Cheapest object sensor on the market!

On Apr 6, 4:52 pm, "raedarrar" <i...@0-800.tv> wrote:
> >linnix wrote:
> >> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, "raedarrar" <i...@0-800.tv> wrote:
> >>>> On Apr 6, 2:59 pm, larwe <zwsdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Apr 6, 5:38 pm, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
> >>>>>>> MSP430F20xx, which is very cheap in large quantity - well under
> >>> your
> >>>>>>> price target.
> >>>>>> Probably not.  The OP wants $1 total BOM.  Lets figure 0.25 for
> PCB,
> >>>>>> 0.25 for LCD, 0.40 for LCD controller.  The uC needs to be less
> >>>>> No, you can drive the glass directly from the MSP430.
> >>>> The cheap one does not have integrated charge pump.
> >>>> If you rely on constant 3V supply from a button cell, it will last
> >>>> only a couple of hours.  LCD would be unreadable below 2.5V.  Avr169
> >>>> can run for a few days, as  low as 1.8V, but not for under a dollar.
> >>>>> So 0.25 for PCB,
> >>>>> 0.25 for LCD leaves 0.50 for the micro. Definitely achievable in
> >>>>> volume.
> >>> I got confused!
>
> >>> .25 for PCB
> >>> .25 for LCD
> >>> .50 for Micro
> >>>  ?? Batteries !!
>
> >>> The sensor, is this going to detect with out a sensor module and what
> >>> about the coin batteries! i need to run for at least 30 hours.
>
> >> Using uC and PIR (Infra-Red heat sensor).
>
> >> .20 for Battery (CR2032).
>
> >> Here is a picture of an LCD in direct sunlight.  The CR3032 will last
> >> about 100 hours.
>
> >>http://linnix.com/proto/battery-tester.jpg
>
> >Interesting LCD display, where do you get it ?
>
> >donald
>
> Is the $0.25 for the screen shown above? How can i demand this kind of
> brightness when i order one? does it have specifications?

We got them for 60 cents in 10Ku.  Might be possible for less in
100Ku.  It's passive reflective LCD for direct sun-light viewings.

>
> How about using solar thick-film batteries like the ones they use on these
> calculators to prolong the life of the battery. would this be a cheaper
> option understanding that will only be used when there is lights.

The solar cell would not be cheap, around 50 cents perhaps.

>
> Regards,
> Raed

larwe wrote:

> On Apr 6, 5:52 pm, "raedarrar" <i...@0-800.tv> wrote:
> 
> 
>>detection distance between the hands and the device if i use an AC-coupled
>>circuit, can i determine the distance, and how far if so?
> 
> 
> You cannot determine the distance. You can detect if someone walks by
> or if someone waves a hand over the sensor. You can't tune the circuit
> to trigger on a finer resolution than that.

Did you ever deduce the motion detector in the supermarket cooler, Lewin?

Michael

>raedarrar wrote:
>> Hi all...I need the cheapest possible object sensor on the market to
embed
>> it onto a circuit board, any range between 100mm to 0mm, even a touch
or
>> pressure sensor which ever is cheaper. CapSense from Cypress is a
perfect
>> solution for my application because of its size, would not have been
for
>> the price ($1.40). Is any one knows of a cheaper solution and that it
>> would not need a micro controller. I do not need a long life sensor as
it
>> is a disposable kind of product.
>> 
>
>If it has to be cheaper just make you own capacitive sensor:
>http://www.nfilter.org/download.html
>
>I won't be nearly as good as CapSense but if there is no other choice, 
>what can you do? Just be aware that you need to also include some kind 
>of high pass so only fast movements trigger it. Requires lots of testing

>so that, for example, it doesn't react to a large mass (like a person) 
>slowly moving in and out of the field.
>
>-- 
>Regards, Joerg
>
>http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Ok, give me you best shot. Can not pass more the $0.80 total cost, can you
do it?

raedarrar wrote:
>> raedarrar wrote:
>>> Hi all...I need the cheapest possible object sensor on the market to
> embed
>>> it onto a circuit board, any range between 100mm to 0mm, even a touch
> or
>>> pressure sensor which ever is cheaper. CapSense from Cypress is a
> perfect
>>> solution for my application because of its size, would not have been
> for
>>> the price ($1.40). Is any one knows of a cheaper solution and that it
>>> would not need a micro controller. I do not need a long life sensor as
> it
>>> is a disposable kind of product.
>>>
>> If it has to be cheaper just make you own capacitive sensor:
>> http://www.nfilter.org/download.html
>>
>> I won't be nearly as good as CapSense but if there is no other choice, 
>> what can you do? Just be aware that you need to also include some kind 
>> of high pass so only fast movements trigger it. Requires lots of testing
> 
>> so that, for example, it doesn't react to a large mass (like a person) 
>> slowly moving in and out of the field.
>>
>> -- 
>> Regards, Joerg
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
> 
> 
> Ok, give me you best shot. Can not pass more the $0.80 total cost, can you
> do it?
> 

Sure. But I can't take on any additional designs right now. You'll have 
to experiment a lot to make sure it's sensitive enough but not too much. 
   Look at what you already have on the card. You could use a CMOS 
inverter as an amplifier or take a comparator. Make sure the output is a 
clean digital signal.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

>On Apr 6, 4:52 pm, "raedarrar" <i...@0-800.tv> wrote:
>> >linnix wrote:
>> >> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, "raedarrar" <i...@0-800.tv> wrote:
>> >>>> On Apr 6, 2:59 pm, larwe <zwsdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> On Apr 6, 5:38 pm, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
>> >>>>>>> MSP430F20xx, which is very cheap in large quantity - well
under
>> >>> your
>> >>>>>>> price target.
>> >>>>>> Probably not.  The OP wants $1 total BOM.  Lets figure 0.25 for
>> PCB,
>> >>>>>> 0.25 for LCD, 0.40 for LCD controller.  The uC needs to be less
>> >>>>> No, you can drive the glass directly from the MSP430.
>> >>>> The cheap one does not have integrated charge pump.
>> >>>> If you rely on constant 3V supply from a button cell, it will
last
>> >>>> only a couple of hours.  LCD would be unreadable below 2.5V. 
Avr169
>> >>>> can run for a few days, as  low as 1.8V, but not for under a
dollar.
>> >>>>> So 0.25 for PCB,
>> >>>>> 0.25 for LCD leaves 0.50 for the micro. Definitely achievable in
>> >>>>> volume.
>> >>> I got confused!
>>
>> >>> .25 for PCB
>> >>> .25 for LCD
>> >>> .50 for Micro
>> >>>  ?? Batteries !!
>>
>> >>> The sensor, is this going to detect with out a sensor module and
what
>> >>> about the coin batteries! i need to run for at least 30 hours.
>>
>> >> Using uC and PIR (Infra-Red heat sensor).
>>
>> >> .20 for Battery (CR2032).
>>
>> >> Here is a picture of an LCD in direct sunlight.  The CR3032 will
last
>> >> about 100 hours.
>>
>> >>http://linnix.com/proto/battery-tester.jpg
>>
>> >Interesting LCD display, where do you get it ?
>>
>> >donald
>>
>> Is the $0.25 for the screen shown above? How can i demand this kind of
>> brightness when i order one? does it have specifications?
>
>We got them for 60 cents in 10Ku.  Might be possible for less in
>100Ku.  It's passive reflective LCD for direct sun-light viewings.
>
>>
>> How about using solar thick-film batteries like the ones they use on
these
>> calculators to prolong the life of the battery. would this be a
cheaper
>> option understanding that will only be used when there is lights.
>
>The solar cell would not be cheap, around 50 cents perhaps.
>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Raed
>
>

But would it handle the voltage and supply a good brightness to the LCD to
for a readable under a bright large rooms during day time. If so, this will
help me on having a thinner product.

raedarrar wrote:
>> On Apr 6, 2:38 pm, "raedarrar" <i...@0-800.tv> wrote:
>>>> You are not telling us what to do with the hand wavings.  If you are
>>>> using it to turn on the device, false triggers (room lighting
> changes)
>>>> might not matter.  If you are using it to count votes, then it does
>>>> matter.
>>> Every time the device detects object in this case hands or fingers, i
> need
>>> it to count votes as long as its on. any advice?
>> More questions:
>> 1. Is the device fixed or movable?
>> 2. Can it use motion sensors?
>> 3. How many digits of countings?
>>
>> $3 to $5 would be doable.  $1 is wishful thinking.
>>
> 
> 1. Will be fixed.
> 2. Yes. this what i am looking for.
> 3. max. 9 votes counts, so its a 1 digit LCD.
> 
> I already have a solution that will go for &1.80 but i need a $1 selling
> price as it will be a disposable item for a life span of 30 to 50 hours of
> use.


The main question would be: $1 at what quantity per month? I assume you 
mean parts cost without PCB but with SMT assembly (in China).

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

>raedarrar wrote:
>>> On Apr 6, 2:38 pm, "raedarrar" <i...@0-800.tv> wrote:
>>>>> You are not telling us what to do with the hand wavings.  If you
are
>>>>> using it to turn on the device, false triggers (room lighting
>> changes)
>>>>> might not matter.  If you are using it to count votes, then it does
>>>>> matter.
>>>> Every time the device detects object in this case hands or fingers,
i
>> need
>>>> it to count votes as long as its on. any advice?
>>> More questions:
>>> 1. Is the device fixed or movable?
>>> 2. Can it use motion sensors?
>>> 3. How many digits of countings?
>>>
>>> $3 to $5 would be doable.  $1 is wishful thinking.
>>>
>> 
>> 1. Will be fixed.
>> 2. Yes. this what i am looking for.
>> 3. max. 9 votes counts, so its a 1 digit LCD.
>> 
>> I already have a solution that will go for &1.80 but i need a $1
selling
>> price as it will be a disposable item for a life span of 30 to 50 hours
of
>> use.
>
>
>The main question would be: $1 at what quantity per month? I assume you 
>mean parts cost without PCB but with SMT assembly (in China).
>
>-- 
>Regards, Joerg
>
>http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>


100,000 for 1st. order, see the estimated break down;

0.25 for PCB with assembly in china most probably.  
0.25 for LCD
0.50 for Micro
0.25 Coin Batteries or Solar cell.

Now the challenge is to find a solution for $0.80. I need some one to
simplify the idea as its a disposable item. 

They have mentioned "down below" to drive the glass directly from the
MSP430 in order not to use a sensor module to cut down the cost!! 


do you have another option?

On Apr 6, 6:08 pm, "raedarrar" <i...@0-800.tv> wrote:
> >raedarrar wrote:
> >>> On Apr 6, 2:38 pm, "raedarrar" <i...@0-800.tv> wrote:
> >>>>> You are not telling us what to do with the hand wavings.  If you
> are
> >>>>> using it to turn on the device, false triggers (room lighting
> >> changes)
> >>>>> might not matter.  If you are using it to count votes, then it does
> >>>>> matter.
> >>>> Every time the device detects object in this case hands or fingers,
> i
> >> need
> >>>> it to count votes as long as its on. any advice?
> >>> More questions:
> >>> 1. Is the device fixed or movable?
> >>> 2. Can it use motion sensors?
> >>> 3. How many digits of countings?
>
> >>> $3 to $5 would be doable.  $1 is wishful thinking.
>
> >> 1. Will be fixed.
> >> 2. Yes. this what i am looking for.
> >> 3. max. 9 votes counts, so its a 1 digit LCD.
>
> >> I already have a solution that will go for &1.80 but i need a $1
> selling
> >> price as it will be a disposable item for a life span of 30 to 50 hours
> of
> >> use.
>
> >The main question would be: $1 at what quantity per month? I assume you
> >mean parts cost without PCB but with SMT assembly (in China).
>
> >--
> >Regards, Joerg
>
> >http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>
> 100,000 for 1st. order, see the estimated break down;
>
> 0.25 for PCB with assembly in china most probably.
> 0.25 for LCD
> 0.50 for Micro
> 0.25 Coin Batteries or Solar cell.
>
> Now the challenge is to find a solution for $0.80. I need some one to
> simplify the idea as its a disposable item.
>
> They have mentioned "down below" to drive the glass directly from the
> MSP430 in order not to use a sensor module to cut down the cost!!
>
> do you have another option?

The only way to meet this price point is to build a mixed signal ASIC
and mount it directly on the LCD.  $100,000 would be a good starting
point.  We would need a DC-DC booster regulator, switching AC
sequencer, analog to digital converter, segment decoder and analog
operational amplifier.

>On Apr 6, 6:08 pm, "raedarrar" <i...@0-800.tv> wrote:
>> >raedarrar wrote:
>> >>> On Apr 6, 2:38 pm, "raedarrar" <i...@0-800.tv> wrote:
>> >>>>> You are not telling us what to do with the hand wavings.  If you
>> are
>> >>>>> using it to turn on the device, false triggers (room lighting
>> >> changes)
>> >>>>> might not matter.  If you are using it to count votes, then it
does
>> >>>>> matter.
>> >>>> Every time the device detects object in this case hands or
fingers,
>> i
>> >> need
>> >>>> it to count votes as long as its on. any advice?
>> >>> More questions:
>> >>> 1. Is the device fixed or movable?
>> >>> 2. Can it use motion sensors?
>> >>> 3. How many digits of countings?
>>
>> >>> $3 to $5 would be doable.  $1 is wishful thinking.
>>
>> >> 1. Will be fixed.
>> >> 2. Yes. this what i am looking for.
>> >> 3. max. 9 votes counts, so its a 1 digit LCD.
>>
>> >> I already have a solution that will go for &1.80 but i need a $1
>> selling
>> >> price as it will be a disposable item for a life span of 30 to 50
hours
>> of
>> >> use.
>>
>> >The main question would be: $1 at what quantity per month? I assume
you
>> >mean parts cost without PCB but with SMT assembly (in China).
>>
>> >--
>> >Regards, Joerg
>>
>> >http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>>
>> 100,000 for 1st. order, see the estimated break down;
>>
>> 0.25 for PCB with assembly in china most probably.
>> 0.25 for LCD
>> 0.50 for Micro
>> 0.25 Coin Batteries or Solar cell.
>>
>> Now the challenge is to find a solution for $0.80. I need some one to
>> simplify the idea as its a disposable item.
>>
>> They have mentioned "down below" to drive the glass directly from the
>> MSP430 in order not to use a sensor module to cut down the cost!!
>>
>> do you have another option?
>
>The only way to meet this price point is to build a mixed signal ASIC
>and mount it directly on the LCD.  $100,000 would be a good starting
>point.  We would need a DC-DC booster regulator, switching AC
>sequencer, analog to digital converter, segment decoder and analog
>operational amplifier.
>



Thank you on your great alternatives, you guys have mentions some
alternatives:

1. Using uC and PIR (Infra-Red heat sensor).

2. Drive the glass directly from the MSP430 (Texas Instruments)
http://focus.ti.com/mcu/docs/mcuprodoverview.tsp?sectionId=95&tabId=140&familyId=342

3. Build a mixed signal ASIC and mount it directly on the LCD adding DC-DC
booster regulator, switching AC sequencer, analog to digital converter,
segment decoder and analog operational amplifier.

4. How about the crude touch-sensors from early tv remote controls (think
70th)? These where just two electrodes (part of the PCB) and a very simple
analog transistor-circuit that measures the presence of body-resistance.

5. LED modulated with 40KHz. A photo-detector can detect the reflection of
the 40Khz. The strength of the reflection can give a simple distance.

6. Send pulses to an LED. Detected the reflected light. Ignore light that
doesn't appear to be from the LED pulses.

7. "Digital theremin". With essentially a schmitt-trigger inverter and a
few passives, can create a capacitance-based circuit to detect the
approach of a body part. But it is fairly difficult to design one that is
tolerant of voltage and temperature changes. Easier with a micro. TI also
has an app note on doing this with an MSP430F20xx,

8. Devices like motion-sensitive toys use an AC-coupled circuit triggered
by a change in the resistance of a CdS cell. 

Let me refresh the requirements:

1. I will be using this device in a constant light ambient so turning
lights on & off would not occur.

2. During detection the device will be fixed, will not be moving.

3. Will run on batteries and Needs around 30 to 100 hrs. of power on.

4. 1 digit display; either LCD or LED which ever cheaper & less power
consuming. 

5. the LCD or LED will be counting till 9 votes max. accumulative.

6. Detection distance can be 10mm to 100mm. does not matter, as hands or
fingers will pass very close to the device.

7. No one will be using gloves.

8. No memory needed. I need to accumulate votes when it is on "it loses
all its memory when it shuts off" and when it turns on again will start
counting all over again.
 
Any one can tell me, initially, what seems the cheapest solution? Can you
breakdown the cost on the best alternative?


Regards,
Raed

On Apr 7, 12:06=A0am, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:

> The only way to meet this price point is to build a mixed signal ASIC
> and mount it directly on the LCD. =A0$100,000 would be a good starting

Patently not true. There are bunches of other options - micros for the
electronic toy market, for instance.