On 2008-06-21, Talal Itani <titani@verizon.net> wrote:> > I need to have a 4-layer board made, a prototype, 2 boards, nothing fancy. > I did some research in this newsgroup and I narrowed it down to Sierra Pro > ExpressI've gotten 4-layer from Sierra (no-touch service) and the boards and the service were good. If you had more time I'd also consider custompcb (cheap, in Malaysia, quality is acceptable but not great) and batchpcb (cost effective for small boards or small runs, good quality, long lead times). -- Ben Jackson AD7GD <ben@ben.com> http://www.ben.com/
The Right PCB House
Started by ●June 21, 2008
Reply by ●June 22, 20082008-06-22
Reply by ●June 22, 20082008-06-22
"Talal Itani" <titani@verizon.net> wrote in message news:V587k.564$IL6.235@trnddc04...> Hello, > > I need to have a 4-layer board made, a prototype, 2 boards, nothing > fancy. I did some research in this newsgroup and I narrowed it down to > Sierra Pro Express, ExpressPCB, and AC Advanced Circuits. Do you think I > made the right choice? Do you have any recommendations? I would like to > receive the board 3-5 days. > > T.I.I have had good experiences with www.pcbfabexpress.com, but I have only done 2 layer boards in small quantities. For low price and moderate quantities, I have used a company in China: www.pcbcart.com. I received the boards within 8 days of actually placing the order, and they were quick to respond to questions by email. The only real problem I had was that I had specified 2 oz copper, and when I did a voltage drop text on a critical high current track it was the equivalent of 1 oz. They have promised to correct that on my next order, which I will be placing soon. I had to make a completely new design based on my testing of the ones they did, not because of any fault on their part, and I am fairly confident that the next order will be OK. I was able to get 108 pieces of 1" x 2" boards, panelized and scored, for about $140 including FedEx from China. Even having to scrap the first order, I am still saving several hundred dollars over almost any other source. I would rather buy from and support local vendors, but with such a huge price differential, I can pass some of my savings on to my customers. And I have a feeling that some of the so-called "local" vendors may actually farm the jobs to Chinese or East European fab houses, and just operate as middlemen, which does not do all that much for domestic economy. I can save 100 local customers $3 each, or I can make one local company richer by $300. Paul
Reply by ●June 23, 20082008-06-23
Talal Itani wrote:> "Robert Baer" <robertbaer@localnet.com> wrote in message > news:-PSdnXt4z_WBlsPVnZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@posted.localnet... > >>Talal Itani wrote: >> >>>Hello, >>> >>>I need to have a 4-layer board made, a prototype, 2 boards, nothing >>>fancy. I did some research in this newsgroup and I narrowed it down to >>>Sierra Pro Express, ExpressPCB, and AC Advanced Circuits. Do you think I >>>made the right choice? Do you have any recommendations? I would like to >>>receive the board 3-5 days. >>> >>>T.I. >> >> One usually has to pay a premium for anything less than 10 days, and >>certainly for 3 days. >> Besids, transportation will take anywhere from 2 days to 5 days (total >>turn-around time). >> Are you Russian? > > > > No. > >The Q was "why the rush"?
Reply by ●June 23, 20082008-06-23
Joerg wrote:> Robert Baer wrote: > >> Joerg wrote: >> >>> Talal Itani wrote: >>> >>>> Can ExpressPCB receive files from other PCB software? >>>> >>>> >>>>> I've had good experiences with Advanced Circuits (http://www. >>>>> 4pcb.com/). Make sure to use their free FDM service >>>>> (http://www.freedfm.com/), even if you don't end up going with them >>>>> for >>>>> manufacturing. >>>>> >>>>> ExpressPCB is only good for quick-and-dirty stuff. Their advantage is >>>>> that they're cheap and their design software is pretty simple to use, >>>>> but the big disadvantage is that it locks you in to their software. >>>>> Also I've never done 4-layer stuff with them; I believe they're also >>>>> kind of limited in that department. They're great for quick-and-dirty >>>>> stuff though. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> -- Hauke D >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 21, 4:19 pm, "Talal Itani" <tit...@verizon.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> I need to have a 4-layer board made, a prototype, 2 boards, >>>>>> nothing fancy. >>>>>> I did some research in this newsgroup and I narrowed it down to >>>>>> Sierra Pro >>>>>> Express, ExpressPCB, and AC Advanced Circuits. ?Do you think I >>>>>> made the >>>>>> right choice? ?Do you have any recommendations? ?I would like to >>>>>> receive the >>>>>> board 3-5 days. >>>>>> T.I.- Hide quoted text - >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I've used ExpressPCB for small projects before, but always 2-layer >>>> stuff. >>>> I've never had a problem with them, or their boards. >>>> >>>> As for being "locked-in" to their software, for an extra $60 (last >>>> time I checked), they will send you the Gerber files. From there, you >>>> can import to many of the other programs avail. >>>> >>> >>> Then if you need to make a little change it'll be another $60? >>> >>> >>>> Also, I recall hearing a while ago that a lot of these PCB prototype >>>> houses are all built at the same place anyway. So, while you might >>>> see 10 different company names (i.e., resellers), the boards >>>> themselves all come from the same place. Sorry, I don't remember the >>>> names of the companies involved, and don't know whether ExpressPCB is >>>> one of them. >>>> >>> >>> I have also used 4PCB, quite happy so far. They only messed up once >>> (unapproved Gerber edits) but made good on that with an additional >>> fast run, on the house. The nice thing is that I always have a real >>> contact person there. She really helped us when they defaulted to >>> this dreaded RoHS process which we absolutely did not want. >>> >> Not much differnce between tin/lead solder on pads and silver plate >> *IF* one is not going above (say) 150C. >> Tin/lead solder and tin/silver solders act esentially the same, so >> what is the beef? > > > > Non-RoHS parts on a RoHS PCB usually isn't a good idea. >Give at least one good reason...
Reply by ●June 23, 20082008-06-23
Robert Baer wrote:> Joerg wrote: > >> Robert Baer wrote: >> >>> Joerg wrote: >>> >>>> Talal Itani wrote: >>>> >>>>> Can ExpressPCB receive files from other PCB software? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I've had good experiences with Advanced Circuits (http://www. >>>>>> 4pcb.com/). Make sure to use their free FDM service >>>>>> (http://www.freedfm.com/), even if you don't end up going with >>>>>> them for >>>>>> manufacturing. >>>>>> >>>>>> ExpressPCB is only good for quick-and-dirty stuff. Their advantage is >>>>>> that they're cheap and their design software is pretty simple to use, >>>>>> but the big disadvantage is that it locks you in to their software. >>>>>> Also I've never done 4-layer stuff with them; I believe they're also >>>>>> kind of limited in that department. They're great for quick-and-dirty >>>>>> stuff though. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> -- Hauke D >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 21, 4:19 pm, "Talal Itani" <tit...@verizon.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> I need to have a 4-layer board made, a prototype, 2 boards, >>>>>>> nothing fancy. >>>>>>> I did some research in this newsgroup and I narrowed it down to >>>>>>> Sierra Pro >>>>>>> Express, ExpressPCB, and AC Advanced Circuits. ?Do you think I >>>>>>> made the >>>>>>> right choice? ?Do you have any recommendations? ?I would like to >>>>>>> receive the >>>>>>> board 3-5 days. >>>>>>> T.I.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I've used ExpressPCB for small projects before, but always 2-layer >>>>> stuff. >>>>> I've never had a problem with them, or their boards. >>>>> >>>>> As for being "locked-in" to their software, for an extra $60 (last >>>>> time I checked), they will send you the Gerber files. From there, you >>>>> can import to many of the other programs avail. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Then if you need to make a little change it'll be another $60? >>>> >>>> >>>>> Also, I recall hearing a while ago that a lot of these PCB prototype >>>>> houses are all built at the same place anyway. So, while you might >>>>> see 10 different company names (i.e., resellers), the boards >>>>> themselves all come from the same place. Sorry, I don't remember the >>>>> names of the companies involved, and don't know whether ExpressPCB is >>>>> one of them. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I have also used 4PCB, quite happy so far. They only messed up once >>>> (unapproved Gerber edits) but made good on that with an additional >>>> fast run, on the house. The nice thing is that I always have a real >>>> contact person there. She really helped us when they defaulted to >>>> this dreaded RoHS process which we absolutely did not want. >>>> >>> Not much differnce between tin/lead solder on pads and silver plate >>> *IF* one is not going above (say) 150C. >>> Tin/lead solder and tin/silver solders act esentially the same, so >>> what is the beef? >> >> >> >> Non-RoHS parts on a RoHS PCB usually isn't a good idea. >> > Give at least one good reason...http://www.maxim-ic.com/emmi/faq.cfm Quote "However, reliability of leaded Maxim Integrated Products parts are not guaranteed at higher reflow temperature (above 240�C). Some reference sources show data that define a reduction in solder joint reliability by as much as 33% less than Eutectic solder joints when lead and lead-free metallurgies are mixed." -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
Reply by ●June 29, 20082008-06-29
In article <tYCdnXlXl47nkMPVnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@posted.localnet>,=20 robertbaer@localnet.com says...> mpm wrote: >=20 > > On Jun 21, 10:53=EF=BF=3D3Fam, Hauke D <hau...@zero-g.net> wrote: > >=20 > >>Hi, > >> > >>I've had good experiences with Advanced Circuits (http://www. > >>4pcb.com/). Make sure to use their free FDM service (http://www.freedfm=.com/), even if you don't end up going with them for> >>manufacturing. > >> > >>ExpressPCB is only good for quick-and-dirty stuff. Their advantage is > >>that they're cheap and their design software is pretty simple to use, > >>but the big disadvantage is that it locks you in to their software. > >>Also I've never done 4-layer stuff with them; I believe they're also > >>kind of limited in that department. They're great for quick-and-dirty > >>stuff though. > >> > >>Regards, > >>-- Hauke D > >> > >>On Jun 21, 4:19 pm, "Talal Itani" <tit...@verizon.net> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>Hello, > >> > >>>I need to have a 4-layer board made, a prototype, 2 boards, nothing fa=ncy.> >>>I did some research in this newsgroup and I narrowed it down to Sierra=Pro> >>>Express, ExpressPCB, and AC Advanced Circuits. =EF=BF=3D3FDo you think=I made the> >>>right choice? =EF=BF=3D3FDo you have any recommendations? =EF=BF=3D3FI=would like to receive the> >>>board 3-5 days. > >> > >>>T.I.- Hide quoted text - > >> > >>- Show quoted text - > >=20 > >=20 > > I've used ExpressPCB for small projects before, but always 2-layer > > stuff. > > I've never had a problem with them, or their boards. > >=20 > > As for being "locked-in" to their software, for an extra $60 (last > > time I checked), they will send you the Gerber files. From there, you > > can import to many of the other programs avail. > >=20 > > Also, I recall hearing a while ago that a lot of these PCB prototype > > houses are all built at the same place anyway. So, while you might > > see 10 different company names (i.e., resellers), the boards > > themselves all come from the same place. Sorry, I don't remember the > > names of the companies involved, and don't know whether ExpressPCB is > > one of them. > >=20 > > -mpm > ExpressPCB stuff comes from Mulino OR and at one time i knew the name==20> of the "parent" company that will do much "fancier" boards. >=20 >=20Don't mix up ExpressPCB and PCB Express. The latter is a division of=20 Sunstone, which builds boards in Mulino, Oregon. Sunstone gives me good=20 boards and I live close enough that the free UPS ground shipping gets me=20 boards the day after shipment. Sunstone also has their own free PCB=20 suite, PCB123.=20 http://www.pcb123.com/ I now order all my PCBs from Sunstone, so I'm a biased reporter. I've=20 been a fan of theirs since their customer service techs helped me=20 through some problems with an older, low-cost layout suite. They're=20 still helping me through some problems with bigger 4-layers boards since I've converted to PADS. Mark Borgerson
Reply by ●June 29, 20082008-06-29
Mark Borgerson wrote:>Don't mix up ExpressPCB and PCB Express. >The latter is a division of Sunstone[...] >Sunstone also has their own free PCB suite, PCB123.Pad2Pad, ExpressPCB, & PCB123 are all essentially the same thing. They are all lock-in-ware. Their output is NOT portable between fab houses. None of them produce Gerbers.
Reply by ●June 29, 20082008-06-29
On Jun 29, 5:34=EF=BF=BDpm, JeffM <jef...@email.com> wrote:> Mark Borgerson wrote: > >Don't mix up ExpressPCB and PCB Express. > >The latter is a division of Sunstone[...] > >Sunstone also has their own free PCB suite, =EF=BF=BDPCB123. > > Pad2Pad, ExpressPCB, & PCB123 are all essentially the same thing. > They are all lock-in-ware. > Their output is NOT portable between fab houses. > None of them produce Gerbers.Jeff - your information is incorrect. For $60, ExpressPCB will definitely send you a Gerber file. I know this from first hand experience. (The others mentioned also might, but I can't say) I also concur that it is not the best approach if you do enough boards to justify "better" schematic capture / PCB layout software (i.e., in- house). But if you want to port the boards to production fabrication (offshore), you certainly can obtain Gerbers from ExpressPCB. -mpm
Reply by ●June 30, 20082008-06-30
mpm wrote:>JeffM wrote: >>Pad2Pad, ExpressPCB, & PCB123 are all essentially the same thing. >>They are all lock-in-ware. >>Their output is NOT portable between fab houses. >>None of them produce Gerbers. > >Jeff - your information is incorrect. >Thank you for interpolating my post. I assure you that was not necessary. I repeat: This "free" software does not *PRODUCE* Gerbers. If you use it, you are LOCKED IN to a single fab house. What I am saying is that to call itself an ECAD Package, software should be able to generate Gerbers ON ITS OWN. What you are describing meets the classic definition of CRIPPLEWARE.>For $60, ExpressPCB will definitely send you a Gerber file. >I did NOT say there was no way to PURCHASE Gerbers. ...AND PAY *AGAIN* AFTER THE SLIGHTEST CHANGE. If that's what YOU want, fine. Full disclosure for the other folks is another thing. Most people want to know what the cards up the sleeve are. . . ...and it appears you STILL haven't read this: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thread/ffb3958a0de506f9?q=instead-click-on+THAT-*-link+*-Reply-at-the-bottom-*-*-*+DO-NOT+More.Options+blockquoting+other.people's.sigs+weird-looking.posts
Reply by ●June 30, 20082008-06-30
"JeffM" <jeffm_@email.com> wrote in message news:ec31dfd9-b52f-4894-8ada-b0c9cc49b67c@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...> mpm wrote: >>JeffM wrote: >>>Pad2Pad, ExpressPCB, & PCB123 are all essentially the same thing. >>>They are all lock-in-ware. >>>Their output is NOT portable between fab houses. >>>None of them produce Gerbers. >> >>Jeff - your information is incorrect. >> > Thank you for interpolating my post. > I assure you that was not necessary. > > I repeat: This "free" software does not *PRODUCE* Gerbers. > If you use it, you are LOCKED IN to a single fab house. > > What I am saying is that to call itself an ECAD Package, > software should be able to generate Gerbers ON ITS OWN. > > What you are describing > meets the classic definition of CRIPPLEWARE. > >>For $60, ExpressPCB will definitely send you a Gerber file. >> > I did NOT say there was no way to PURCHASE Gerbers. > ...AND PAY *AGAIN* AFTER THE SLIGHTEST CHANGE. > > If that's what YOU want, fine. > Full disclosure for the other folks is another thing. > Most people want to know what the cards up the sleeve are.If the ExpressPCB package was really top-notch, and offered for free, I could understand them locking you in without Gerbers. But I seem to remember it was mostly a drafting package that had very limited capabilities compared to (of course) PADS, but there were other free or very inexpensive packages that had better capabilities and actually created Gerbers. I tried to check pricing from PCBexpress, and I got this: "Warning: mysql_pconnect(): Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock' (2) in /home/pcbexpress.com/html/products/utls.inc.php on line 25 We're sorry...please try this process again later." I'd like to compare them to pcbfabexpress. I guess I'll "try again later". Paul
