Floppy emulator with flash media

On Sep 4, 3:17 pm, tns1 <t...@cox.net> wrote:
> > A while back I created a gizmo that connected an IDE drive to a ST-412
> > controller, so it can be done, and reliably.
>
> As I understand it this is was an IDE controller, not a FDC controller.
> I can go out and buy an IDE to CF or SD adaptor, but I don't see any FDC
> to X adaptors. I have seen a few hobbyist attempts to do this but
> nothing commercial.  The more I read the more I see there were quite a
> few different densities and disk formats, probably more so with the
> equipment I am talking about.
>

Not really.  This gizmo emulated an MFM hard disk drive.  The IDE
drive was just to record the data.

The data format of a floppy is not that different from the data format
of an ST-412 drive.  MFM is MFM.

G.,

On Sep 5, 11:08 am, "Steve at fivetrees"

> ... Which is just as well, since none of the floppies appear to now be
> readable. Tried a random handful with a new drive; no go - "disk not

On the other hand, I am resurrecting a bunch of TRS-80 Model II
systems (and some other even older stuff), and almost all of the 8"
floppies I have for this system are reading just fine, including
backup disks dated as far back as 1977 (those disks weren't written on
the Model II, they were written on an IBM data entry machine,
basically a keyboard and 8" floppy drive built into a large desk).

The big danger to these media is from not being stored in temperature/
humidity-controlled environments: the biscuit develops some kind of
fungal growth that displaces the magnetic coating.

> ... Which is just as well, since none of the floppies appear to now be
> readable. Tried a random handful with a new drive; no go - "disk not
> formatted". ...

Had a related experience recently. Before I retired an old system
with floppies I used it to copy all floppies with data I needed via
RS-232 to a DPS system as FD image files, where the old system is
emulated anyway.

 It turned out that I could read floppies as old as 1988; no lost
data at all. I think some of the DD floppies I had been rude enough
to write as HD ones had forgotten this or that, though, but I seem
to have had enough copies of all so I got my data.

 However, when I tried - don't remember why now - to write to
floppies which were 10 years old or so, it did not work!
The floppies had been readable before trying, the drives
were in perfect order, checked with newer disks, just the old
floppies were non-writable, non-formattable (well some tracks
did format but overall they were no good).

Dimiter

------------------------------------------------------
Dimiter Popoff               Transgalactic Instruments

http://www.tgi-sci.com
------------------------------------------------------

On Sep 5, 6:08 pm, "Steve at fivetrees" <st...@NOSPAMTAfivetrees.com>
wrote:
> "tns1" <t...@cox.net> wrote in message
>
> news:4QkDi.30881$L_7.3954@newsfe16.phx...
>
>
>
> >> 3.5" floppies are still available, and should be for a while.  It's
> >> fairly easy to strap one up to "just about any" FDD controller.
>
> > Yes, but floppies are so yesterday...and seem less reliable than I
> > remember.
>
> OT, but salutory perhaps: I'm moving house on Saturday, and am having to
> be fairly ruthless about what I take (moving from large house in the
> sticks to small house in prime housing market). Starting from when I
> went solo in the mid 80s, I built up a considerable archive of
> floppies - several thousand in all, with each project I worked on saved
> onto at least two floppies, and of course all the installation floppies
> from previous eras (Windows 3.1, 95 etc etc). Since then hard disk
> capacities have ballooned, and at some point I copied all the project
> data onto my server here and onto CDs...
>
> ... Which is just as well, since none of the floppies appear to now be
> readable. Tried a random handful with a new drive; no go - "disk not
> formatted". Thus, *all* my floppies are being binned. I also had several
> hundred 5.25" disks, including some new ones still in unopened boxes...
> and a drive. All heading for the bin. Same goes for the short-lived and
> troublesome Colorado Jumbo tape drives and a dozen or so backup tapes.
> Seems a shame, but hey. Same goes for a filing cabinet full of data
> sheets and a large pile of databooks, all now obsolete due to the
> interweb...
>
> The company I work for now has *one* filing cabinet in the building (for
> invoices). I had about four cabinets' worth of paper. I conclude that
> I'm a dinosaur and have been doing this job too long.
>
> Steve
> (who is just about to try reading some of his CDR archive, and is
> expecting them to be mostly junk too...)
> (PS: if anyone has a use for several thousand used floppies, in 3.5" and
> 5.25" formats, and a 5.25" drive, and can collect from Selsey in Sussex,
> contact me ASAP. I shall not be holding my breath.)http://www.fivetrees.com

Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
> "tns1" <tns1@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:8CdDi.156780$zz2.152590@newsfe12.phx...
> 
>>Are there any commercial adaptors that would replace a floppy drive with
>>some type of flash storage (sd, mmc, thumb drive)? To the host, this
>>would have to look just like the floppy drive it replaced, but use
>>different media.
>>The reason I ask is there are many old but useful embedded systems which
>>have only the floppy for storage but no other interfaces (no IDE or USB).
> 
> 
> The easiest way to accomplish that is by the software. All you have to do is
> to capture all requests to the floppy driver and redirect them to whatever
> image of the floppy disk. This operation is fairly trivial for the PC
> platform; you can even boot up from the virtual drive. Look at NE2000
> bootROM procedure for the reference.
> 
> Vladimir Vassilevsky
> DSP and Mixed Signal Consultant
> www.abvolt.com
> 
These embedded devices are not PCs, there is no source code to be had. 
Considering the vintage, its probably all custom firmware burned into 
just-large-enough proms with no OS, no BIOS. After reverse engineering 
the code and HW design you would likely find there was no way to do what 
you suggest without a HW redesign.

ghelbig@lycos.com wrote:

> On Sep 4, 3:17 pm, tns1 <t...@cox.net> wrote:
> 
>>>A while back I created a gizmo that connected an IDE drive to a ST-412
>>>controller, so it can be done, and reliably.
>>
>>As I understand it this is was an IDE controller, not a FDC controller.
>>I can go out and buy an IDE to CF or SD adaptor, but I don't see any FDC
>>to X adaptors. I have seen a few hobbyist attempts to do this but
>>nothing commercial.  The more I read the more I see there were quite a
>>few different densities and disk formats, probably more so with the
>>equipment I am talking about.
>>
> 
> 
> Not really.  This gizmo emulated an MFM hard disk drive.  The IDE
> drive was just to record the data.
> 
> The data format of a floppy is not that different from the data format
> of an ST-412 drive.  MFM is MFM.
> 
> G.,
> 
I thought one difference between the FDC and IDE interface (right at the 
connector), was that the FDC does talk at that lowest level so that MFM, 
FM, GCR whatever is present right on the ribbon cable, but for IDE this 
lower layer is done by chips on the drive itself. At least that is what 
I thought a modern IDE drive did. I now see that the ST-412 was one of 
the very first. Was it considered IDE back then?

"larwe" <zwsdotcom@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1189009006.102609.20290@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 5, 11:08 am, "Steve at fivetrees"
>
>> ... Which is just as well, since none of the floppies appear to now 
>> be
>> readable. Tried a random handful with a new drive; no go - "disk not
>
> On the other hand, I am resurrecting a bunch of TRS-80 Model II
> systems (and some other even older stuff), and almost all of the 8"
> floppies I have for this system are reading just fine, including
> backup disks dated as far back as 1977 (those disks weren't written on
> the Model II, they were written on an IBM data entry machine,
> basically a keyboard and 8" floppy drive built into a large desk).

Hah! The TRS-80s I remember were the cheapskate versions with the 
cassette (Kansas?) interface.

During my clearout, I also found a few 8" floppies. 160k, IIRC, which 
seemed massive at the time. These were from a Motorola 6800 development 
system, back when CPU development platforms were bespoke and cost 
several arms and legs... so I felt fairly comfortable about junking 
those ;).

(If you'd like the disks, email me and I'll retrieve them and send them 
to you. I don't suppose they're available in the shops these days ;).)

> The big danger to these media is from not being stored in temperature/
> humidity-controlled environments: the biscuit develops some kind of
> fungal growth that displaces the magnetic coating.

Ah. Didn't know that. These have most definitely *not* been stored thus. 
Ah well. Needed an excuse to dump 'em anyway.

Talking of antique computers, does anybody have a home for:
   a) Jupiter Ace (Forth machine based on Z80)
   b) Sharp PC-1350 (handheld with BASIC and full QWERTY keyboard) with 
16k (whoa!) RAM cards
   c) Dragon 32 (6809 home 'puter), non-functional but (I'm told) easily 
fixed
   d) Psion Series 3 with spreadsheet card etc

Let me know. Seems a shame to bin 'em.

Actually, anyone have any use for reel-to-reel audio tape decks (TEAC) 
(4-track 3340 with 4-track DBX, and 2-track ???? 1/4")? I won't bin 
these. Sex on legs.

Or how about an HP 7550 A3 pen plotter with shedloads of spare pens? 
Built like a tank. Takes about the same space. Noisy. But also sexy ;).

Shit, I really *am* a dinosaur.

Steve
http://www.fivetrees.com 

Steve,

On Sep 5, 7:46 pm, "Steve at fivetrees" <st...@NOSPAMTAfivetrees.com>
wrote:

>    a) Jupiter Ace (Forth machine based on Z80)
>    b) Sharp PC-1350 (handheld with BASIC and full QWERTY keyboard) with
> 16k (whoa!) RAM cards
>    c) Dragon 32 (6809 home 'puter), non-functional but (I'm told) easily
> fixed

I'd kill for these three items, especially the Jupiter Ace; who do you
need rubbed out?

Steve at fivetrees wrote:

> Talking of antique computers, does anybody have a home for:
>    a) Jupiter Ace (Forth machine based on Z80)
>    b) Sharp PC-1350 (handheld with BASIC and full QWERTY keyboard) with 
> 16k (whoa!) RAM cards
>    c) Dragon 32 (6809 home 'puter), non-functional but (I'm told) easily 
> fixed
>    d) Psion Series 3 with spreadsheet card etc
> 
> Let me know. Seems a shame to bin 'em.

Don't bin them.  I have a KIM-1, a PC-jr,
a Radio Shack CoCo, a DEC PDP 8/l and 11/70,
3 LSI 11's, a VAX CPU board, a Northstar
Horizon, a Sharp PC-1350 and a Curta
mechanical calculator.

Believe it or not, I gave away an Apple
Lisa about 10 years ago...


> Actually, anyone have any use for reel-to-reel audio tape decks (TEAC) 
> (4-track 3340 with 4-track DBX, and 2-track ???? 1/4")? I won't bin 
> these. Sex on legs.

I've a 3340 up in the garage rafters along with
a TEAC 6-in, 4-out mixing board.  The board has
come in handy a couple times a year for various
projects.  The 3340, not.  They are still getting
a pretty good price on ebay...

> Or how about an HP 7550 A3 pen plotter with shedloads of spare pens? 
> Built like a tank. Takes about the same space. Noisy. But also sexy ;).

Only if you take my Houston Instruments C-size
plotter.  Comes with my own special custom adapter
so you can use a Pilot rolling pen in place of
the accursed technical pens.

> Shit, I really *am* a dinosaur.

Many of us are. Which reminds me, how about the
Roland Poly88 Synth and the Hallicrafters Skybuddy
that's next to the TEAC?  Want them?

You don't even want to get me started on my
'80s pro video equipment collection.

> Steve
> http://www.fivetrees.com 
> 
> 

Didi wrote:

> To manage the
> 1 MbpS NRZ data would take more than a tiny micro, and more
> than messing around with just a few lines of a HLL, hence no
> product on the market - 

You perhaps forget that with an emulation, you wouldn't _need_ clock
recovery etc - the data would be a 'nice' synchronous data stream.

Regards,

-- 
Mark McDougall, Engineer
Virtual Logic Pty Ltd, <http://www.vl.com.au>
21-25 King St, Rockdale, 2216
Ph: +612-9599-3255 Fax: +612-9599-3266

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 17:37:36 -0700, Jim Stewart <jstewart@jkmicro.com>
wrote:

>Steve at fivetrees wrote:
>
>> Talking of antique computers, does anybody have a home for:
>>    a) Jupiter Ace (Forth machine based on Z80)
>>    b) Sharp PC-1350 (handheld with BASIC and full QWERTY keyboard) with 
>> 16k (whoa!) RAM cards
>>    c) Dragon 32 (6809 home 'puter), non-functional but (I'm told) easily 
>> fixed
>>    d) Psion Series 3 with spreadsheet card etc
>> 
>> Let me know. Seems a shame to bin 'em.

I've a couple of C64s, a chicklet keyboardy ZX-81 I built, and I gave
away the Altair 8800 I'd built.  Boxes of stuff laying about might
surprise my further recollection, if I went through them again.

>Don't bin them.  I have a KIM-1, a PC-jr,
>a Radio Shack CoCo, a DEC PDP 8/l and 11/70,
>3 LSI 11's, a VAX CPU board, a Northstar
>Horizon, a Sharp PC-1350 and a Curta
>mechanical calculator.

I remember using mechanical calculators with the hand-crank and the
top that moves over and over and over during a multiplication.  Never
owned one, myself.  If you ever get a mind to look for a home for that
11/70, though.... look me up.  I enjoyed those and would get some use
out of it, teaching others.

Okay.  I admit it.  I had a lot of fun on the PDP-8/e I'd used earlier
and the RK05s and DECtape drives.  Reminds me, just found a cache of
DECtapes.  I wonder what remains on those?  And some old paper tapes
-- mylar, some of them.  One of these days....

>Believe it or not, I gave away an Apple
>Lisa about 10 years ago...

Cripes.  I remember those.  Never owned one but _before_ it first came
out and was announced to the public, the Apple office here in the area
had them and called me in to look.  I believe I was told the price
would start around $10k or more and that was _way_ outside of my
ability.  (Born poor, you know, and had other priorities for what
little I had left of my hard earned cash.)

>> Actually, anyone have any use for reel-to-reel audio tape decks (TEAC) 
>> (4-track 3340 with 4-track DBX, and 2-track ???? 1/4")? I won't bin 
>> these. Sex on legs.
>
>I've a 3340 up in the garage rafters along with
>a TEAC 6-in, 4-out mixing board.  The board has
>come in handy a couple times a year for various
>projects.  The 3340, not.  They are still getting
>a pretty good price on ebay...

Somewhere around here I may still have my Persei drives.  Voice coil
floopy drives, instead of steppers.  Can't say they were as reliable
as the significantly slower Shugarts, though.

>> Or how about an HP 7550 A3 pen plotter with shedloads of spare pens? 
>> Built like a tank. Takes about the same space. Noisy. But also sexy ;).
>
>Only if you take my Houston Instruments C-size
>plotter.  Comes with my own special custom adapter
>so you can use a Pilot rolling pen in place of
>the accursed technical pens.

Egads.  Now if that were an E size....

>> Shit, I really *am* a dinosaur.
>
>Many of us are. Which reminds me, how about the
>Roland Poly88 Synth and the Hallicrafters Skybuddy
>that's next to the TEAC?  Want them?
>
>You don't even want to get me started on my
>'80s pro video equipment collection.

hehe.

Jon