message
news:20060321.0922.315797snz@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk...
>
> >> Hopefully someone will direct you to a good company in the UK.  Here in
> >> the US I use PCB Express: http://www.pcbexpress.com/.  While you don't
> ...
> Considering you have what looks like only 1 capacitor on the bottom of the
> board I would only bother with doing a
>
>         2 sided PCB
>         both sides solder mask
>                 (makes soldering the components easier)
>         top side silkscreen ident
>                 (mainly so the chip can be orientated correctly)
>
> This at places like pcb-pool <http://www.pcbpool.com/> is a fairly
standard
> and cheap variant and would be pretty good prices for your board size. Not
> doing the solder masks on both sides does drop the cost further.
>
> Quite a few do a faster turnaround than that, however get quotes from
> each of them (quite a few do it online) for the whole PCB supply including
> tooling.
>
> >The other thing that's crossed my mind is approaching a local educational
> >college, who often have the required equipment.  I'll write over a letter
to
> >see if they'd like to give some students the opportunity to make a few ??
as
> >well as the college.
>
> Depends on the college, and they don't work on the same type of deadlines
> as you do, they are more likely to be interested if they can design the
> circuit and/or layout as well. I would only approach them if the job was
> not time critical in any way.
>
> --
> Paul Carpenter          | paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk
> <http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/>    PC Services
> <http://www.gnuh8.org.uk/>              GNU H8 & mailing list info
> <http://www.badweb.org.uk/>             For those web sites you hate
>

Hi Paul,

Thanks for replying.  I'm waiting to hear back from 4 companies at the
moment to see what they come up with.  They have the .brd and the images
below.

To save further debate, here's my original PCBs;
http://www.retro.dial.pipex.com/pest/pest_top.jpg and
http://www.retro.dial.pipex.com/pest/pest_bot.jpg .  The fresh .brd is now
here; http://www.retro.dial.pipex.com/pest/pest.brd

Truth is I haven't the faintest idea what the specs are for those boards in
PCB terms.  They're about 25mm x 30mm, and I'm guessing with soldermask, and
top silkscreen.

What I'm really trying to do is to get as many for as little &#4294967295;&#4294967295; as possible.
I guess the silkscreen (lettering) could go, not important.  We were paying
about &#4294967295;80 for about 100 of those boards in 2 weeks or so.  I've put this to
the 4 companies I've emailed.

It'd be great if anyone could tell me what the specs of these boards are.
Sorry to be a thick on this, this is a learning curve.  :)

Thanks,

Aly

"techie_alison" <retro@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:dvon85$qlu$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

I've just been quoted &#4294967295;300 for 100 boards, what a bloody rip-off!!  We were
paying &#4294967295;80 before.

"techie_alison" <retro@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message 
news:dvoqvb$5qn$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
> "techie_alison" <retro@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
> news:dvon85$qlu$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
> I've just been quoted &#4294967295;300 for 100 boards, what a bloody rip-off!!  We 
> were
> paying &#4294967295;80 before.

That almost certainly includes non-recurring charges such as photoplots and 
tooling. Maybe get a quote for repeat orders? That would give you a better 
comparison.

Steve
http://www.fivetrees.com 

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:18:51 +0000 (UTC), the renowned "techie_alison"
<retro@dial.pipex.com> wrote:

>
>"techie_alison" <retro@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
>news:dvon85$qlu$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
>I've just been quoted &#4294967295;300 for 100 boards, what a bloody rip-off!!  We were
>paying &#4294967295;80 before.

Your order would be considered down in the nuisance range by many
production board houses, so you just have to find one or two among the
thousands out there that want your kind of business. At this level,
the cost is really dominated by setup costs, not by board area. Some
suppliers are set up to do tiny prototype level orders, others want to
churn out more stuff. Your 100 boards will just about fit in a padded
envelope! No forklift required.. 

Specs for the board? You have to be a bit careful- if you underspecify
you may get bad results, if you overspecify the price may go up or you
may get no-bids or "go away" quotes. You'll get enough of those
anyway. 

Try something like: 

FR-4 material, double-sided with plated through holes
Board dimensions (INCLUDING THICKNESS**)
Solder mask both sides 
Silk screen one side
<BOARD FINISH>*
NO testing required+

+I don't think it's worth it on such a simple board in such low
quantities... (but it looks like your assembled version almost has a
top-layer short between the microcontroller pin 13 pad and an adjacent
trace). When you get the boards, lay them out on a light table and
100% visually inspect each one before assembly. It will only take a
few minutes and you'll save much potential heartache. 

* You might want to request quotes on what the board house suggests
for finish. There are trade-offs between cost, RoHS compliance,
solderability, bare board shelf-life and so on. If the supplier is
local, you can pick up the phone, or just ask for most economical or
something like that. 

** Thickness is fairly important in your application as it has to fit
between the pins on the connector. Use digital calipers, or a
micrometer or something accurate like that.  



Best regards, 
Spehro Pefhany
-- 
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com