On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 20:08:32 -0500, "raedarrar" <info@0-800.tv> wrote:>>raedarrar wrote: >>>> On Apr 6, 2:38 pm, "raedarrar" <i...@0-800.tv> wrote: >>>>>> You are not telling us what to do with the hand wavings. If you >are >>>>>> using it to turn on the device, false triggers (room lighting >>> changes) >>>>>> might not matter. If you are using it to count votes, then it does >>>>>> matter. >>>>> Every time the device detects object in this case hands or fingers, >i >>> need >>>>> it to count votes as long as its on. any advice? >>>> More questions: >>>> 1. Is the device fixed or movable? >>>> 2. Can it use motion sensors? >>>> 3. How many digits of countings? >>>> >>>> $3 to $5 would be doable. $1 is wishful thinking. >>>> >>> >>> 1. Will be fixed. >>> 2. Yes. this what i am looking for. >>> 3. max. 9 votes counts, so its a 1 digit LCD. >>> >>> I already have a solution that will go for &1.80 but i need a $1 >selling >>> price as it will be a disposable item for a life span of 30 to 50 hours >of >>> use. >> >> >>The main question would be: $1 at what quantity per month? I assume you >>mean parts cost without PCB but with SMT assembly (in China). >> >>-- >>Regards, Joerg >> >>http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >> > > >100,000 for 1st. order, see the estimated break down; > >0.25 for PCB with assembly in china most probably.High for a single-sided board>0.25 for LCDHigh unless it's bigger than watch size>0.50 for MicroHigh unless you insist on a powerful micro>0.25 Coin Batteries or Solar cell.Very high for a coin cell>Now the challenge is to find a solution for $0.80. I need some one to >simplify the idea as its a disposable item.Sounds like the sensor is your issue.>They have mentioned "down below" to drive the glass directly from the >MSP430 in order not to use a sensor module to cut down the cost!! > > >do you have another option? >Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Cheapest object sensor on the market!
Started by ●April 6, 2008
Reply by ●April 7, 20082008-04-07
Reply by ●April 7, 20082008-04-07
raedarrar wrote:>> raedarrar wrote: >>>> On Apr 6, 2:38 pm, "raedarrar" <i...@0-800.tv> wrote: >>>>>> You are not telling us what to do with the hand wavings. If you > are >>>>>> using it to turn on the device, false triggers (room lighting >>> changes) >>>>>> might not matter. If you are using it to count votes, then it does >>>>>> matter. >>>>> Every time the device detects object in this case hands or fingers, > i >>> need >>>>> it to count votes as long as its on. any advice? >>>> More questions: >>>> 1. Is the device fixed or movable? >>>> 2. Can it use motion sensors? >>>> 3. How many digits of countings? >>>> >>>> $3 to $5 would be doable. $1 is wishful thinking. >>>> >>> 1. Will be fixed. >>> 2. Yes. this what i am looking for. >>> 3. max. 9 votes counts, so its a 1 digit LCD. >>> >>> I already have a solution that will go for &1.80 but i need a $1 > selling >>> price as it will be a disposable item for a life span of 30 to 50 hours > of >>> use. >> >> The main question would be: $1 at what quantity per month? I assume you >> mean parts cost without PCB but with SMT assembly (in China). >> >> -- >> Regards, Joerg >> >> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >> > > > 100,000 for 1st. order, see the estimated break down; >Now that's finally a good number.> 0.25 for PCB with assembly in china most probably.That can be improved. Hint: Consider moving from FR4 to phenolic. I don't think you'd have any other option for this project.> 0.25 for LCDFor 1-2 numbers? Sounds high. I thought you only need to count to 9.> 0.50 for MicroYou can also do better here but only with Asian products and most likely you'll have to enter the not-so-pleasant world of 4-bit coding.> 0.25 Coin Batteries or Solar cell. >Renegotiate that. $0.25 for a coin battery is way too high a price at 100K qties. Even at Digikey you can get 4000qty 3V cells for under $0.15: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=P189-ND> Now the challenge is to find a solution for $0.80. I need some one to > simplify the idea as its a disposable item. >Honestly I think your first avenue would be to negotiate a bit tougher.> They have mentioned "down below" to drive the glass directly from the > MSP430 in order not to use a sensor module to cut down the cost!! > > > do you have another option? >The MSP430 would likely be too expensive. You can try but it'll be hard to get one that can drive glass for under $0.70. Look around for other uC. As I mentioned before one option would be to use on-chip comparators and a kind of "touch key". You'd set the touch key to VCC/2 via two 18M resistors or thereabouts, then from there to the comp input via another 1M (for some ESD protection). The other input of the comp would get an RC filtered PWM from the timer. You'll have to detect excursions in either direction because you won't know the charge polarity of an approaching hand. Just a thought, try it out. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●April 7, 20082008-04-07
> The MSP430 would likely be too expensive. You can try but it'll be hard > to get one that can drive glass for under $0.70. Look around for other > uC.We are constantly looking. No reasonable LCD uC under $1 @100Ku. However, using custom ASIC with power managements for LCD drivings, there are plenty of uC for 25 cents. ASIC would cost another 25 cents. Don't forget assembly costs as well, which are going up. Inflation in China is even worse than the US.
Reply by ●April 7, 20082008-04-07
linnix wrote:>> The MSP430 would likely be too expensive. You can try but it'll be hard >> to get one that can drive glass for under $0.70. Look around for other >> uC. > > We are constantly looking. No reasonable LCD uC under $1 @100Ku. > > However, using custom ASIC with power managements for LCD drivings, > there are plenty of uC for 25 cents. ASIC would cost another 25 > cents. >Ok, but somebody must be building the chips for those radios that have an LCD and retail for $0.99 at times. Not that they are any good IMHO but they must turn a profit.> Don't forget assembly costs as well, which are going up. Inflation in > China is even worse than the US. >True. That's why one has to take a hard look at the materials. For example consider phenolic board. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●April 7, 20082008-04-07
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:57:09 -0700 (PDT), linnix <me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:>> The MSP430 would likely be too expensive. You can try but it'll be hard >> to get one that can drive glass for under $0.70. Look around for other >> uC. > >We are constantly looking. No reasonable LCD uC under $1 @100Ku.LCD uCs are for wimps. Use a regular uC and some resistors. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Reply by ●April 7, 20082008-04-07
On Apr 7, 11:06 am, Joerg <notthisjoerg...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:> linnix wrote: > >> The MSP430 would likely be too expensive. You can try but it'll be hard > >> to get one that can drive glass for under $0.70. Look around for other > >> uC. > > > We are constantly looking. No reasonable LCD uC under $1 @100Ku. > > > However, using custom ASIC with power managements for LCD drivings, > > there are plenty of uC for 25 cents. ASIC would cost another 25 > > cents. > > Ok, but somebody must be building the chips for those radios that have > an LCD and retail for $0.99 at times. Not that they are any good IMHO > but they must turn a profit.Yes, they are most likely ASICs. LCD driving circuit does not cost much to make. But if you want it in a general purpose uC, they will jack up pin counts, memories, cost, etc.> > > Don't forget assembly costs as well, which are going up. Inflation in > > China is even worse than the US. > > True. That's why one has to take a hard look at the materials. For > example consider phenolic board. > > -- > Regards, Joerg > > http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●April 7, 20082008-04-07
On Apr 7, 11:14 am, Spehro Pefhany <speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:> On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:57:09 -0700 (PDT), linnix > > <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > >> The MSP430 would likely be too expensive. You can try but it'll be hard > >> to get one that can drive glass for under $0.70. Look around for other > >> uC. > > >We are constantly looking. No reasonable LCD uC under $1 @100Ku. > > LCD uCs are for wimps. Use a regular uC and some resistors.and only 10% of the battery.
Reply by ●April 7, 20082008-04-07
linnix wrote:> On Apr 7, 11:06 am, Joerg <notthisjoerg...@removethispacbell.net> > wrote: >> linnix wrote: >>>> The MSP430 would likely be too expensive. You can try but it'll be hard >>>> to get one that can drive glass for under $0.70. Look around for other >>>> uC. >>> We are constantly looking. No reasonable LCD uC under $1 @100Ku. >>> However, using custom ASIC with power managements for LCD drivings, >>> there are plenty of uC for 25 cents. ASIC would cost another 25 >>> cents. >> Ok, but somebody must be building the chips for those radios that have >> an LCD and retail for $0.99 at times. Not that they are any good IMHO >> but they must turn a profit. > > Yes, they are most likely ASICs. LCD driving circuit does not cost > much to make. But if you want it in a general purpose uC, they will > jack up pin counts, memories, cost, etc. >I haven't priced out 4-bitters with small LCD capabilities like the Panasonic 1500 series lately. Their 150404 maybe? Has the comparator on the chips AFAIR. Or talk to companies in the wrist watch business: http://www.emmarin.com/Line.asp?IdLine=2 [...] Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●April 7, 20082008-04-07
linnix wrote:> On Apr 7, 11:14 am, Spehro Pefhany <speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> > wrote: >> On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:57:09 -0700 (PDT), linnix >> >> <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: >>>> The MSP430 would likely be too expensive. You can try but it'll be hard >>>> to get one that can drive glass for under $0.70. Look around for other >>>> uC. >>> We are constantly looking. No reasonable LCD uC under $1 @100Ku. >> LCD uCs are for wimps. Use a regular uC and some resistors. > > and only 10% of the battery. >Spehro's idea might actually be good if the uC has enouigh pins. AFAIR the OP was mentioning a 30hr runtime. That's not a whole lot for a 3V coin cell. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●April 7, 20082008-04-07
On Apr 7, 11:56 am, Joerg <notthisjoerg...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:> linnix wrote: > > On Apr 7, 11:14 am, Spehro Pefhany <speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> > > wrote: > >> On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:57:09 -0700 (PDT), linnix > > >> <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > >>>> The MSP430 would likely be too expensive. You can try but it'll be hard > >>>> to get one that can drive glass for under $0.70. Look around for other > >>>> uC. > >>> We are constantly looking. No reasonable LCD uC under $1 @100Ku. > >> LCD uCs are for wimps. Use a regular uC and some resistors. > > > and only 10% of the battery. > > Spehro's idea might actually be good if the uC has enouigh pins.Might work for static LCDs. Multiplexed (x4) LCDs are very tight in voltage tolerance. It becomes unreadable below 2.5V. You can't get constant brightness without proper voltage regulations.> AFAIR > the OP was mentioning a 30hr runtime. That's not a whole lot for a 3V > coin cell. > > -- > Regards, Joerg > > http://www.analogconsultants.com/
