Today, I had the misfortune

Haude Daniel wrote:
> In article <Jx87h.3811$yE6.25@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, Joerg wrote:
> 
>> Somehow that does not surprise me with this company. The sad part is 
>> that it was Philips that brought me into electronics. My parents got me 
>> an EE20 experimenters kit for Christmas when I was a kid. While in 
>> Europe their semi part were made and distributed by Valvo in Hamburg. 
>> They became part of Philips and the support was absolutely top notch. 
>> Back then I would not have dreamed that this could deteriorate so far 
>> and so fast.
>>
>> Same with Siemens BTW. After it became Infineon it went downhill IMHO, 
>> and fast.
>>
>> Plenty of examples how to do it right: Analog Devices, National, TI, and 
>> on and on. Hey Europe: Wake up!
> 
> Amen!
> 
>> Yep. But they fail to realize that today's small players are tomorrow's 
>> big guys.
> 
> Yes!
> 
>> The other thing they fail to see is that consultants often 
>> design complete mass products.
> 
> Yes!
> 
> I just got off the phone with a very nice guy at NXP. Actually it was very
> hard to get him /on/ the phone in the first place. All I need are some
> jellybean parts that are sold only by the 3000pc-reel by European
> distributors. So I wanted some samples. As I'm working at the University in
> Hamburg, the first number I tried was the Hamburg sales office. Tried 5
> times and never even got a ringtone. Next was Frankfurt. Got someone on the
> phone, but whenever she tried to get me through to someone we were
> disconnected (I tried this 3 times, each time got a different switchboard
> person who failed in the same manner). OK, Munich. Very friendly people
> told me that the person in charge for people "like me" (academics) was on
> vacation but back next week.
> 
> So I talked to him. He's going to get me samples, no problem. I asked him
> why the standard distributors aren't carrying these parts in small
> quantity, and why getting sample was so hard. Boy did I open up a can of
> worms. Essentially he told me all that you wrote in this post, including
> naming American mfgrs that are doing it the right way. I asked him how NXP
> expected to get designed-in when it was so hard to get your hand on their
> products. He said he didn't know. I asked him to maybe raise the point with
> someone in charge. He said he'd long stopped doing that. I said that the
> people making $$$ purchase decisions were at one point little engineers,
> scientists or hobbyists. He said he knew. Since we had agreed on pretty 
> much everything it seemed we might as well end the conversation, which we 
> did.
> 
>> If they don't support them then their 
>> parts will never make it in. Once a design decision has been made it's 
>> done and done. Next to impossible to get in after the ECO. I've had 
>> sales guys close to bursting into tears after they found that out the 
>> hard way.
> 
> I'd love seeing that happen to someone at NXP or INfineon. 
> 
>> If they can't even figure that out they should at least sell through 
>> Digikey. But for large ranges of EU semiconductors that's not happening. 
>> Hence no design-wins.
> 
> The stuff that I want is actually in stock at DigiKey. Nothing exotic. But
> ordering at DK from a German government office is a big hassle because they
> don't have a German sales office. The easiest method is going through my
> private credit card and getting reimbursed after a lot of red-taping.
> Besides, DK is generally more expensive than European distributors so it
> doesn't make sense to place a large order which, among some DK-only parts,
> contains stuff that could have been purchased locally.
> 
>>>>> I made a final decision today to not bother looking for their parts any
>>>>> more - there's nothing they have I can't get elsewhere,
> 
> Well, I always wanted to try out their BF862 and the PMBFJ620 dual (hoping 
> to replace those expensive TO78 parts). The 620's datasheet is complete 
> crap of course. Just a few "typical values" curves that look like someone 
> had jotted them down in a few seconds using log-log paper and a ruler. And 
> nothing, not even a hint, as to what kind of matching I might expect. But 
> cheap (if you want a 3000 reel).
> 
>> I remember when Jan Timmer slammed the pulpit. He really had a fit about 
>> the financials. I wrote to him with some ideas and so did others but he 
>> didn't listen.
> 
> I can give you the extension of someone in Munich who is good at listening 
> ;-)
> 
> --Daniel


Great Rant. But when you have designed a product and think it's all over 
that's not the end - what about those long lead times; let alone the 
MOQ? It's a nightmare in electronic manufacturing.

Regards

P

Hello Daniel,

> 
>>Somehow that does not surprise me with this company. The sad part is 
>>that it was Philips that brought me into electronics. My parents got me 
>>an EE20 experimenters kit for Christmas when I was a kid. While in 
>>Europe their semi part were made and distributed by Valvo in Hamburg. 
>>They became part of Philips and the support was absolutely top notch. 
>>Back then I would not have dreamed that this could deteriorate so far 
>>and so fast.
>>
>>Same with Siemens BTW. After it became Infineon it went downhill IMHO, 
>>and fast.
>>
>>Plenty of examples how to do it right: Analog Devices, National, TI, and 
>>on and on. Hey Europe: Wake up!
> 
> 
> Amen!
> 

Good to hear that from someone who actually lives and engineers in 
Europe. Many Europeans counter that I am just whining about it but they 
never sat on this side of the pond trying to get an Infineon part (I 
won't try that again for a while...).

> 
>>Yep. But they fail to realize that today's small players are tomorrow's 
>>big guys.
> 
> 
> Yes!
> 
> 
>>The other thing they fail to see is that consultants often 
>>design complete mass products.
> 
> 
> Yes!
> 

I had one rep tell me flat out that they do not send sample to 
consultants, period. Huh? Even if I pay? Nope. Well, in newsgroup speak 
I plonked the part and went to the (American) competitor.


> I just got off the phone with a very nice guy at NXP. Actually it was very
> hard to get him /on/ the phone in the first place. All I need are some
> jellybean parts that are sold only by the 3000pc-reel by European
> distributors. So I wanted some samples. As I'm working at the University in
> Hamburg, the first number I tried was the Hamburg sales office. ...


What they don't realize is that some day you'll be in industry, making 
big $ decisions about which parts will be purchased. Back whan I was in 
academia I must say that Philips (it was still Valvo back then) was one 
of the best in terms of support. They gave me all the data books and 
samples I wanted, and pronto. Once I had a meeting with them, I believe 
at the Burchardstrasse plant in Hamburg. They put me up in a very nice 
Hotel (Reichshof?). I found friendly and competent people in a well run 
plant. The result of all this support was that my design-in rate for 
Philips parts was around 30%. Then the bottom fell out. Now it's, uhm, 
close to zero. So I was not surprised at all when they threw in the 
towel and auctioned off their semi biz.


>                                                           ... Tried 5
> times and never even got a ringtone. Next was Frankfurt. Got someone on the
> phone, but whenever she tried to get me through to someone we were
> disconnected (I tried this 3 times, each time got a different switchboard
> person who failed in the same manner). OK, Munich. Very friendly people
> told me that the person in charge for people "like me" (academics) was on
> vacation but back next week.
> 
> So I talked to him. He's going to get me samples, no problem. I asked him
> why the standard distributors aren't carrying these parts in small
> quantity, and why getting sample was so hard. Boy did I open up a can of
> worms. Essentially he told me all that you wrote in this post, including
> naming American mfgrs that are doing it the right way. ...


This is sad. I strongly feel that nothing short of a major personnel 
change at the executive level can truly help companies like that.


>                                           ... I asked him how NXP
> expected to get designed-in when it was so hard to get your hand on their
> products. He said he didn't know. I asked him to maybe raise the point with
> someone in charge. He said he'd long stopped doing that. I said that the
> people making $$$ purchase decisions were at one point little engineers,
> scientists or hobbyists. He said he knew. Since we had agreed on pretty 
> much everything it seemed we might as well end the conversation, which we 
> did.
> 
> 
>>If they don't support them then their 
>>parts will never make it in. Once a design decision has been made it's 
>>done and done. Next to impossible to get in after the ECO. I've had 
>>sales guys close to bursting into tears after they found that out the 
>>hard way.
> 
> 
> I'd love seeing that happen to someone at NXP or INfineon. 
> 

It's not going to. Unless major shareholders wake up and question 
corporate governance like what currently happens at some US automakers 
(which have similar problems) nothing is going to change IMHO.

> 
>>If they can't even figure that out they should at least sell through 
>>Digikey. But for large ranges of EU semiconductors that's not happening. 
>>Hence no design-wins.
> 
> 
> The stuff that I want is actually in stock at DigiKey. Nothing exotic. But
> ordering at DK from a German government office is a big hassle because they
> don't have a German sales office. The easiest method is going through my
> private credit card and getting reimbursed after a lot of red-taping.
> Besides, DK is generally more expensive than European distributors so it
> doesn't make sense to place a large order which, among some DK-only parts,
> contains stuff that could have been purchased locally.
> 
> 
>>>>>I made a final decision today to not bother looking for their parts any
>>>>>more - there's nothing they have I can't get elsewhere,
> 
> 
> Well, I always wanted to try out their BF862 and the PMBFJ620 dual (hoping 
> to replace those expensive TO78 parts). The 620's datasheet is complete 
> crap of course. Just a few "typical values" curves that look like someone 
> had jotted them down in a few seconds using log-log paper and a ruler. And 
> nothing, not even a hint, as to what kind of matching I might expect. But 
> cheap (if you want a 3000 reel).
> 
> 
>>I remember when Jan Timmer slammed the pulpit. He really had a fit about 
>>the financials. I wrote to him with some ideas and so did others but he 
>>didn't listen.
> 
> 
> I can give you the extension of someone in Munich who is good at listening 
> ;-)
> 

But that would only make sense if this person can move and shake things 
and, most of all, can initiate high-level personnel changes if needed. I 
have stopped writing to corporate management about lacking marketing 
efficiency because they don't listen. For me the solution is to move on 
to their competitors.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

PFJ wrote:


[ ... ]

> 
> Great Rant. But when you have designed a product and think it's all over 
> that's not the end - what about those long lead times; let alone the 
> MOQ? It's a nightmare in electronic manufacturing.
> 

Old rule around here: If it ain't in stock at Digikey plus several reels 
at Arrow, it ain't going to be designed in unless there is a very 
compelling reason why it absolutely has to be this part.

Keep them purchasers happy :-)

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message 
news:KAG8h.17881$yl4.1920@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> PFJ wrote:
>>
>> Great Rant. But when you have designed a product and think it's all over 
>> that's not the end - what about those long lead times; let alone the MOQ? 
>> It's a nightmare in electronic manufacturing.
>
> Old rule around here: If it ain't in stock at Digikey plus several reels 
> at Arrow, it ain't going to be designed in unless there is a very 
> compelling reason why it absolutely has to be this part.
>
> Keep them purchasers happy :-)

Yes, I have a similar rule (involving Farnell and, at a pinch, RS [1]). 
Except when I have to break my rule and buy e.g. H8 processors...

[1] Mini-rant: RS's online catalogue is b0rked. Compared to Farnell's, it's 
hopeless. A while back I had the fun of going through my preferred component 
database to check for, and find alternatives to, non-RoHS parts. With 
Farnell, it was fairly easy. With RS, it was impossible. (Semis: not so bad, 
since one can check the manufacturer's site. With passives, forget it.) Gah!

Steve
http://www.fivetrees.com 

Joerg wrote:

> I wonder if Europe still has those 4.5V batteries. Back in them good old 
> days they were the best deal in terms of Watt-Hours versus Deutschmarks. 
> But they were also notorious for nasty leaks.

Needed a totch last year while traveling, and bought one that takes 
these flat batteries. And batteries to go with it. The cheapest set in 
the shop. The batteries proudly mentioned 'zinc-saline' as their 
composition.

As for the attery with the white cat on it: the brand 'witte kat' went 
to Varta, and not it seems Varta is getting rid of battery production 
altogether. But the battery I bought was of a different brand.


Thomas

Tim Shoppa wrote:
(snip)
> wowee-kablamoo, 6 inches of solder turned into a bright blue spark ...
(snip)
> Tim.


ROTFLMAO!  You reminded me of the surprise that was sprung on me when I brushed
the HV inside an oscilloscope.  That was in 1969.  To this very day I plant my
free hand in a pocket ... or, if I'm really-really intimidated, in the back
waistband of my trousers.

"wowee-kablamoo"   Gotta remember that.  <G>

Michael wrote:
> Tim Shoppa wrote:
> (snip)
>> wowee-kablamoo, 6 inches of solder turned into a bright blue spark ...
>> (snip) Tim.
> 
> 
> ROTFLMAO!  You reminded me of the surprise that was sprung on me when I
> brushed the HV inside an oscilloscope.  That was in 1969.  To this very
> day I plant my free hand in a pocket ... or, if I'm really-really
> intimidated, in the back waistband of my trousers.
> 
> "wowee-kablamoo"   Gotta remember that.  <G>

I was leaning over the front of a 14" monitor to reach the mains 
socket on the lower back panel. When I plugged in the mains,
a spark from the front of the screen shot out hit me in the gonads!

When the owner came to pick up his machinery after an upgrade,
I complained to him that he should have switched off before
bringing it over whereupon he commented that my efforts were
rewarded by a curious checksum fault that had magically got fixed.

He would normally leave all the kit switched on and kill the mains
to his workstation by flicking a master switch. Flicking this on
next time with all kit taking a power surge, the computer threw a
fault during the POST showing there was a checksum error !

Without the monitor taking start-up power at the same instant,
the computer was able to complete its POST without error.


-- 
Graham W   http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial
WIMBORNE   http://www.wessex-astro.org.uk/ Wessex Astro Society's Website
Dorset UK  Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps
Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter.

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:03:14 +0000, Michael wrote:
> Tim Shoppa wrote:
> (snip)
>> wowee-kablamoo, 6 inches of solder turned into a bright blue spark ...
> (snip)
> 
> ROTFLMAO!  You reminded me of the surprise that was sprung on me when I brushed
> the HV inside an oscilloscope.  That was in 1969.  To this very day I plant my
> free hand in a pocket ... or, if I'm really-really intimidated, in the back
> waistband of my trousers.
> 
> "wowee-kablamoo"   Gotta remember that.  <G>

When I was in 12th grade Physics class, there was a back room, with all
kinds of neat stuff, including a 545-type scope, and an old, but
operational, TV set, without the case.

So, I thought I'd look at the waveform at the plate cap of the Horizontal
Output tube, and drew an arc to the scope probe about 1-1/2" long.

Of course, being toob-type, all of the equipment survived. :-)

Cheers!
Rich

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 01:23:27 +0000, Rich Grise wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:03:14 +0000, Michael wrote:
>> Tim Shoppa wrote:
>> (snip)
>>> wowee-kablamoo, 6 inches of solder turned into a bright blue spark ...
>> (snip)
>> 
>> ROTFLMAO!  You reminded me of the surprise that was sprung on me when I brushed
>> the HV inside an oscilloscope.  That was in 1969.  To this very day I plant my
>> free hand in a pocket ... or, if I'm really-really intimidated, in the back
>> waistband of my trousers.
>> 
>> "wowee-kablamoo"   Gotta remember that.  <G>
> 
> When I was in 12th grade Physics class, there was a back room, with all
> kinds of neat stuff, including a 545-type scope, and an old, but
> operational, TV set, without the case.
> 
> So, I thought I'd look at the waveform at the plate cap of the Horizontal
> Output tube, and drew an arc to the scope probe about 1-1/2" long.
> 
> Of course, being toob-type, all of the equipment survived. :-)

All together now:
And, of course, being boob-type, Rich survived. ;-D

Cheers!
Rich