Today, I had the misfortune

"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:455FA00E.56C33F4@hotmail.com...
>
> Joerg wrote:
>
>> The sad part is
>> that it was Philips that brought me into electronics. My parents got me
>> an EE20 experimenters kit for Christmas when I was a kid.
>
> The one with a kind of tag board with sping loaded clips and 3 germanium
> transistors ?
>
> I had one of those for Xmas once too.

Heh - me too. In my case it was a EE1050 (IIRC) base kit, then a pair of 
add-on kits (EE1051/2? can't remember). This was around '67-'69. The 
transistors were silicon, though (BC148 etc, IIRC). One or two of them had a 
very cool heatsink - the transistors were mounted on square bases with four 
holes, and the heatsink was a piece of folded aluminium that looked (to my 
young mind) like some kind of space radar...

I had huge fun with those kits. And, like Joerg, it's the reason I have this 
career, for better or worse ;).

Just googled: found a bunch of links, including:
  http://ee.old.no/1000/
  http://www.hansotten.com/philipsee1050.html

Steve
http://www.fivetrees.com 

Hello Steve,

>>
>>>The sad part is
>>>that it was Philips that brought me into electronics. My parents got me
>>>an EE20 experimenters kit for Christmas when I was a kid.
>>
>>The one with a kind of tag board with sping loaded clips and 3 germanium
>>transistors ?
>>
>>I had one of those for Xmas once too.
> 
> 
> Heh - me too. In my case it was a EE1050 (IIRC) base kit, then a pair of 
> add-on kits (EE1051/2? can't remember). This was around '67-'69. The 
> transistors were silicon, though (BC148 etc, IIRC). One or two of them had a 
> very cool heatsink - the transistors were mounted on square bases with four 
> holes, and the heatsink was a piece of folded aluminium that looked (to my 
> young mind) like some kind of space radar...
> 

Then you must be younger than I am. Mine contained two AC127 and there 
was one steel heat sink in the kit that could be slipped onto one of 
them by bending it open a bit. It snugged back on like a spring and 
looked like it gave the AC127 wings. Like with aircraft you could select 
"high wing" or "low wing". I preferred low wing.

There was an AF126 with very fragile wires. Had to be treated like a 
jewel because it cost >$3 at the TV repair places. This was my opening 
crescendo into the world of RF. You could (almost) get it into the VHF 
range. But then I discovered that tubes from the UHF tuners of discarded 
TV sets were the bettter deal, a.k.a. free. Of course, these needed a 
very different voltage level on the plates...


> I had huge fun with those kits. And, like Joerg, it's the reason I have this 
> career, for better or worse ;).
> 
> Just googled: found a bunch of links, including:
>   http://ee.old.no/1000/
>   http://www.hansotten.com/philipsee1050.html
> 

This was the one I had:
http://ee.old.no/20/

At the top of the picture below you can see what the springboard of my 
EE20 looked like. Each experiment had a template that went under the 
springs so you could see where which part was to go:
http://www.hansotten.com/philipsee8.html

I wonder if Europe still has those 4.5V batteries. Back in them good old 
days they were the best deal in terms of Watt-Hours versus Deutschmarks. 
But they were also notorious for nasty leaks.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message 
news:P008h.8355$Sw1.739@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> Hello Steve,
>
>> Heh - me too. In my case it was a EE1050 (IIRC) base kit, then a pair of 
>> add-on kits (EE1051/2? can't remember). This was around '67-'69. The 
>> transistors were silicon, though (BC148 etc, IIRC). One or two of them 
>> had a very cool heatsink - the transistors were mounted on square bases 
>> with four holes, and the heatsink was a piece of folded aluminium that 
>> looked (to my young mind) like some kind of space radar...
>
> Then you must be younger than I am.

Wahay! Finally! ;)

> Mine contained two AC127 and there was one steel heat sink in the kit that 
> could be slipped onto one of them by bending it open a bit. It snugged 
> back on like a spring and looked like it gave the AC127 wings. Like with 
> aircraft you could select "high wing" or "low wing". I preferred low wing.
>
> There was an AF126 with very fragile wires. Had to be treated like a jewel 
> because it cost >$3 at the TV repair places. This was my opening crescendo 
> into the world of RF. You could (almost) get it into the VHF range. But 
> then I discovered that tubes from the UHF tuners of discarded TV sets were 
> the bettter deal, a.k.a. free. Of course, these needed a very different 
> voltage level on the plates...

With the EE-1050 etc, the transistors were premounted - the BC148 etc had 
very short pins...

>> I had huge fun with those kits. And, like Joerg, it's the reason I have 
>> this career, for better or worse ;).
>>
>> Just googled: found a bunch of links, including:
>>   http://ee.old.no/1000/
>>   http://www.hansotten.com/philipsee1050.html
>
> This was the one I had:
> http://ee.old.no/20/
>
> At the top of the picture below you can see what the springboard of my 
> EE20 looked like. Each experiment had a template that went under the 
> springs so you could see where which part was to go:
> http://www.hansotten.com/philipsee8.html

Yes, I see your transistors. The template idea was carried through to the 
later kits.

> I wonder if Europe still has those 4.5V batteries. Back in them good old 
> days they were the best deal in terms of Watt-Hours versus Deutschmarks. 
> But they were also notorious for nasty leaks.

Heh - they were (are?) excellent for lighting up bulbs with no wiring - one 
could just wedge a bulb between the two prongs...

Steve
http://www.fivetrees.com 

Steve at fivetrees wrote:
> "Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:P008h.8355$Sw1.739@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>> Hello Steve,
>>
>>> Heh - me too. In my case it was a EE1050 (IIRC) base kit, then a pair
>>> of add-on kits (EE1051/2? can't remember). This was around '67-'69.
>>> The transistors were silicon, though (BC148 etc, IIRC). One or two of
>>> them had a very cool heatsink - the transistors were mounted on
>>> square bases with four holes, and the heatsink was a piece of folded
>>> aluminium that looked (to my young mind) like some kind of space
>>> radar...
>>
>> Then you must be younger than I am.
>
> Wahay! Finally! ;)
>
>> Mine contained two AC127 and there was one steel heat sink in the kit
>> that could be slipped onto one of them by bending it open a bit. It
>> snugged back on like a spring and looked like it gave the AC127 wings.
>> Like with aircraft you could select "high wing" or "low wing". I
>> preferred low wing.
>>
>> There was an AF126 with very fragile wires. Had to be treated like a
>> jewel because it cost >$3 at the TV repair places. This was my opening
>> crescendo into the world of RF. You could (almost) get it into the VHF
>> range. But then I discovered that tubes from the UHF tuners of
>> discarded TV sets were the bettter deal, a.k.a. free. Of course, these
>> needed a very different voltage level on the plates...
>
> With the EE-1050 etc, the transistors were premounted - the BC148 etc
> had very short pins...
>
>>> I had huge fun with those kits. And, like Joerg, it's the reason I
>>> have this career, for better or worse ;).
>>>
>>> Just googled: found a bunch of links, including:
>>>   http://ee.old.no/1000/
>>>   http://www.hansotten.com/philipsee1050.html
>>
>> This was the one I had:
>> http://ee.old.no/20/
>>
>> At the top of the picture below you can see what the springboard of my
>> EE20 looked like. Each experiment had a template that went under the
>> springs so you could see where which part was to go:
>> http://www.hansotten.com/philipsee8.html
>
> Yes, I see your transistors. The template idea was carried through to
> the later kits.
>
>> I wonder if Europe still has those 4.5V batteries. Back in them good
>> old days they were the best deal in terms of Watt-Hours versus
>> Deutschmarks. But they were also notorious for nasty leaks.
>
> Heh - they were (are?) excellent for lighting up bulbs with no wiring -
> one could just wedge a bulb between the two prongs...
>
> Steve
> http://www.fivetrees.com

In the UK they were known as 'flat' batteries - not because they held
little
energy but because they were physically flat and suitable for slim
torches.

Steve was right about the spring contacts though, many a battery was
sacrificed because little care was taken in keeping them separate
and after a few minutes of touching they really were flat! I think their
part# was 1216 or maybe 1219.


--
Graham W   http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial
WIMBORNE   http://www.wessex-astro.org.uk/ Wessex Astro Society's Website
Dorset UK  Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps
Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter.

Hello Graham, Hello Steve,


[ Philips experimenter's kits ]

>>
>>>Mine contained two AC127 and there was one steel heat sink in the kit
>>>that could be slipped onto one of them by bending it open a bit. It
>>>snugged back on like a spring and looked like it gave the AC127 wings.
>>>Like with aircraft you could select "high wing" or "low wing". I
>>>preferred low wing.
>>>
>>>There was an AF126 with very fragile wires. Had to be treated like a
>>>jewel because it cost >$3 at the TV repair places. This was my opening
>>>crescendo into the world of RF. You could (almost) get it into the VHF
>>>range. But then I discovered that tubes from the UHF tuners of
>>>discarded TV sets were the bettter deal, a.k.a. free. Of course, these
>>>needed a very different voltage level on the plates...
>>
>>With the EE-1050 etc, the transistors were premounted - the BC148 etc
>>had very short pins...
>>

That's what the "fancy" kits had in my days, made by Kosmos. I never 
warmed up to that idea because I wanted to work with "real" parts. 
Shortly thereafter, I believe at the crisp age of about 10, I scraped 
all my allowance money and bought a solder iron and some solder. In 
hindsight a rather dangerous thing, no grounded plug and all. The solder 
was more for plumbing work but what did I know? I guess my parents where 
unaware of this exercise and how dangerous it could be but in the end it 
helped me in learing how to solder. Don't blame my parents, I hadn't 
told them about the solder iron purchase.

>>
>>>>I had huge fun with those kits. And, like Joerg, it's the reason I
>>>>have this career, for better or worse ;).
>>>>
>>>>Just googled: found a bunch of links, including:
>>>>  http://ee.old.no/1000/
>>>>  http://www.hansotten.com/philipsee1050.html
>>>
>>>This was the one I had:
>>>http://ee.old.no/20/
>>>
>>>At the top of the picture below you can see what the springboard of my
>>>EE20 looked like. Each experiment had a template that went under the
>>>springs so you could see where which part was to go:
>>>http://www.hansotten.com/philipsee8.html
>>
>>Yes, I see your transistors. The template idea was carried through to
>>the later kits.
>>
>>
>>>I wonder if Europe still has those 4.5V batteries. Back in them good
>>>old days they were the best deal in terms of Watt-Hours versus
>>>Deutschmarks. But they were also notorious for nasty leaks.
>>
>>Heh - they were (are?) excellent for lighting up bulbs with no wiring -
>>one could just wedge a bulb between the two prongs...
>>
>>Steve
>>http://www.fivetrees.com
> 
> 
> In the UK they were known as 'flat' batteries - not because they held
> little
> energy but because they were physically flat and suitable for slim
> torches.
> 
> Steve was right about the spring contacts though, many a battery was
> sacrificed because little care was taken in keeping them separate
> and after a few minutes of touching they really were flat! I think their
> part# was 1216 or maybe 1219.
> 

The really nasty surprise came when you did that but didn't discover it 
until weeks or months later. By then many of these had oozed all over 
the place.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Joerg wrote:

> Hello Steve,
> >>
> >>>The sad part is
> >>>that it was Philips that brought me into electronics. My parents got me
> >>>an EE20 experimenters kit for Christmas when I was a kid.
> >>
> >>The one with a kind of tag board with sping loaded clips and 3 germanium
> >>transistors ?
> >>
> >>I had one of those for Xmas once too.
> >
> >
> > Heh - me too. In my case it was a EE1050 (IIRC) base kit, then a pair of
> > add-on kits (EE1051/2? can't remember). This was around '67-'69. The
> > transistors were silicon, though (BC148 etc, IIRC). One or two of them had a
> > very cool heatsink - the transistors were mounted on square bases with four
> > holes, and the heatsink was a piece of folded aluminium that looked (to my
> > young mind) like some kind of space radar...
>
>
> Then you must be younger than I am. Mine contained two AC127 and there
> was one steel heat sink in the kit that could be slipped onto one of
> them by bending it open a bit. It snugged back on like a spring and
> looked like it gave the AC127 wings. Like with aircraft you could select
> "high wing" or "low wing". I preferred low wing.
>
> There was an AF126 with very fragile wires. Had to be treated like a
> jewel because it cost >$3 at the TV repair places. This was my opening
> crescendo into the world of RF. You could (almost) get it into the VHF
> range. But then I discovered that tubes from the UHF tuners of discarded
> TV sets were the bettter deal, a.k.a. free. Of course, these needed a
> very different voltage level on the plates...
>
> > I had huge fun with those kits. And, like Joerg, it's the reason I have this
> > career, for better or worse ;).
> >
> > Just googled: found a bunch of links, including:
> >   http://ee.old.no/1000/
> >   http://www.hansotten.com/philipsee1050.html
> >
>
> This was the one I had:
> http://ee.old.no/20/

That's the one !


> At the top of the picture below you can see what the springboard of my
> EE20 looked like. Each experiment had a template that went under the
> springs so you could see where which part was to go:
> http://www.hansotten.com/philipsee8.html
>
> I wonder if Europe still has those 4.5V batteries. Back in them good old
> days they were the best deal in terms of Watt-Hours versus Deutschmarks.
> But they were also notorious for nasty leaks.

I can't even remember using that battery now.

If you'd asked I'd have said it used a 6V 'lantern' battery.

Graham

"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:4561082A.F18607C6@hotmail.com...
> Joerg wrote:
>
>> I wonder if Europe still has those 4.5V batteries. Back in them good old
>> days they were the best deal in terms of Watt-Hours versus Deutschmarks.
>> But they were also notorious for nasty leaks.
>
> I can't even remember using that battery now.
>
> If you'd asked I'd have said it used a 6V 'lantern' battery.

The EE1050 etc used a battery holder containing regular 1.5V batteries (AA 
types, I think). Six of them, so 9V total.

Steve
http://www.fivetrees.com 

Joerg wrote:
> Shortly thereafter, I believe at the crisp age of about 10, I scraped
> all my allowance money and bought a solder iron and some solder. In
> hindsight a rather dangerous thing, no grounded plug and all.

I had the opposite experience. I grew up with ungrounded soldering
irons, with tips that were isolated from both hot and neutral (they had
to be, with no polarizing plug, I guess). Thus I had the expectation
that I could solder live AC and DC wiring inside my radios with no
problems at all (as long as I was holding the solder by the plastic
reel. That ought to place the time pretty well: before grounded plugs,
but shortly after solder stopped coming on metal reels.)

THEN I bought my first Weller with a grounded tip and made a circuit
between AC hot and the soldering iron tip via about 6" of solder, and
wowee-kablamoo, 6 inches of solder turned into a bright blue spark and
disappeared into vapor that I probably inhaled when I decided to start
breathing again (maybe a minute later). There went that bad habit!

Tim.

Hello Steve,

>>
>>>I wonder if Europe still has those 4.5V batteries. Back in them good old
>>>days they were the best deal in terms of Watt-Hours versus Deutschmarks.
>>>But they were also notorious for nasty leaks.
>>
>>I can't even remember using that battery now.
>>
>>If you'd asked I'd have said it used a 6V 'lantern' battery.
> 

IIRC the EE20 instructions or a note inside the German version stated 
another battery that could be used. A lantern battery but those were so 
outrageously expensive that nobody used them even in lanterns.

> 
> The EE1050 etc used a battery holder containing regular 1.5V batteries (AA 
> types, I think). Six of them, so 9V total.
> 

That decidedly puts your Philips kit into the "new age" category :-)

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

In article <Jx87h.3811$yE6.25@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, Joerg wrote:

> Somehow that does not surprise me with this company. The sad part is 
> that it was Philips that brought me into electronics. My parents got me 
> an EE20 experimenters kit for Christmas when I was a kid. While in 
> Europe their semi part were made and distributed by Valvo in Hamburg. 
> They became part of Philips and the support was absolutely top notch. 
> Back then I would not have dreamed that this could deteriorate so far 
> and so fast.
> 
> Same with Siemens BTW. After it became Infineon it went downhill IMHO, 
> and fast.
> 
> Plenty of examples how to do it right: Analog Devices, National, TI, and 
> on and on. Hey Europe: Wake up!

Amen!

> Yep. But they fail to realize that today's small players are tomorrow's 
> big guys.

Yes!

> The other thing they fail to see is that consultants often 
> design complete mass products.

Yes!

I just got off the phone with a very nice guy at NXP. Actually it was very
hard to get him /on/ the phone in the first place. All I need are some
jellybean parts that are sold only by the 3000pc-reel by European
distributors. So I wanted some samples. As I'm working at the University in
Hamburg, the first number I tried was the Hamburg sales office. Tried 5
times and never even got a ringtone. Next was Frankfurt. Got someone on the
phone, but whenever she tried to get me through to someone we were
disconnected (I tried this 3 times, each time got a different switchboard
person who failed in the same manner). OK, Munich. Very friendly people
told me that the person in charge for people "like me" (academics) was on
vacation but back next week.

So I talked to him. He's going to get me samples, no problem. I asked him
why the standard distributors aren't carrying these parts in small
quantity, and why getting sample was so hard. Boy did I open up a can of
worms. Essentially he told me all that you wrote in this post, including
naming American mfgrs that are doing it the right way. I asked him how NXP
expected to get designed-in when it was so hard to get your hand on their
products. He said he didn't know. I asked him to maybe raise the point with
someone in charge. He said he'd long stopped doing that. I said that the
people making $$$ purchase decisions were at one point little engineers,
scientists or hobbyists. He said he knew. Since we had agreed on pretty 
much everything it seemed we might as well end the conversation, which we 
did.

> If they don't support them then their 
> parts will never make it in. Once a design decision has been made it's 
> done and done. Next to impossible to get in after the ECO. I've had 
> sales guys close to bursting into tears after they found that out the 
> hard way.

I'd love seeing that happen to someone at NXP or INfineon. 

> If they can't even figure that out they should at least sell through 
> Digikey. But for large ranges of EU semiconductors that's not happening. 
> Hence no design-wins.

The stuff that I want is actually in stock at DigiKey. Nothing exotic. But
ordering at DK from a German government office is a big hassle because they
don't have a German sales office. The easiest method is going through my
private credit card and getting reimbursed after a lot of red-taping.
Besides, DK is generally more expensive than European distributors so it
doesn't make sense to place a large order which, among some DK-only parts,
contains stuff that could have been purchased locally.

> >>>I made a final decision today to not bother looking for their parts any
> >>>more - there's nothing they have I can't get elsewhere,

Well, I always wanted to try out their BF862 and the PMBFJ620 dual (hoping 
to replace those expensive TO78 parts). The 620's datasheet is complete 
crap of course. Just a few "typical values" curves that look like someone 
had jotted them down in a few seconds using log-log paper and a ruler. And 
nothing, not even a hint, as to what kind of matching I might expect. But 
cheap (if you want a 3000 reel).

> I remember when Jan Timmer slammed the pulpit. He really had a fit about 
> the financials. I wrote to him with some ideas and so did others but he 
> didn't listen.

I can give you the extension of someone in Munich who is good at listening 
;-)

--Daniel