The Right PCB House

On Jun 29, 11:10=EF=BF=BDpm, JeffM <jef...@email.com> wrote:
> mpm wrote:
> >JeffM wrote:
> >>Pad2Pad, ExpressPCB, & PCB123 are all essentially the same thing.
> >>They are all lock-in-ware.
> >>Their output is NOT portable between fab houses.
> >>None of them produce Gerbers.
>
> >Jeff - your information is incorrect.
>
> Thank you for interpolating my post.
> I assure you that was not necessary.
>
> I repeat: =EF=BF=BDThis "free" software does not *PRODUCE* Gerbers.
> If you use it, you are LOCKED IN to a single fab house.
>
> What I am saying is that to call itself an ECAD Package,
> software should be able to generate Gerbers ON ITS OWN.
>
> What you are describing
> meets the classic definition of CRIPPLEWARE.
>
> >For $60, ExpressPCB will definitely send you a Gerber file.
>
> I did NOT say there was no way to PURCHASE Gerbers.
> ...AND PAY *AGAIN* AFTER THE SLIGHTEST CHANGE.
>
> If that's what YOU want, fine.
> Full disclosure for the other folks is another thing.
> Most people want to know what the cards up the sleeve are.
> .
> .
> ...and it appears you STILL haven't read this:http://groups.google.com/gr=
oup/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thre...

Jeff - What is your problem?
You gave out bad info.  I corrected it.  Get over it.

I personally used ExpressPCB, got the boards exactly the way I wanted
them, then turned around and got the Gerbers from ExpressPCB (for an
additional $60), and then proceeded to shop the high-volume production
boards overseas.  (Using those same Gerbers).

So, explain how I was "locked-in".  ?????

I am not so interested in correcting your statements (interpolating or
whatever), nor am I that interested in the nuance argument as to
whether the ExpressPCB directly produces a Gerber output (which I
never claimed, but you invented).

My only purpose here was to correct the post, so that other's could
rely on the right information as they make their choices.   I also did
not opine on whether the ExpressPCB route was any better or worse, or
less expensive than having your own high(er)-end program in house,
such as Orcad or whatever.

The bottom line is ExpressPCB can indeed (eventually) result in a
Gerber file that you can port between fabricators.  This statement is
in direct contravention to your earler remark that:

And I quote:

> >>They are all lock-in-ware.
> >>Their output is NOT portable between fab houses.
> >>None of them produce Gerbers.

Have a nice day.

-mpm

I would have just bought my own software.

There is plenty of free stuff and paid for packages.

There is often something on ebay for a few pounds.

"Roger_the_Dodger" <cresswellavenue@talktalk.net> wrote in message 
news:7a629a7a-e1d6-40e7-9408-d74a1f7f6126@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> There is often something on ebay for a few pounds.

Nothing that's at the same level of quality/utility as, e.g., Altium, 
Pulsonix, PADS, or even Eagle is "a few pounds."

>"Roger_the_Dodger" <cresswellavenue@ talktalk.net> wrote:
>>There is often something on ebay for a few pounds.
>>
Joel Koltner wrote:
>Nothing that's at the same level of quality/utility as, e.g., Altium,
>Pulsonix, PADS, or even Eagle is "a few pounds."

I thought I recognized that rap.  Yup, I called it.
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?enc_author=_U-3sxwAAACljgN-V29TdGsdWVTrgV-GXiYp9-orUyGBN00G0sVMjw&scoring=d

Heee's baaack. (Marra, aka cadman, aka Nigel Wright, aka...)
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.cad/browse_frm/thread/7eb8dfaa19ed5709/a74114ef2d864b4a?q=his-ethics+zzz+Nigel.Wright+ugly.schematics+KNOW-YOUR-VENDOR+god.awful

Roger_the_Codger wrote:
> 
> I would have just bought my own software.
> 
> There is plenty of free stuff and paid for packages.
> 
> There is often something on ebay for a few pounds.



   A few pounds of what?


-- 
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm

Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming'
sheep.

"JeffM" <jeffm_@email.com> wrote in message 
news:0e540b29-bca6-4ce3-8db5-f2b74a08c487@j33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> I thought I recognized that rap.  Yup, I called it.
> http://groups.google.com/groups/search?enc_author=_U-3sxwAAACljgN-V29TdGsdWVTrgV-GXiYp9-orUyGBN00G0sVMjw&scoring=d
> Heee's baaack. (Marra, aka cadman, aka Nigel Wright, aka...)

Sheesh.  What a strange man; he seems intelligent enough yet completely unable 
or unwilling to conduct himself in a reasonably respectable manner...

On Jun 22, 4:30 am, Robert Baer <robertb...@localnet.com> wrote:
> mpm wrote:
> > On Jun 21, 10:53=EF=BF=BDam, Hauke D <hau...@zero-g.net> wrote:
>
> >>Hi,
>
> >>I've had good experiences with Advanced Circuits (http://www.
> >>4pcb.com/). Make sure to use their free FDM service (http://www.freedfm=
.com/), even if you don't end up going with them for
> >>manufacturing.
>
> >>ExpressPCB is only good for quick-and-dirty stuff. Their advantage is
> >>that they're cheap and their design software is pretty simple to use,
> >>but the big disadvantage is that it locks you in to their software.
> >>Also I've never done 4-layer stuff with them; I believe they're also
> >>kind of limited in that department. They're great for quick-and-dirty
> >>stuff though.
>
> >>Regards,
> >>-- Hauke D
>
> >>On Jun 21, 4:19 pm, "Talal Itani" <tit...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >>>Hello,
>
> >>>I need to have a 4-layer board made, a prototype, 2 boards, nothing fa=
ncy.
> >>>I did some research in this newsgroup and I narrowed it down to Sierra=
 Pro
> >>>Express, ExpressPCB, and AC Advanced Circuits. =EF=BF=BDDo you think I=
 made the
> >>>right choice? =EF=BF=BDDo you have any recommendations? =EF=BF=BDI wou=
ld like to receive the
> >>>board 3-5 days.
>
> >>>T.I.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >>- Show quoted text -
>
> > I've used ExpressPCB for small projects before, but always 2-layer
> > stuff.
> > I've never had a problem with them, or their boards.
>
> > As for being "locked-in" to their software, for an extra $60 (last
> > time I checked), they will send you the Gerber files.  From there, you
> > can import to many of the other programs avail.
>
> > Also, I recall hearing a while ago that a lot of these PCB prototype
> > houses are all built at the same place anyway.  So, while you might
> > see 10 different company names (i.e., resellers), the boards
> > themselves all come from the same place.   Sorry, I don't remember the
> > names of the companies involved, and don't know whether ExpressPCB is
> > one of them.
>
> > -mpm
>
>    ExpressPCB stuff comes from Mulino OR and at one time i knew the name
> of the "parent" company that will do much "fancier" boards.

Actually both ExpressPCB and PCBexpress both get shipped from Mulino,
Oregon.

ExpressPCB came up with the idea of freeware PCB layout tools and
charging for board manufacturing. They contracted with ECD (which
spunoff SunStone Circuits sometime in the late 90s) to manufacture
boards for them. ECD (or maybe SunStone) liked the idea and created
PCBexpress to tap into the market. PCBexpress created PCB123 layout
software to compete with ExpressPCB.

Regardless of how you design your boards, with ExpressPCB, PCB123, or
Eagle and then ship your gerber files to PCBexpress, the boards get
made at a PCB plant in Mulino.

The board plant used to make pretty good boards years ago when I
worked as an electronics designer for ECD. After I left, I've used
ExpressPCB to create dozens of prototypes that were made there. They
were all pretty good quality.

Mark

In article <b339b240-31a3-4677-bb09-14089698e238
@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, mhahn@hvc.rr.com says...
> On Jun 22, 4:30 am, Robert Baer <robertb...@localnet.com> wrote:
> > mpm wrote:
> > > On Jun 21, 10:53=EF=BF=3D3Fam, Hauke D <hau...@zero-g.net> wrote:
> >
> > >>Hi,
> >
> > >>I've had good experiences with Advanced Circuits (http://www.
> > >>4pcb.com/). Make sure to use their free FDM service (http://www.freed=
fm.com/), even if you don't end up going with them for
> > >>manufacturing.
> >
> > >>ExpressPCB is only good for quick-and-dirty stuff. Their advantage is
> > >>that they're cheap and their design software is pretty simple to use,
> > >>but the big disadvantage is that it locks you in to their software.
> > >>Also I've never done 4-layer stuff with them; I believe they're also
> > >>kind of limited in that department. They're great for quick-and-dirty
> > >>stuff though.
> >
> > >>Regards,
> > >>-- Hauke D
> >
> > >>On Jun 21, 4:19 pm, "Talal Itani" <tit...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> > >>>Hello,
> >
> > >>>I need to have a 4-layer board made, a prototype, 2 boards, nothing =
fancy.
> > >>>I did some research in this newsgroup and I narrowed it down to Sier=
ra Pro
> > >>>Express, ExpressPCB, and AC Advanced Circuits. =EF=BF=3D3FDo you thi=
nk I made the
> > >>>right choice? =EF=BF=3D3FDo you have any recommendations? =EF=BF=3D3=
FI would like to receive the
> > >>>board 3-5 days.
> >
> > >>>T.I.- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > >>- Show quoted text -
> >
> > > I've used ExpressPCB for small projects before, but always 2-layer
> > > stuff.
> > > I've never had a problem with them, or their boards.
> >
> > > As for being "locked-in" to their software, for an extra $60 (last
> > > time I checked), they will send you the Gerber files.  From there, yo=
u
> > > can import to many of the other programs avail.
> >
> > > Also, I recall hearing a while ago that a lot of these PCB prototype
> > > houses are all built at the same place anyway.  So, while you might
> > > see 10 different company names (i.e., resellers), the boards
> > > themselves all come from the same place.   Sorry, I don't remember th=
e
> > > names of the companies involved, and don't know whether ExpressPCB is
> > > one of them.
> >
> > > -mpm
> >
> >    ExpressPCB stuff comes from Mulino OR and at one time i knew the nam=
e
> > of the "parent" company that will do much "fancier" boards.
>=20
> Actually both ExpressPCB and PCBexpress both get shipped from Mulino,
> Oregon.
>=20
> ExpressPCB came up with the idea of freeware PCB layout tools and
> charging for board manufacturing. They contracted with ECD (which
> spunoff SunStone Circuits sometime in the late 90s) to manufacture
> boards for them. ECD (or maybe SunStone) liked the idea and created
> PCBexpress to tap into the market. PCBexpress created PCB123 layout
> software to compete with ExpressPCB.
>=20
> Regardless of how you design your boards, with ExpressPCB, PCB123, or
> Eagle and then ship your gerber files to PCBexpress, the boards get
> made at a PCB plant in Mulino.
>=20
> The board plant used to make pretty good boards years ago when I
> worked as an electronics designer for ECD. After I left, I've used
> ExpressPCB to create dozens of prototypes that were made there. They
> were all pretty good quality.

I've had excellent results with them over the last 6-8 years.  They
must be getting more confident in their process control, as the
quickturn trace and space used to be 8mil/8mil.   Now it's down
to 6mil/6mil.  On full-service boards they will go to 5mil/5mil.
The 6mil level is good enough for any of the boards I  do.

I've had upwards of 1000 boards, from perhaps a dozen  designs,
with no problems other than those I caused.  My last production
problem was a single  whisker-short on a board about 5 years ago.
I've never seen that again, so I suppose it was a one-time under
etch.

Mark Borgerson

On Jun 29, 4:21 pm, Mark Borgerson <mborger...@comcast.net> wrote:
> In article <tYCdnXlXl47nkMPVnZ2dnUVZ_sudn...@posted.localnet>,
> robertb...@localnet.com says...
>
> Don't mix up ExpressPCB and PCB Express.  The latter is a division of
> Sunstone, which builds boards in Mulino, Oregon.  Sunstone gives me good
> boards and I live close enough that the free UPS ground shipping gets me
> boards the day after shipment.  Sunstone also has their own free PCB
> suite,  PCB123.
>  http://www.pcb123.com/
>
> I now order all my PCBs from Sunstone, so I'm a biased reporter.    I've
> been a fan of theirs since their  customer service techs helped me
> through some problems with an older, low-cost layout suite.   They're
> still helping me through some problems with bigger 4-layers boards
> since I've converted to PADS.
>
> Mark Borgerson

You must get much better service than I did.  I had Sunstone build two
boards for me.  The first was the production board which was ordered
in six panels of 22 each.  They built seven panels to cover any losses
and still could only deliver 116 boards.  That's a loss rate of 25%!

I also asked them to build the test fixture for this board.  By the
time the test fixture was away to them it had turned into the long
pole in the tent schedule-wise.  I gave them my info and they accepted
the order.  A week later when I was expecting the order to be
delivered, I contacted them for a tracking number.  I was told that
the order had been put on hold waiting for a credit card number and
when the number didn't come it was ***canceled***.  It seems that they
lost the CC number and NO ONE contacted me about it!  So then I had to
wait ***ANOTHER*** week.  Oddly enough, they lost my CC number a
second time which again bit me in the butt... I got the test fixture
panels ok, but I still needed another panel of the production board.

They had apologized for the shortage and offered me the choice of
deducting the shortage from my bill or building another panel.  I
waited until testing of the protos was complete and asked for the
replacement panel to make up the shortage which was needed to complete
the initial production build.  They accepted that order, but they
spent an extra day checking the files I had to resend to them and it
went into production a day late.  Of course they were not willing to
try to speed up the fabrication to make up for it.  Finally they were
supposed to deliver last week on Thursday directly to the assembly
house.  I contacted Sunstone on Friday to get a tracking number to see
if the panel had made it ok only to find out that they had built the
boards, but would not ship them because I was now on credit hold!!!  I
had received an invoice for the test fixture a week earlier and sent
off a check which was expected on that Friday.  They couldn't tell me
if the check had been received or not and they couldn't tell me if the
boards would ship or not.

I can honestly say that I have ***never*** worked with a more
incompetent group of people.  Every time I contacted them I had to
start over explaining the situation.  The different departments don't
seem to talk to each other, but rather expect their internal tracking
system to keep everyone informed.  But I found over and over again
that no one uses the system properly.  They lost my credit card
number, not once, but twice.  That has got to make you wonder where it
went!  But the really bad part of all this was the way that everything
that happened was as much a surprise to the various contacts there as
it was to me.  They did not once inform me of anything that was
happening and when I asked it was like pulling teeth to get accurate
info from them.

I will never use Sunstone again and I would not let anyone I liked
use them either!

Rick

On Jun 29, 10:32 pm, mpm <mpmill...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jun 29, 5:34=EF=BF=BDpm, JeffM <jef...@email.com> wrote:
>
> > Mark Borgerson wrote:
> > >Don't mix up ExpressPCB and PCB Express.
> > >The latter is a division of Sunstone[...]
> > >Sunstone also has their own free PCB suite, =EF=BF=BDPCB123.
>
> > Pad2Pad, ExpressPCB, & PCB123 are all essentially the same thing.
> > They are all lock-in-ware.
> > Their output is NOT portable between fab houses.
> > None of them produce Gerbers.
>
> Jeff - your information is incorrect.
> For $60, ExpressPCB will definitely send you a Gerber file.
> I know this from first hand experience.  (The others mentioned also
> might, but I can't say)
>
> I also concur that it is not the best approach if you do enough boards
> to justify "better" schematic capture / PCB layout software (i.e., in-
> house).  But if you want to port the boards to production fabrication
> (offshore), you certainly can obtain Gerbers from ExpressPCB.
>
> -mpm

Why screw with crippleware when you can get totally free layout
programs that are as good as commercial ones?  FreePCB is an excellent
program that costs nothing and has better support through the web site
forum and Yahoo group than most commercial packages have if you pay
for support!

I haven't found the perfect schematic program, but for layout, I am
very happy with FreePCB.

Rick